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Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Does look a bit weird but I think the supporters have put up a convincing enough argument. Clearly they've shown the proposed title is the common name in official publications and although Wikipedia favours independent sources over official ones, the only time independent sources were brought up (by BDD) they were reasonably well refuted. Jenks24 (talk) 11:12, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Austin Peay State Governors and Lady Governors → Austin Peay State Governors and Lady Govs – This page was wrongly renamed, since the official name of the women's teams is the "Lady Govs," not the "Lady Governors.". --Relisted. Andrewa (talk) 02:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC) --Relisted. Armbrust The Homunculus 12:30, 25 April 2014 (UTC) GWFrog (talk) 14:42, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's not very conclusive. They use the "Govs" nickname a lot, including for men's teams. Since "Lady Governors" is a bit long, it makes sense that it would get abbreviated more often. The longer form has usage outside of Wikipedia. --BDD (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Those "usage(s) outside of Wikipedia" are ALL by University of Louisville or people selling tickets for a Louisville vs APSU women's basketball game; they are NOT by APSU... And yes, APSU often uses Govs for the men... but they clearly state that the men's teams are nicknamed the "Governors" while they also consistently state that the women's teams' nickname is the "Lady Govs" in their media guides and in their game notes as well as in their press releases and website news stories... Being "strange" does not make it untrue... GWFrog (talk) 04:42, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relisting comment. While the official name doesn't count for much in terms of article name policy, we've been given no evidence that the current name is more commonly used, so the previous undiscussed move [1] should be reversed... except that it's not that simple. This previous move was itself reversing another even earlier undiscussed move [2]. And neither of the users who performed these moves have commented on this RM, although both are currently active editors. Relisting again, and I've given them each a heads-up on their user talk pages. Evidence, either way? Andrewa (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ultimate authority on this matter should be the official athletics website which undoubtedly states the name of the women's teams as Lady Govs! How difficult can that be? The Ink Daddy! (talk) 00:26, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • People often assume that, where an official name exists for the subject of a Wikipedia article, that name is ipso facto the correct title for the article, and that if the article is under another title then it should be moved. In many cases this is contrary to Wikipedia practice and policy. In other words, WP:official names, from which that quote of course comes and which was linked to above, was written to address exactly the issue you raise. And many notices have referred you to the article naming policy, which says the same thing. Andrewa (talk) 03:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for lack of sufficient arguments. After over a month of discussion, I think only a no consensus close is appropriate here. --BDD (talk) 17:55, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Favor The University clearly states that the correct name is "LADY GOVS"... As The Ink Daddy! stated, How difficult can that be? GWFrog (talk) 22:48, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Renaming It's as clear as glass to me... Fredref123 (talk) 23:15, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Just to clarify, I'm not seeking to reject the move proposal, just the opposite, and I don't think BDD is either. What we're asking for is a case in terms of the article naming policy, a point which is made in many, many places, some above, some in the RM instructions, some in the headers to edit boxes, and some other places as well. The official names essay is also recommended reading in view of the discussion above.

This article has been moved twice already. It would be good to get it to a stable name. Andrewa (talk) 04:06, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. There is numerical majority in favour of dropping "State" from the title and sources have been provided to show this is the standard practice by reliable sources. SMcCandlish's did not gain a consensus and to be honest would be much better suited to an RfC, as it would affect thousands of articles. I do not think even if there were a consensus for it here and in one or two other obscure RMs it would be enough to change an entire naming structure. Cbl62's alternative proposal also did not gain a consensus and he did not make a case either for or against dropping "State". No prejudice against a new RM for his proposal though. Jenks24 (talk) 10:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]


– The school doesn't use "State" in athletics branding, as its website has a header stating: "Official website of the Austin Peay Governors." Additionally, most sports websites use only "Austin Peay", like ESPN and Sports Network. So per WP:COMMONNAME "State" should be deleted from the titles of all APSU athletics-related articles. I could go on and list 'em all but you get my drift. Arbor to SJ (talk) 07:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rationale that applied to my struck !vote

These are cases where the extra word "State" arguably isn't helpful. I'm not convinced by the "official name" argument (it fails both MOS:TM and WP:OFFICIALNAME, and WP doesn't care about the university's "branding" preferences), but the common name argument is better. Note that this case is clearly distinguishable from most superficially similar cases, because the name of the women's team is different from (it's an abbreviation of) the men's. Otherwise it should probably have been moved simply to Austin Peay Governors, because the "Lady" part would simply be a descriptive adjective for some of the teams.

