Talk:Search engine optimization

My apologies for knockin out all the external links. There was some discussion in comments (and comments only) , without any signatures. Forgive me for not wanting to try and trace back *every single* line to see if it originates from an SEO or not.

If we feel there should be external links here anyway, please put them back, and motivate each addition here. Sorry to be so With Extreme prejudice about this, but I've been fwapping SEOs all day, and I'm losing my patience. :-P Kim Bruning 23:28, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

The issue isn't who put them here, it's what they link to. Most of these links to informative, non-commercial sites. I think there were more than needed, but still... -- Jmabel 00:08, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

You're probably right to a degree. Maybe I'm too paranoid. OTOH, see Nigritude_ultramarine. Kim Bruning 00:32, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Sure. But as the article discusses, there is ethical and unethical SEO. I agree that such a competition (further) encourages unethical SEO. However, at least one of the links you deleted was to Google's statement on what they consider unethical! -- Jmabel 00:34, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

*nod* Mainly because the list of links was growing too long, and no fast way to check if it had been tampered with. So the baby got thrown out with the bathwater (to quote a saying). I posted one possible solution to prevent this in future here. I'd be interested in hearing other ideas.

Incidentally one of the links you reinstated was actually an advertisement anyway. Kim Bruning 00:38, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

The Ethical SEO paper you put back is probably borderline. In fact, almost everything to do with SEO is borderline. Ugh. I'll stop editing for now and cool down first. Kim Bruning 00:46, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Subtle Adverts

Keep your eyes open, SEOs sometimes have websites which at first glance seem to be a reasonable tutorial or text, but in the end it turns out they're advertising anyway (after you've clicked through page after page after page). Kim Bruning 17:50, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

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Title Change

What's with the title change? "Search Engine Optimization" or "SEO" is almost universal usage, over 10,000,000 and 7,000,000 Google hits, respectively. "Searchability optimization" seems like a completely novel coinage, never used by anyone. -- Jmabel 06:30, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I asked Hfastedge the same question on their talk page, and am awaiting their answer. Kim Bruning 08:40, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I asked on Hfastedges' talk page, discussion copied to here:

Hmm, why did you move Search_engine_optimization -> Searchability optimization ? Kim Bruning 01:19, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Basic english. I strongly care that the term be corrected. the search engine itself is not being optimized. The pages that are being optimized. Hfastedge 02:40, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Ah right, well, if you'd be so kind as to explain that to the other folk(s) on Talk:Searchability_optimization, I'll copy your comment there and reply there also. :) Kim Bruning 09:19, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

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It's nice that you're trying to correct basic english :-) Unfortunately these SEO folks seem to have coined a new term, and they're sticking with it. It might be wiser to use the actual term these folks are using in their adverts and so, else things get rather confusing. Kim Bruning 09:24, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Precisely. Wikipedia is supposed to follow common usage rather than invent new terms where common terms exist. It's not our job to be prescriptive grammarians. Please let's move this back. -- Jmabel 02:15, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to bite the bullet and move this back. -- Jmabel 23:24, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

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A long standing link to a non commercial site was cut. admittedly it was initially part of a search engine optimisation competition, but that competition is now long over and the page in question is a perfect example of SEO in practise. I will restore the link, please explain why you feel it is out of place before deleting, thank you Serps 21:50 17 May 2004 (GMT)

Of all the nerve! Kim Bruning 22:53, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

I cannot understand why this disturbs you so much. The topic of this wiki page is search engine optimization. It provides a little basic information on the subject but does not explain the tactics often used by SEO's,

The page I provided the link to, is an example of a web page that has been optimized for a set word. This is a practical example of search engine optimization. The page in question is a perfect example of search engine optimization and as such the link to it is not out of place here. You may not be interested in the subject of search engine optimization, but I can assure you thousands of people are, and may like to see an example. I have not restored the link, but would like to here your justification of why it should not be restored. Serps 19:20 18 May 2004 (GMT)

OF ALL THE NERVE! That page was link-pushing Nigritude Ultramarine, at the freaking top of the page even. And why haven't you been banned from wikipedia yet? Kim Bruning 18:51, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

"Link-pushing" as you describe it, is a tactic used in search engine optimization. As this wiki page is about that subject it is appropriate to provide an example of this. As I mentioned earlier the page in question is deliberately optimized for search engines, the fact you don't like it is irrelevant. The reason I am not banned from wikipedia, is because I can have sensible discussions without shouting or resorting to abuse. I write on-topic, and provide links that are on-topic. If you do not like discussing the topic of search engine optimization, why are you contributing to this page? Please feel free to email me, if you would prefer to carry on this discussion away from wikipedia. Serps 21:20 18 May 2004 (GMT)

A discussion on unethical behaviour is one thing. Actually contributing to that unethical behaviour is another.

