Template:Did you know nominations/Heramba

Heramba

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• ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with fearsome rites which prescribed killing a victim?

• Reviewed: Dada Masiti

Created by Redtigerxyz (talk). Self nominated at 13:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC).

• New enough, long enough, the hook is cited/short enough/interesting, but a little confusing. I think it can be written better grammatically. QPQ Done. Article conforms to Wikipedia policy. Jeremy112233 ^{(Lettuce-jibber-jabber?)} 21:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• I replaced "prescribed to kill a victim" with "prescribed killing a victim". MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 01:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks User:Mandarax. User:Jeremy112233, can you please check Mandarax's improved wording.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

What meaning of "prescribe" is being used here? The killing of the victim is not mandated by the rites. Also the use of "fearsome" is obviously used as a substitute for the "fearful" of the source which strikes me as an adjectival flourish rather than an attempt to convey any real information. Belle (talk) 08:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Belle, taking a cue from your copyedit. ALT ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which the adept can cause the target to be killed? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Jeremy112233, is the ALT acceptable?Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:40, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

The term "adept" is confusing in this sense. Something simpler like "rites, through which an individual can cause their target", in order for most readers to understand what you are trying to convey. Jeremy112233 ^{(Lettuce-jibber-jabber?)} 15:49, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, User:Jeremy112233. ALT2 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites, through which an individual can cause their target to be killed?--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:47, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

That fixed it, I think the article is good to go now. Jeremy112233 ^{(Lettuce-jibber-jabber?)} 16:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Pulled ALT2 from prep. Wikipedia's MP can't be saying that certain rites actually kill people (unless they actually do, I suppose). Maybe something like

ALT3 ... that the rites of Heramba (pictured) purport to allow their adepts to inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death?

-- but I'm not comfortable concocting a new hook on the fly. (I see adept was rejected earlier, but it's exactly the right word in this context. In any event the hook that was promoted certainly is inappropriate.) EEng (talk) 02:21, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

EEng, IMHO "purport" is editorizing. The reference uses the "can" tone. Also the rites of Heramba suggests "all" rites, also they are only connected to Heramba. There are six Tantric abhicara rituals, not solely associated with this deity; there are other deities. So I suggest "associate". Six rituals, each for a different purpose, one of them is murder. So I had "prescribe" in the original hook. These rituals are recommended as a recipe for murder; we do not comment if they work or not. I also agree that the simpler word "individual" is fit for DYK; but the article should have "adept", a term which confuse readers.

ALT4 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites, which are recommended so that an individual can cause their target to be killed?

EEng, I am sure you can suggest something better than ALT4. :) Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not setting myself up as the person who can compose the best hook all the time. Though I'm happy to contribute what I can along those lines, I'm primarily interested in keeping bad hooks from reaching the main page. Purport is exactly the right word -- it allows description of a claim, with an implication of skepticism. If the source uses a can tone, then it's either a primary source which really believes the claim, and so probably isn't a source we should be using, or it's a secondary source which speaks from the point of view of the belief system it's describing, knowing that the reader will understand that it (the source) it doing that for descriptive convenience, and isn't attesting to the truth of the belief (and this latter, BTW, is the tone adopted in the article).

Not sure I understand the issue with the other deities and so on, but perhaps one of these satisfies that concern:

ALT5 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, it is believed, one may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death?

ALT6 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, their adepts believe, one can inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death?

The bad stuff other than death I added because that's what the article says, but if for some reason you want to just leave it at death that's certainly fine with me. EEng (talk) 15:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

EEng, ALT5 is the most neutral, accurate and hooky IMO but possibly "on his victim" will make it clearer. ALT7 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, it is believed, one may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death on his victim? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

"one ... his" is a little unusual. How about

ALT8 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, it is believed, one may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death on a victim? EEng (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

BTW "it is believed" can sometimes be problematic when it's a claim like "largest ice cream cone ever", but here it's clear it's something that's believed by... well, by whoever it is that believes it. EEng (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Good with ALT8. Striking all other ALTs to avoid confusion. EEng, thanks for hook. Do we need the green tick again or we are good to go?Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:43, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

It's always a good idea to have The Green One at bottom. Here... I'll have my slave do it...

