Talk:Chavrusa/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I wondered when this would come here...having read it for DYK. Ok, notes below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Some ideas about buffing comprehensiveness first:

needs some sort of definition section right in the beginning.

 DoneYoninah (talk) 14:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

any discussion on why Reform chavrutas are the only ones with 3-4 (i.e. why orthodox didn't call them thus) would buff that section a little.

This development is part of a long history of Reform Judaism "reforming" Orthodox Judaism. On all the other Jewish pages I've worked on, we just give equal time to what each movement (Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform) does – in prayer, in holiday observance, etc. I added another reference, if it's any help. Yoninah (talk) 22:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay - I saw the link to Chavurah - now is this just a semantic distinction? i.e. does a chavurah equal a 3-4 person chavruta? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:54, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The Chavurah article needs work! It is describing the Conservative and Reform concept of the chavurah as a group for prayer, study, and socializing. It does not mention the Orthodox definition of chavurah at all, which is a study group of three or more students. In Orthodox parlance, both chavruta and chavurah refer to study partnerships – a chavruta always means two study partners, and a chavurah means a group of three or more students learning together. A chavurah is not a "bigger" chavruta, because a chavruta is always two students learning one-on-one. In Reform parlance, a chavruta means a study partnership of two, three, four, or however many you want, people. A chavurah is a group that convenes for the purposes of study and socializing. Yoninah (talk) 23:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

....so in other words, the difference between the two words (other than numbers) is a socialisation aspect which is ih chavurah but not chavruta? If this is the case, this would help clarify and delineate in the article......Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll get to that, too. Yoninah (talk) 00:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

 Done Yoninah (talk) 18:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

International chavruta projects is listy - any discussion at all on the benefits or interesting features on technology (when/how/where first used etc.) would be great to put in here.

Good idea. I'll try to get to that. Yoninah (talk) 22:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

 Done I wrote a short introduction to the section, using whatever refs I could find. I have not been able to locate a definitive history of telephone/online chavruta-style learning in a book or online source. Yoninah (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The quotes are great - some articles use boxes a bit like illustrations to adorn a page. I think they'd be good further up the article somewhere talking about the benefits.

 Done Hope I did the boxes right. Yoninah (talk) 14:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah they look good. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

More specifics

.... in the eras of the Tannaim and Amoraim - needs some chronological context (i.e. time) for those unfamiliar with the terms

 Done Yoninah (talk) 14:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

A couple of descriptor words describing who Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld is, to give context to the sentence...

 Done Yoninah (talk) 22:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

More later...Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for starting the review. As we are now in the pre-Passover cleaning season, with the holiday of Passover beginning in less than two weeks, I will try to work on your requests, but the pressure is on! Yoninah (talk) 14:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather get it right than be hasty so I'll take that into consideration. Happy hunting...Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:08, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

• Just a little ping, now that Passover is over, in the hopes of getting work on the review moving again. BlueMoonset (talk) 13:06, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for the ping, and for the breathing space. The Passover dishes are all cleaned up and stored away for next year, so it's back to work! Yoninah (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Right, back into it.....just a couple of things then....Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:29, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The para in the International chavruta projects segment should be sourced if possible.

I knew you would say that. I did source the dates of founding of the telephone chavruta projects in the subsection, but I will try to dig deeper to find something to source this introduction. Yoninah (talk) 10:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The individual organisations listed should not be in bold as we reserve that for titles and names in the lead only....

 Done Okay. Yoninah (talk) 10:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I still can't see what the distinction between an orthodox chavurah and a reform 3-4 person chavruta - is it just the terminology? forgot to strike first time round....

I did another edit on the section; is it clearer now? Yoninah (talk) 10:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah - does look a bit like hair-splitting, but yeah, better....Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:57, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand the way you're interpreting it. In Orthodox Judaism, a chavruta is a 2-person study group, and a chabura is a 3 or more person study group. In Reform Judaism, a chavruta is a 2 to 5 person study group, and a chavura is a study/prayer/social group. There is no prayer or social element in the Orthodox version. Since the article is about chavrutas, the Reform innovation is to enlarge the size of the study group. Yoninah (talk) 12:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

What I mean is, you've done a good job of explaining it - I guess I am bemused by the preciseness of the terms. So the key is the delineation over what one talks about...i.e. there is a much stricter focus on studying the Torah with Orthodox Judaism vs. other branches. Are there discussions or advice then if people stray from what they are supposed to be studying? This might embellish the section a bit.Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Chavruta-style learning is a time-honored approach to studying Talmud, both in yeshiva and out. Orthodox men who are committed to their Torah observance will study Talmud daily, and 99% of them do it with a chavruta. (The recently-departed Israeli gadol and posek Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv was a notable exception – he studied alone for 80 years!) They may spend some time before or after the time slot chatting with their chavruta, but the time set for study is sacrosant. Your question of "people straying from what they are supposed to be studying" simply doesn't exist. If a person's mind wanders, his chavruta will nudge him back on track! And if the chavrutas find they aren't keeping each other focused, they will mutually decide to find themselves other chavrutas.

I started expanding the lead, and think that based on your questions, a little more expansion is in order. I can't do this all at once, but I will try to do some more daily. Yoninah (talk) 21:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Fascinating - now the points you've made here are interesting about the time being sacrosanct and the partner steering a strayer back on track (and would be good to show the essence of in the article). What I generally try to do at GAN is give articles a big as a shove as possible towards FAC, and there is often an interesting story to be told that really gives an article an engaging narrative. I meant to write up somewhere what I'm trying to do...hmmm Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I thought that GA was for articles that aren't necessarily going to make it to FA because of their esoteric subject matter or limited interest. That's why I've been nominating my Orthodox Jewish articles here.

I have spent a lot of time searching for more sources, and am now scraping the bottom of the barrel.

1. I expanded the Origin section by mentioning that studying alone is discouraged, and also adding an explanation of why chavruta-style learning is especially applicable to Talmud study (any more about the nature of Talmud study should be put in the Talmud article).
2. The point about staying awake is already included under Educational Benefits. I added the benefit of strengthening the partner's commitment to his learning, lest he disappoint his chavruta.
3. I found another nice quote from the Talmud about the famous chavruta between Rabbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish.
4. I broke out a new section, Choosing a Chavruta, and added the point about good friends not necessarily making good chavrutas.
5. I added a bit more to Women's Chavrutas.
6. After much searching, I found a reference that talks about Torah Umesorah's pioneering telephone Torah study partnerships. The referenced list that follows backs up the line about online chavrutas expanding in the 2000s.
7. I added some scholarly papers to External Links. Yoninah (talk) 21:39, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, I wonder whether placing the whole text in Reform chavrutas is slotted in under the text in definition as it is about defining what is and is not a chavruta.....

Once these are done, I think we're over the GA line....Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:29, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance: - nice engaging prose.

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources: - one sentence outstanding, but the supporting sentences below are referenced, so it some ways being a stickler about this is like, "The sky is blue" , so I am happy to use common sense here.

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

Overall:

Pass or Fail: - nice, and worth a lookover and a tilt at FAC. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! And thanks for pushing me to improve the page. Best, Yoninah (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)