Talk:Ave Maria (Beyoncé song)/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Wikipedian Penguin (talk · contribs) 01:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello, My love is love and Jivesh. I will be taking on this review. Great work you two. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 01:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Guys, please don't use the rather pretty but annoying {{done}} and {{not done}} templates. They are so hard to read through with the graphic and the bolding. Plain text please.

DAB links and linkrot

• Looks good.

Spotcheck

• FN 2 does not support cited text.
  • Well, I would say . . . Satellites . . . some of the lyrics in all of the songs are really personal. Ave Maria, if I had to say, would be the most personal but most of the love songs are really personal. <--- This is a quote. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:35, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
    • "Knowles worked with Amanda Ghost to re-write the Franz Schubert "Ave Maria" after having co-written "Disappear" in London." - source? —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:48, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Sourced. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:51, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Most of the blockquote can be paraphrased. It discusses their marriage as an inspiration of the writing.
  • I think you know blockquotes are allowed in GAs. I mean this is simply going for GA not for FA. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:35, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Pop music articles have been passing with pretty bad reviews. It's almost as if people have forgotten what is really expected of a GA. Remember what I told you at the "1+1" GAN? I didn't say you have to remove the quote, just trim it. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• I know about that. I can only expect that you know that this has never and will never happen in Beyonce's wiki-project till I am here. :) Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• I have done this. Read my edit summary. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 01:13, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "it does riff on the classic aria, it's not an actual cover" - the word "it" is not in the source provided.
  • Fixed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• FN 7 does not say that the sample is from a rendition by Franz Schubert in particular. It could have been someone else.
  • It is very obvious that the critic was referring to Franz Schubert - the original. He will not refer to any pedestrian singing the song. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• " Knowles' voice shows restraint as she sings in a lower register which gives her more vocal power" - close paraphrasing from FN 8
  • That's exactly why I put the as stated ... there. But anyway, I have re-written it and removed the attribution. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
    • The attribution really does not help. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• " Her vocal range in the song spans from the music note of B♯3 E♯5." - pardon me, I don't know much about music, but the source does not say it is B sharp and E sharp.
  • Nice catch. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• "weaves 'a vivid tale' of a desperate woman." - This entire thing is a quotation, not just the "a vivid tale".
  • Fixed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• "vocally impeccable, but it reads more like recital fodder rather than a true confessional" - WP:LQ needs to be applied here, per source.
  • Fixed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• "Matos Michaelangelo of The A.V. Club wrote that 'Beyoncé has a real flair for grandeur' and the 'big, wide melodies' of 'Halo" and 'Ave Maria' give her enough to work with that" - close paraphrasing from FN 12.
  • Fixed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• FN 16 does not look like MSN Music to me.
  • That's what Metacritic writes when it counts his reviews. But I am changing it. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• "Yes, Beyonce draws on the classic composition for this sweeping number -- and paraphrases Lennon's line about life being what happens while you're making plans. Two bad ideas." - the last part can be easily paraphrased. And does the "Yes" really have to be part of the quotation?
  • Why don't you suggest something then? This is a GAN not FAC. When you review an article for GA, you are are also supposed to suggest something. That's what I have always done and what the ones who review my GANs have done. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Even though that is not my job, try this: "...wrote that Knowles 'draws on the classic composition for this sweeping number' and echos a similar line to John Lennon's quote: 'Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.'." —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Listen Penguin, I know it is not your job. I know that you are not employed here, much less by me. But at the end of the end of the day, we are all volunteers here, right? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:41, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• How is FN 21 reliable?
  • Maybe this will be more than enough. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• "[...] an Irish audience surely cannot sit through the old convent staple 'Ave Maria' without feeling something cold squeeze the heart." - no ellipses in the beginning of quotation, but there must be one after "Ave Maria" as there is "(Knowles' wedding tune)" in the source there.
  • Fixed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• FN 25 does not say anything about "Angel" being performed.
  • What about FN 26? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
    • FN 26 is enough then. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Look at these notes for now. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 12:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Prose comments

Lead

• "'Ave Maria' is a song by American R&B recording artist Beyoncé Knowles, taken from her third studio album I Am... Sasha Fierce (2008)."

