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Move discussion from User talk :Sroc

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Hi Sroc....I think that policy you cited applies to proper names, not place names. The National Park Service seems to use "John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway" with the comma in the official title of the parkway. See their webpage.--MONGO 06:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@MONGO: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies does not apply exclusively to biographies. It begins:

This page sets out guidelines for achieving visual and textual consistency in biographical articles and in biographical information in other articles; such consistency allows Wikipedia to be used more easily.

The John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway is named after John D. Rockefeller Jr.; it does not make sense to use a comma in one but not the other. Moreover, even if commas were to be included, a comma would also be required after the "Jr." (John D. Rockefeller, Jr., Memorial Parkway) as indicated by various style guides, so the previous title was incorrect in any case. —sroc 💬 14:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The official title of the parkway according to the entity that manages it has a comma between Rockefeller and Jr. Our articles should reflect official spelling and punctuation from the singularly most vital source. The previous title cannot be incorrect if that is how the entity punctuates it. Perhaps had you discussed this first it might have been made clearer to you.--MONGO 15:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The "official" title is wrong as it does not follow the normal conventions in English as supported by the various style guides which consistently say that a comma must come after "Jr." or "Sr." if there is one before. Just because other sources ("official" or otherwise) foul up proper style conventions is no reason for us to follow in their folly. Wikipedia follows its own style guidelines.
Note that "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title" (WP:COMMONNAME; see also WP:OFFICIAL). In any case, Wikipedia routinely corrects incorrect punctuation: "Formatting and other purely typographical elements of quoted text should be adapted to English Wikipedia's conventions without comment provided that doing so will not change or obscure the meaning of the text" (MOS:QUOTE). —sroc 💬 18:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Lol...it does not matter if they do not follow the Chicago Manual of Style....it is the way they punctuate it. Would you change an erroneously punctuated book title to conform with a 1993 alteration in comma usage? The official name has a comma before the Jr. as shown in their website. Perhaps contact the NPS and tell them to switch it? Until they do it is not our charge to switch it for them.--MONGO 23:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Anthony Appleyard: moved John D. Rockefeller, Jr. to John D. Rockefeller Jr. so maybe he can set one of us straight. I have no problem complying with MOS issues but still believe we should reflect official naming and punctuation in this case.--MONGO 23:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, Wikipedia does not blindly follow "official" names. We follow our own style guide which is based on proper English usage and reputable style guides. Just because official sources don't follow proper English language conventions is no reason for us to follow suit. You may also note that there are various other sources that punctuate the name differently (without mismatched commas):
—sroc 💬 05:58, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
None of those actually oversee and manage the entity. Blame the NPS then...I just would prefer we follow their official current punctuation to name our article after the parkway that they are in charge of. They use a comma. Original legislation spelled it as "John D. Rockefeller, Junior, Memorial Parkway"[1], so they did not abbreviate Jr., but they used two commas then, whereby now they only use one, at least on their literature. The entrance signs have no comma at all.--MONGO 06:34, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
By your research, the "official" naming is inconsistent:
  • The legislation gives its official name as "John D. Rockefeller, Junior, Memorial Parkway" (two matched commas)
  • The NPS refers to it as "John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway" (one comma, contrary to English)
  • The entrance signs refer to it as "John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway" (no comma)
Wikipedia guidelines clearly state that we do not blindly follow "official" naming; in this case, the "official" name is unclear anyway. —sroc 💬 08:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see your and Dicklyon's points and agree now that no comma will be fine. I learn something new everyday.--MONGO 17:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Irrelevant. iPod is a trademark, grammar isn't involved as it is a single word, and certainly no commas are involved. The title of this article is an ordinary phrase which also happens to be a name, but we are not bound to follow the punctuation in the "official" name (whichever you regard as the "official" name). It is also ridiculous to have John D. Rockefeller Jr. standardised without a comma and John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway and John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Library with single unmatched commas which are universally contradicted by reputable style guides. Just because the authority doesn't recognise proper punctuation in English is no reason for an encyclopedia to follow suit. —sroc 💬 08:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 March 2015

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/c 19:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


– Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies, which "sets out guidelines for achieving visual and textual consistency in biographical articles and in biographical information in other articles", has recently been revised as § Child named for parent or predecessor (WP:JR) to provide that a comma should not be inserted before "Jr." or "Sr." This follows an RfC discussion which cited numerous style guides which supported that a comma before "Jr." or "Sr." must be accompanied by another comma afterwards (unless at the end of a sentence, etc.) but the trend is to omit the comma entirely. Although some "official" sources may be formatted differently (and various "official" sources may differ), "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title" (WP:COMMONNAME; see also WP:OFFICIAL), and Wikipedia routinely corrects incorrect punctuation in quoted sources (see MOS:QUOTE). Thus, we should follow Wikipedia's style guide. In summary:

  • John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway (incorrect punctuation and against MOS)
  • John D. Rockefeller, Jr., Memorial Parkway (acceptable punctuation but against MOS)
  • John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway (correct punctuation and follows MOS)
  • John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Library (incorrect punctuation and against MOS)
  • John D. Rockefeller, Jr., Library (acceptable punctuation but against MOS)
  • John D. Rockefeller Jr. Library (correct punctuation and follows MOS) —sroc 💬 08:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
When did the Wikipedia style guide change from use-comma to no-comma? Can you give me an exact date? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:51, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): It didn't change; it's been that way since the guidance was first introduced on 25 February 2009:

The use of a comma before Jr. and Sr. has disappeared in modern times, while the use of a comma before a Roman numeral as part of a name (II, III, IV, etc.) has never been accepted. Neither article names nor headers should include a comma before a Jr., Sr., or Roman numeral designation, unless it can be demonstrated that this is the preferred arrangement by the subject or the subject's biographers.

—sroc 💬 05:55, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then, that was just plain wrong. The comma has certainly not "disappeared" before Jr. and Sr.; it's still probably the majority usage. No wonder this has been such a mess. Dohn joe (talk) 16:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than rely on your original research "probably", refer to the style guides below indicating the trend to do away with the commas. CMOS says: "Traditionally, it would be John Smith, Jr., and John Smith III. But beginning with the fourteenth edition of The Chicago Manual of Style (1993), the recommendation is to use no commas in either case..." Grammarbook says: "Traditionally, if a person's name is followed by Sr. or Jr., a comma follows the last name: Martin Luther King, Jr. This comma is no longer considered mandatory." Knox News says: "For example, should 'Jr.' or 'Sr.' in a name be preceded by a comma? Some stylebooks say no, others say yes, but the 'nos' outnumber the 'yeses.'" Our own MOS:COMMA says: "Modern practice is against excessive use of commas..." (and has said so since 2008). —sroc 💬 17:03, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, they are not acceptable punctuation. See below. —sroc 💬 13:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dohn, your search on the library finds (in the first page of 10) 5 with no comma, 4 with 1 comma, and 1 with two commas. Surely this is all we need to see to verify that WP's style is a perfectly acceptable style. Pretty similarly mixed on the parkway. Why fight it? Dicklyon (talk) 04:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's about right. You'll find that the library is pretty evenly split between one comma and none, and the parkway is similarly split. This should be enough to show that the MOS does not currently reflect the acceptability of any of these options in the real world of professionally edited material, and the waste of WP resources to enforce one plurality style over another. Some will always see one version as "correct" and the other two as "incorrect" - and when all are relatively commonly used, we should follow the example of the serial comma and enforce intra-article consistency, while allowing different articles to reflect the diversity of styles out there. Dohn joe (talk) 18:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The Wikipedia rule is for people, not things. It is the official name per the government website and the library website. We wouldn't change it to the "Johnny D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway" (slangy) or the "John D Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway" (no period) or "John D. Rockefeller, Junior. Memorial Parkway" (spelled out), even if we decided that is how Wikipedia would treat a biography of the person. Same for iPod and iPhone or JPMorgan Chase, we use the official orthography. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose but not overly worried either way as both sides have valid points. I think our articles should reflect official naming and punctuation conventions for written entities. The National Park Service, right or wrong, uses a comma before Jr. in their written literature and they manage this parkway. If we write an article on Martin Luther King Jr. we leave out the comma, but if we write an article about a book titled Martin Luther King, Jr. as in this case, we leave in the comma.--MONGO 15:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per all the above reasons. A dumb rule is not a rule worth upholding. -- Calidum 21:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a "dumb rule"; it's correct punctuation in English. See below. —sroc 💬 13:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above opposition conveniently ignores that English language style guides consistently say that cases that employ a comma before "Jr." must also have one afterwards, so the current titles (whether they follow "official" titles or not) are contrary to English as well as contrary to our own Manual of Style.

