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Talk:2024 Uttar Pradesh stampede

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Why is this article being called a stampede? It was a crush![edit]

Main articles: Stampede § Human stampedes and crushes, and Crowd collapses and crushes

I see some flip/flopping of the name, so I won't get involved in the move war. Descriptions of the event make it very clear that there was a gross failure of policing.

Al Jazeera and Sky say "stampede" but fail to justify their choice of words. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 23:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nineteen of the article's sources say stampede, while only three refer to it as a crush. Celjski Grad (talk) 09:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 July 2024[edit]

2024 Uttar Pradesh stampede → 2024 Uttar Pradesh crowd crush – See above comment. Many news sources call it a "stampede", but this is usually a misnomer, as most "stampedes" are actually crowd crushes. Natg 19 (talk) 00:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not all news sources are as reliable as scholarly sources. The WP:COMMONNAME argument does not apply here:

Opposition mostly focused on the term "stampede" being more commonly used in reliable sources. However, WP:COMMONNAME is not the only aspect of the article titles policy, and in fact states, "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources
— User:buidhe 13:37, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, WP:CONSISTENT applies now because there is a precedent of consensus to use "crowd crush" for humans. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 04:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This close is only relevant if there are RS asserting it is inaccurate to call this tragic 2024 event a stampede. (t · c) buidhe 05:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect, it was easy to find RS:

Although much of the media coverage has described this event as a crowd “stampede”, this obscures failings in how the event was planned and run.

, plus an entire "It’s not a crowd ‘stampede’" section[1] and republishing from other reliable sources.[2][3] Since it is a secondary source criticizing some other primary news reports, the section "A primary source makes a claim that is explicitly called out as wrong by reliable secondary sources." in Wikipedia:When_sources_are_wrong#How_can_we_tell_a_source_is_wrong? should apply. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 05:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Hinduism-related topics notice board, WikiProject Death, Noticeboard for India-related topics, and WikiProject Disaster management have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPathtalk 08:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, as nineteen of the article's sources refer to it as a stampede, while only three refer to it as a crush. Celjski Grad (talk) 09:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support. Rename as per WP:COMMONNAME as widely, RS have referred to this incident as a "crowd crush" or "crush". As per above, The Conversation addresses other RS calling it a stampede, writing that this "obscures failings in how the event was planned" in this article.
Some more sources calling it a crush:
1. More than 120 killed in crush at India religious event by BBC
2. Crush at India religious event kills more than 120, mostly women by CNN
3. Scores of people fell to their deaths in an open sewer during crush at religious event in India by The Independent
4. At least 116 killed in crush at Hindu gathering in northern India, say officials by The Guardian
Further, The New York Times, has an article titled, Stampede at Religious Gathering in India Kills More Than 100 but describes it as a "crush" at least three times in the same article.
As per WP:TITLE the new title would resemble similar articles such as 2023 Brazzaville crowd crush, Astroworld Festival crowd crush or Sanaa crowd crush. Lord Clayton7 (talk) 12:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Not this event specifically, but these scholarly observations on the stampede/crush debate are particularly relevant:

If you look at the analysis, I've not seen any instances of the cause of mass fatalities being a stampede. People don't die because they panic. They panic because they are dying.

— Keith Still, professor of crowd science at Manchester Metropolitan University[4]
and

... far from mass panic occurring, being in an emergency can create a common identity among those affected. A consequence of this is that people are cooperative and altruistic towards others – even when among strangers, and/or in life–threatening situations.[5]

— Cocking, Drury and Reicher

are we to give more credence to sloppy tabloid journalism than scientific studies and better quality news sources where the journalists have taken time to review those studies? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Feliciani, Claudio; Haghani, Milad (2024-07-03). "Deadly crowd crush at Indian religious gathering shows how dangerous leaving an event can be". The Conversation. Retrieved 2024-07-04.
  2. ^ "Deadly crowd crush at Indian religious gathering shows how dangerous leaving an event can be". UNSW Sites. Retrieved 2024-07-04.
  3. ^ "Deadly crowd crush at Indian religious gathering shows how dangerous leaving an event can be". Yahoo News. 2024-07-03. Retrieved 2024-07-04.
  4. ^ Benedictus, Leo (3 October 2015). "Hajj crush: how crowd disasters happen, and how they can be avoided". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2 July 2019. Retrieved 4 October 2015.
  5. ^ Cocking, Christopher; Drury, John; Reicher, Steve (November 2012). "The psychology of crowd behaviour in emergency evacuations: Results from two interview studies and implications for the Fire and Rescue Services". Irish Journal of Psychology. 30 (1): 59–73. doi:10.1080/03033910.2009.10446298.
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