Alright. While I quite frankly have quite grave doubts as to your sincerity, let's assume for the moment that you are indeed sincere.

If you'd like to present a demonstration page, how about creating a page with a fictional term that's not actually used in any serps-based competition past, present or future, and then linking to that?

Note that at no point in time should you link to sim64 on wikipedia, since that site is abusing google ranking at this point in time. I do not believe wikipedia should be contributing to that abuse.

Kim Bruning 22:27, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Problem with the search engine

I don't know it this is the right place to post this, but I have discovered a problem with the search engine when searching for "History of Greenland". The History_of_Greenland article doesn't show up, in fact I have to use Google to find the page, but it doesn't work either. The first hit is just the Greenland article, where I can access the History... article, but it's the error that's important.

--FePe 22:33, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I'll explain on his user talk page about search being turned off. -- Jmabel 01:03, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Ethics

The article currently says, "[V]irtually all SEO methods are considered to be unethical by a significant group of people." I think that is (1) vague and weaselly: "a significant group of people" and (2) probably wrong, in terms of any actually significant group of people. Certainly it is ethical to create a content-rich site and submit it to search engines, which is SEO recommendation number one, exactly what (for example) Wikipedia does, a very effective SEO strategy. One step down from that, I don't think any "significant" number of people think it is unethical to research what vocabulary people tend to use in searching for the topic(s) you are covering and try to stick to the wordings that are more normal, hence more likely to get your site found in actual searches.

Unless someone can make a case to the contrary, I would like to drop that phrase and replace it with discussion of the ethics (or otherwise) of particular SEO methods. -- Jmabel 23:15, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's been 3 days. No one has responded. I'm editing accordingly. -- Jmabel 02:57, Jun 6, 2004 (UTC)

SEO Glossary

Link to http://www.seo-glossary.com/ placed by User:82.92.150.45 , looks clean so far. We'd probably want to make a wikipedia 'list of SEO terms' sometime. Site looks like a good guide to start with. :-) Kim Bruning 15:44, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Didn't we reach consensus against these?

[On the basis of Kim's remark that follows, I've edited the following comment, to remove the link even from the talk page. Spaces inserted after "http://" to break the links -- Jmabel 22:07, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)] The following links were recently re-added to the article. I've moved them here, because I seem to remember we'd reached consensus a while back against including these. They are imaginably slightly useful, but they are not particularly encyclopedic, and they are commercial.

• [http:// www.seomasters.com/meta-tags-generator.php Meta Tags Generator]
• [http:// www.seomasters.com/meta-tag-analyzer/ Meta Tag Analyzer]

-- Jmabel 07:56, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

And thank you for adding an extra point to this persons' google rank, I'd wager.  :-/ . Kim Bruning 08:41, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Observation (worth including?)

It's now almost impossible to search for a review of any consumer product on Google without about 70% of the results being price comparison sites or sites selling the product in question; invariably actual reviews don't appear until the third or fourth page anyway. Worth figuring out a way of mentioning this consequence of careless SEO? Sockatume 12:57, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, ideally by citing a published article (on the web or elsewhere) talking about this phenomenon. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:31, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

I'll get on it at some point then. Sockatume 23:43, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

External link

I'm usually very skeptical on the addition of external links to this article by anonymous users, but I want to specifically request the retention of the recently added #1 Search Engine Optimisation Blog. I was very impressed with the content. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:09, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION

Seems to be an unlikely term to have "taken off", and surpass:

* SEARCH ENGINE RANKING
* SEARCH ENGINE PLACEMENT
* SEARCH ENGINE POSITIONING

Initially, these terms were more popular; it is interesting that SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION became the chosen term, and also, SEO become the chosen term to describe BOTH the professionals and the profession.

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Here are one of the earliest uses of the term:

[[1]http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=%22search+engine+optimization%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=14&as_maxm=9&as_maxy=1997&filter=0]

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--! ! 18:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)