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "The song was written by Knowles, Amanda Ghost, Ian Dench, Makeba Riddick, Mikkel Storleer Eriksen and Tor Erik Hermansen while production was handled by Knowles and Stargate." - I feel as though this sentence could be laid out better. I would try "Amanda Ghost, Ian Dench and Makeba Riddick wrote the song in collaboration with its producers Knowles and production duo Stargate. There is no need to name the team members here.

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "As stated by Ghost, 'Ave Maria' was inspired by Knowles' and her own respective marriages." - Unclear sentence. Did you mean "As stated by Ghost, "Ave Maria" was inspired by Knowles' and the two artists' marriages"?

• Actually both the marriage of Knowles and Ghost inspired the song. I mean two marriages. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:26, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Lyrically, "Ave Maria" speaks about being surrounded by friends but still feeling alone." - "It" will do in place of "Ave Maria".

• I don't agree. It has already been used in the previous sentence. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• Doesn't matter. This sentence is beginning with "Lyrically", so it's fine as long as we know what "it" is. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:07, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• Changed to your preference. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:24, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Critical reception towards the song was mixed to positive." - "to positive" is not needed. If it's mixed, it's mixed.

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "simply a pretty normal take" - Why the "pretty" and do you mean "merely a normal take on the original"?

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "The song was part Knowles' set list during her I Am... Tour (2009-10)" - missing word?

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "She additionally performed the song during the 2009 BET Awards."

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Writing and inspiration

• "Ave Maria" was written by Knowles, Amanda Ghost, Ian Dench, Makeba Riddick, Mikkel Storleer Eriksen and Tor Erik Hermansen while production was handled by Knowles and Stargate." - Hmm... how about : ""Mikkel Storleer Eriksen and Tor Erik Hermansen, together under the stage name Stargate, wrote and produced the song with additional writing by Amanda Ghost, Ian Dench and Makeba Riddick." This way, we know who Stargate is.

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "The song was written in Bangladesh, Patchwerk and Silent Sound Studios in Atlanta, Georgia in 2008." - I don't think you are trying to say it was written in Bangladesh?

• No, it's the name of one of the studios. I thought it was clear. Lol. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• For clarification, let's re-order that so that the last studio mentioned is "Bangladesh Studios". It will work better. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• Amanda Ghost is linked twice.

• Fixed Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• She stated that the song was one of the most personal on the entire record." - "entire record" -> "album".

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Composition

• 'Ave Maria' is a 3 minutes and 42 seconds long ballad." ungrammatical. Try: "'Ave Maria' is a ballad that runs for 3 minutes and 42 seconds."

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• I see the second sentence say "Ave Maria: as well. "It" should suffice. The third should replace "Ave Maria" with "The song".

• Done Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Throughout the song, Knowles' voice shows physical control as she sings in a lower register, which allows her to vocalize in a powerful manner." - Can this get some explanation? I'm not really sure a voice shows physical control. It also seems kinda redundant so I suggest cutting "shows physical control as she". The "which allows her to vocalize in a powerful manner" part sounds a bit POVish and awkward.

• Changed to original attribution form. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• This view was shared by Joey Guerra of the Houston Chronicle who wrote that the song weaves "a vivid tale of a desperate woman". Comma after "Chronicle".

• Done. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• Shared by Joey Guerra and who? The author of the Wikipedia article or another journalist?

• This sentence was perfectly alright but I have changed it to echoed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Critical reception

• I'd begin the section with an inviting opening sentence that describes how reception was overall.

• Done. Jivesh1205 (Talk)

• Positive reviews seem to be mixed in with the negative ones. How about one paragraph for positive and another for negative?

