Talk:Prime Minister's Cup

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Requested move 11 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran(talk) 13:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chancellor Cup → Prime Minister's Cup – Correct and proper, more common name Akocsg (talk) 22:50, 10 February 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. –Ammarpad (talk) 06:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Steel1943 (talk) 02:00, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bringing this up for discussion as this move is not technical in nature, but rather makes a WP:COMMONNAME claim that isn't immediately evident. Steel1943 (talk) 02:01, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 09:51, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Steel1943: @Anthony Appleyard: @AlexTheWhovian: I don't know who came up with the name Chancellor Cup originally, it wasn't me. It's simply not correct, and in all reliable sources it's named Prime Minister's Cup, which is the correct translation of the Turkish name. The Laotian one is the national cup and could be renamed that way, or simply name it Laotian Prime Minister's Cup. The Turkish one is definitely more notable and known. Here two major sources: 1, 2. Akocsg (talk) 18:44, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've no position in this; my deletion of the request was simply because another editor had completed it. -- Alex^TW 19:28, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support as correct name. Giant Snowman 13:33, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support as correct name, per additional clarification below. Koncorde (talk) 18:10, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support as correct name, per shown sources. Baki.d (talk) 17:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because the redirect points elsewhere: to Laotian Prime Minister's Cup, which occupied Prime Minister's Cup until it was moved the day of this move request. Category:Prime Minister's Cup also deals with the other event. A quick Google search reveals a range of other Prime Minister's Cups as well. It is not clear from this discussion that the Turkish event is "more notable and known." What about Turkish Prime Minister's Cup or Prime Minister's Cup (Turkey) to distinguish this? On what evidence should this receive the plain title and the other article be moved? Dekimasuよ! 00:57, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose based on what? The point about the link on Wiki is the reason this issue is discussed here. All the other Prime Minister's Cups on google are not related to football. About the notability: on RSSSF the Turkish one is simply labeled as Prime Minister's Cup, see here, while the Laotian one is the national cup and is titled as such (list of Cup winners), see here. Akocsg (talk) 15:31, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

~~1) The website you listed, "Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation," looks to be unofficial and/or maintained by volunteers. Has it been held to be a reliable source on Wikipedia before?~~ 2) The old official site of the Laotian cup called it "Prime Minister's Cup," not "Laotian Prime Minister's Cup." 3) Because I haven't seen any evidence that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the search term "Prime Minister's Cup," I continue to oppose the request. 4) And this has effects on pages that weren't included in the request (2003 Prime Minister's Cup, 2004 Prime Minister's Cup, 2006 Prime Minister's Cup, 2007 Prime Minister's Cup, etc.), plus all links to Prime Minister's Cup would have to be retargeted before it was carried out. As far as I can tell, the base title should be a disambiguation page at the least, and the other page shouldn't have been moved preemptively. Dekimasuよ! 03:16, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another possible meaning: Prime Minister Cup (Go). Based on grammar alone, it should be "Prime Minister's Cup." And here's another: Glossary of sumo terms- "sōridaijin-hai (総理大臣杯), Prime Minister's Cup. Ceremonial cup presented by the sitting Prime Minister or an intermediary to the makuuchi champion at every tournament held in Ryogoku." That was from just a few minutes of searching, so there are probably more possible targets. Dekimasuよ! 03:21, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another at List of domestic Twenty20 cricket competitions#Nepal. Dekimasuよ! 03:50, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Prime Minister's Cup (AFL) is a redirect to List of individual match awards in the Australian Football League. Dekimasuよ! 03:55, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See here. RSSSF is one of the most reliable sources and is used very frequently on Wiki. I don't know why you keep listing examples of non-football competitions. They aren't relevant here. And as I said above, the fact that the Laotian one is linked to Prime Minister's Cup on Wiki until now is no argument to stay that way. Akocsg (talk) 18:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anything using the same name as the requested name, whether a football competition or not, is relevant to changing the article title. If the article title is to be Prime Minister's Cup, it should be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Prime Minister's Cup." I haven't been able to tell from this discussion that the Turkish competition is "much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term," or that it "has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term." Dekimasuよ! 18:54, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For the time being, I have created Prime Minister's Cup (disambiguation). I didn't get put it in the way of this move request, but since we haven't seen any data on the primary topic, I still suggest that the disambiguation page should go to the plain title. Dekimasuよ! 07:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Questions

Question Can we independently verify the correct name in a reliable source beyond the translation of a native speaker? Can we clarify the difference between Başbakan and Başbakanlik? One indicates "Premiership", the other "Prime Minister", ("Chancellor" is also shown as valid, but the political position appears not to exist?). Koncorde (talk) 17:23, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Koncorde: As a native speaker I can tell you that "Prime Minister's Cup" is definitely the correct and idiomatic translation of the Turkish name. Başbakan means Prime Minister, and Başbakanlik Prime Ministry or the Prime Minister's office (Source: [1]). And as you pointed out, there is no Chancellor in Turkey, thus Prime Minister's Cup is the correct name which should be used. Akocsg (talk) 17:41, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Akocsg, always thought Chancellor Cup was a name that made no sense. Redman19 (talk) 13:00, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Btw above I've added RSSSF as source, which should be reliable enough. Akocsg (talk) 17:55, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment: I have moved the pages, but now Chancellor Cup redirects to Laotian Prime Minister's Cup, Let me now if the targets need to be changed. Regards, —usernamekiran(talk) 13:32, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]