Ta DA! 05:24, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

ALT8 to prep2. Oh, wait... I'm changing "it is believed" to "some believe" -- I hope that's OK. EEng (talk) 13:37, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• I have been uncomfortable with this hook and its several variations for some time. Last night I altered it to remove the "it is believed" phrase which I think had obvious problems, but I still felt uneasy. Today I went back the queue, saw this hook again, and decided it still had serious problems, which I attempted to rectify on the fly with the following:
• (ALT9): ... that the deity Heramba, protector of the weak, is associated with rites for inflicting harm on one's enemies?

- Redtigerxyz quickly reverted back to the previous hook, so there was little choice but to pull the nomination back here for further discussion.

My concern with the original hook selected is that it may give a highly misleading and prejudicial impression to the reader. The reader is introduced to the topic with a reference to "rites [which] may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death on a victim". In the first paragraph in the article, he then reads that the associated deity "is popular in Nepal". Later, a section called "worship" reinforces the impression that Heramba is associated primarily with vengeance against one's enemies.

This bothers me a great deal because it inevitably leaves the impression that a large chunk of the Nepalese population spends its time muttering imprecations against their "enemies" in the temple. It also arguably presents Hinduism itself in a negative light. I would describe these as exceptional ideas requiring exceptional sources, but the article clearly doesn't contain them. What the sources do say is that Heramba is seen as a "protector of the weak" and I think it highly likely that this is the quality most appreciated by worshippers. We need to be very careful on Wikipedia not to inadvertently disparage or stereotype other peoples or their cultural practices. So I remain opposed to the original hook, and stand behind my proposed ALT. Gatoclass (talk) 05:34, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I might add that I think the article could also use a tweak or two. Gatoclass (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, for Pete's sake! (Note: Not intended as blasphemy -- see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive844#Abuse_by_User:EEng) For that matter maybe we shouldn't imply that people in Nepal believe that the way to protect the weak is to inflict harm on people. By this reasoning we can't have a hook that says, "DYK, that the God of the Old Testement describes himself as 'a jealous God'" (after appropriate wrangling over whether the G is capitalized and whether himself should be himself/herself/itself, of course). We are entitled to rely that the reader's native shrewdness will allow him (or her) to understand that the hook highlights only a single aspect of a complex belief system -- we only get 200 characters, remember, so it's kind of a Holy Twitter.

As to what proportion of the population believes this or that, I tried to address that with ALT6 above, and note my comments here

I think there's a slight chance we'll get pushback for "it is believed" which is why I changed it [to "some believe"], but no big deal either way

Yes, once again my crystal ball proves prescient! (Note: Not intended as an admission that I practice conjuring, soothsaying, or other darks arts.) EEng (talk) 06:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) User:Gatoclass, The new hook mixes two traditions: the heterodox Tantra and the orthodox Brahmanical Hinduism. "Protector of the weak" is from the the latter and inflict harm from the former. He is an important Tantric deity; besides his mainstream worship so I don't think it is UNDUE to focus on one of the facets of a complex deity. Also, how does Hinduism become negative if adherents pray for destruction of enemies? In many ancient cultures, warriors go to the gods for destruction of foes; Athens prays to Athena; Troy to Apollo; Buddhists approach Mahakala; Hindus pray to warrior/Tantric deities like Kali, Bhairava, Durga, Heramba. I also do not understand how "This form is particularly popular in Nepal" translates into "it inevitably leaves the impression that a large chunk of the Nepalese population spends its time muttering imprecations against their "enemies" in the temple." Anyways, I am adding a hook from the mainstream tradition:

ALT10 ... that the god Heramba (pictured), protector of the weak, is worshipped for the destruction of one's enemies and gaining fearlessness to face them?

--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:02, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

What improvements in the article are needed? Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that when you say something like Heramba "is worshipped for the destruction of one's enemies and gaining fearlessness to face them" you are implying that is all, or mainly what he is worshipped for, when we don't have sufficient evidence for that. When you suggest that an entire cultural group is regularly worshipping a deity "for the destruction of [their] enemies" that is clearly an inappropriate impression to leave, unless you have impeccable sources to demonstrate it. So I don't think this is an appropriate ALT either. Gatoclass (talk) 07:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, what about ALT6 (or maybe ALT3, about which there was some concern I didn't grasp)? EEng (talk) 07:11, 1 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. Gatoclass, I do share your concern to some extent. If we offend the wrong people we may all find ourselves the victims of delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death -- and then who will watch over DYK? However, if we're lucky all we'll get is the delusions, which won't be a problem since many delusional people function quite well at DYK.