• I don't think they are mixed as you say. But I have tried to move some them. And I will not separate them as the one for negative reviews looks very small. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• To be quite frank it really doesn't matter as much. Don't you want the article to be organized? Readers would appreciate that very much. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:37, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Organized? Are you trying to say I write in a disorganized way? It is good as it is. Organisation is not the only thing that counts. How will it feel to see one giant paragraph for positive reviews and a small one for negative reviews? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• If I were trying to say that, I would, straightforwardly. Isn't Wikipedia supposed to give the best experience to readers? The paragraphs wouldn't be as different in size as to look "awful". —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Very fine then. And I have tried separating the paragraphs,. They do not look good at all. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Watch for typos: "wrote wrote that Knowles".

• Done. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• I see that you frequently use the verb "wrote". Even though you already have some, I'd like to see more variety. You don't seem to use the word "said" nor "suggested", whch are perfectly ok. Just be creative.

• Said is a big NO. How can reviewers say? Their reviews are not live or televised. They write and the reviews get published. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• [1] First bullet. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• I still won't use say. You cannot say something on paper. Come on. Say is like using your mouth to convey information. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Whatever. Do what you prefer as long as there is there is more variety than "wrote". —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 14:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• "come[s] off as delicate as her [Knowles'] emotions." - not needed. The bracketed "Knowles" replaces the word "her".

• Done. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Spence D. of IGN Music praised "Ave Maria" saying that it shows Knowles in" - Comma after "Maria".

• Done. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• "critic Robert Christgau wrote" - Isn't it obvious that he's a critic seeing how this is a reception section? Be a bit more specific. The Wikipedia article claims he's an American essayist and journalist.

• Removed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Link PopMatters.

• Done. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Live performances

• Changes were to insignificant to list here so I did them myself: [2] [3] [4]

• Thanks. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Media

• Samples should be used for the music, not the lyrical content. The caption should focus more on the music and Knowles' voice. Some details you could add: ("voice shows restraint" , "with an operatic soprano")

• Really? I have seen FAs doing that. And you participated in one. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Well then, could you at least focus more on the music and vocals? —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I will see what I can do. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Citation formatting

• FN 1: Why is there "Liner Notes" in brackets?

• Removed. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• FN 6: Consensus at WP:RSN lead to the decision that we do not provide URLs for Musicnotes.com refs. The authors of the ref are the writers of the song (real names). Ex: |first1=Beyoncé|last1=Knowles|first2=Amanda|last2=Ghost...

• Am i supposed to put the author manes? But they did not write the music sheet published there. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• The sheet music credits them as the writers. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• They are not the authors of the music sheet, right? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• It doesn't matter. They wrote the music. The credit goes to them. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 14:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Should I list all the producers and writers in the liner notes of the album then? You see how confusing this is getting now Jivesh1205 (Talk) 14:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• No, it's not getting confusing. The album notes do not say who wrote them. The sheet music however does. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 14:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Ahh okay. I did not know that the music sheet published there was written by them. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 14:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• FN 23: Use single quotes for "I Am..." instead of double quotes.

• Done. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• FN 34: Remove "Amazon Inc".

• I normally put that. But I will move it. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Manual of style

• (MOS:LAYOUT) - where is {{Beyonce singles}}? —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• A template was created for the album. The one who added it, removed the old one. I will add i back. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• An important point Jivesh. REmember to add back the template from whichever articles it was deleted. The single album templates would be deleted soon at TFD. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 14:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Sure Avi. Jivesh1205 (Talk)

All done except the music sample. I don't know what to write more. My sincere apologies for my occasional rude attitude (I have inherited it from my parents who are fighting most of the time). Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not gonna lie, I was losing patience. But I understand your personal situation and I feel confident in listing this article as a GA. Congrats to you and My love is love. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I was also loosing patience but not because of you but because of my parents. Penguin, I assure you that I am not a bad person but my real life is not very pleasant. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)