However: We really do not need this many articles about the same thing. The team name is not independently notable.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  23:33, 24 August 2014 (UTC) (trimmed)[reply]
I don't think many Wikipedians would agree with naming athletic teams articles with the word sports at the end. I'm 50/50 with that idea; I like it, but yet I don't. I like it because it covers all of the sports and non-sports like you said, but I don't like it because it doesn't describe what the team names are. In most universities when the students graduate, they are called whatever the sports teams are called. (i.e. The University of Kansas athletics teams are called Jayhawks, so the alumni are Jayhawks) If anything, I would leave out the "University" part. I'd say just name it Austin Peay athletics or Austin Peay sports. I would say Athletics sounds better. Right now, I'd support the move, as I said above, to the suggested name until the issue can be resolved as whole on Wikipedia for ALL sports team articles. CorkythehornetfanQuestion? 00:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The four concurrent RMs on the same issue are probably sufficient to determine consensus. I didn't say anything about "non-sports". The sports already covered at these articles are not all in the "athletics" divisions of the institutions anyway, which is sometimes limited to track and field. Our heads need not asplode every time either "sport[s]" or "athletic[s]"/"athlete" are used just because they have varying shades of meaning. WP already has too many such arguments. That said, it would be better to have Austin Peay State University athletics, relegate intramurals to their own article, and deal with complaints that "athletics" is a narrower term (to some) than the scope of the article, than to continue these lame Austin Peay State Governors and Lady Govs rename ideas article after article. Let's just standardize on something simple and basically bullet-proof. Leaving out the "University" part doesn't work on all such articles due to ambiguities (potentially including this one - does every school kid in the world already know that there is no US or nation state named Austin Peay?), and it would be better to be both precise and consistent than introduce yet another thing, based on nothing but shortness, for people to argue about on a case-by-case basis, article after article.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:35, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aside - In American sports terminology, American colleges and mainstream sports media all use the word "athletics" in its generic sense as referring to all sports, and not just the running, jumping, and throwing sports that most Commonwealth countries usually refer to as "athletics," and Americans call "track and field." Americans use the words "sports" and "athletics" interchangeably. In fact, most American universities have an "athletics department" or an "athletics association" that manages all of its varsity sports teams. Attempting to draw a distinction in meaning between the American usage of "sports" and "athletics" is a fruitless quest. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:14, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The consensus naming pattern for American college sports articles is well established across the WikiProjects for college football, college basketball and college baseball, and all of the other college sports follow the same patterns. It is composed of the university or college's short name (e.g., "Florida State University" becomes "Florida State") which is added to the team's mascot (e.g., "Seminoles") for a complete team name ("Florida State Seminoles"), The only variations on this naming pattern are those in which a minority of women's teams still retain some formulation of "Lady ____" in their official team names. These are not only the consensus naming conventions on Wikipedia, but they track the official names of the teams as well as the majority practice in the mainstream sports media. Anyone wanting to change the Wikipedia college sports naming conventions to something different needs to explain why we should abandon best practice under the Wikipedia article naming guidelines, including WP:COMMONNAME. When established consensus, the official name and the common name are all in agreement, there's really not much to discuss. Bottom line: SMcCandlish's proposal above demonstrates unfamiliarity with these conventions, and should be rejected. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment WOW!!! You start with a simple little request to adjust to the correct name usage, and someone jumps in and makes it '"asplode" into something totally different, creating a completely different argument while maintaining that, "...WP already has too many such arguments..." If SMcCandlish was going for satire, as the term "asplode" would imply, the mark was missed by rather a wide margin... Sheesh... GWFrog (talk) 17:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support requested name change but wholly reject SMcCandlish's proposal. The evidence for moving Austin Peay State Governors and Lady Govs to Austin Peay Governors and Lady Govs is there for me to support that request. However, SMcC's proposal of changing literally tens of thousands of article names, navbox names, and category names to "Foo University sports" is off-base and ridiculous, frankly speaking. Quite literally 98%+ of media outlets refer to United States college sports teams, i.e. WP:COMMONNAME, to "Foo Nickname." Also, it seems as if SMcC is attempting to (wrongfully) standardize all college sports names so that he doesn't have to be bothered participating in more consensus-reaching discussions on specific schools whose nickname might be different by gender – it's as if the proposal is "I'm personally tired of participating in these (very few) case-by-case discussions and so, to save myself trouble in the future, I'm going to attempt to unilaterally screw over broad-reaching and historical consensus of these naming conventions." There has never been something on Wikipedia I've ever been more opposed to in my ~8 years as an active editor than this nonsense. Strongest oppose possible to that. Jrcla2 (talk) 17:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the proposed change. I suggest following the precedent used at Tennessee Volunteers. When women's sports teams became the "Lady Volunteers", the name for the umbrella article Tennessee Volunteers was not changed. Instead, a redirect was created for Tennessee Lady Volunteers directing viewers to the umbrella article. That seems like the best way to deal with it for Austin Peay as well -- create Austin Peay Lady Govs as a redirect to Austin Peay Governors. (If there were something gender-specific about the mascot name [e.g., UMass Minutemen and Minutewomen), a different approach would be called for, but in an era where women can be, have been, and are "governors," there is nothing gender-specific about the term "Governors". Frankly, "Lady Govs" strikes me as being a little demeaning, and I'm surprised it has survived.) I am also strongly opposed to SMcC's proposal for the reasons articulated by Jrcla. Cbl62 (talk) 19:58, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Uhhh, Cbl62... The proposal is not to separate the men (Governors) from the women (Lady Govs)... it is to drop the "State" from the 5 article titles, since it is not used by the athletic department... (This is the kind of confusion that results when someone hijacks the discussion and "asplodes" it...) GWFrog (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please excuse my "asploding"... or "assploding" (not sure of the spelling, never heard that word before but quite like it) ... hope I didn't make to much of a mess. Cbl62 (talk) 23:11, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also, other schools that drop "state" from athletics branding: Bowling Green, Missouri Southern, among others. Their wikipedia articles also follow suit. Arbor to SJ (talk) 21:21, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Should it finally move???

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Although all of their women's teams were officially named "Lady Govs" a mere two years ago, currently, Austin Peay no longer refers to any of its women's teams as "Lady Govs." Each and every women's team is now consistently referred to as either "Govs" or "Governors"... GWFrog (talk) 06:33, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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