Style guides
  • Chicago Manual of Style—Jr., Sr., III:

    Q. John Smith Jr. or John Smith, Jr.? John Smith III or John Smith, III?

    A. Traditionally, it would be John Smith, Jr., and John Smith III. But beginning with the fourteenth edition of The Chicago Manual of Style (1993), the recommendation is to use no commas in either case (see paragraph 6.47 of the sixteenth edition):

    John Smith Jr.

    But please note that within text, if you decide to use the more traditional comma before Jr. or Sr., the function of the comma is to set off these abbreviations, so an additional comma is needed after the abbreviation if the sentence continues (as in my first sentence above).

  • National Geographic Style Manual—Jr., Sr., III:

    Jr. and Sr. are preceded and followed by comma in full name:

    John M. Fahey, Jr. (left), went to...

    but John Jr. hurried...

  • Grammar Book—Commas:

    Rule 8. Traditionally, if a person's name is followed by Sr. or Jr., a comma follows the last name: Martin Luther King, Jr. This comma is no longer considered mandatory. However, if a comma does precede Sr. or Jr., another comma must follow the entire name when it appears midsentence.

    Correct: Al Mooney Sr. is here.

    Correct: Al Mooney, Sr., is here.

    Incorrect: Al Mooney, Sr. is here.

  • Daily Grammar—Lesson 341:

    Use a comma or commas to set off the abbreviations Jr., Sr., and Esq. Example: Carl Harris, Jr., is here now.

  • Answers—Is there a comma after Jr or Sr?:

    A comma would be used both before and after then designations of "Jr." or "Sr.," as long as the sentence continues. If the designation is at the end of the sentence, then a comma is used only before it.

    For example: John James, Sr., was well regarded in the community. However, the community had no use for John James, Jr.

  • Knox News—Grammar gremlins: Style for "Jr." and "Sr." varies:

    Sometimes the simplest point can cause us a problem when writing. For example, should "Jr." or "Sr." in a name be preceded by a comma?

    Some stylebooks say no, others say yes, but the "nos" outnumber the "yeses."

    However, those that specify no comma say you should follow the person's preference if you know it.

    A point to remember is, if you use a comma before either of these designations, you must use one after it.

—sroc 💬 13:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Those rules don't apply to real names. Say there is a library or department of history at University of Wales, Lampeter. "Lampeter" is a qualifying clause but when referring to the library or department, one would write "University of Wales, Lampeter Library" or "University of Wales, Lampeter Department of History". When naming an item after another item the name of the latter is placed in front of the former without any intervening punctuation. DrKiernan (talk) 13:52, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
According to which guides? —sroc 💬 15:22, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt that there are any, just as I assume there are none that say otherwise. (There aren't any in the collapsed section, for example.) I don't see why any style guide would trouble itself over such a trivial matter, and I hope ours never does too. I am content to rely on my own wits. I prefer:
Many medieval scholars study in the University of Wales, Lampeter Library, which houses a collection of historical manuscripts.
rather than:
Many medieval scholars study in the University of Wales, Lampeter, Library, which houses a collection of historical manuscripts.
Particularly when University of Wales, Lampeter Library is a proper noun used by the institution itself. DrKiernan (talk) 17:24, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is "Lampeter Library"? "University of Wales, Lampeter Library, ..." implies that the university is in Lampeter Library. "University of Wales, Lampeter, Library ..." implies that the university is in Lampeter and that the whole name refers to the library on that campus. That's not relying just on my wits but an understanding of appositives. —sroc 💬 05:46, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If it helps, I can illustrate this with syntax parse trees:
Noun Phrase
Adjective Phrase Noun
Noun Phrase Appositive
Noun Phrase
Noun Preposition Noun Noun
University of Wales, Lampeter, Library
Noun Phrase
Adjective Phrase Noun Phrase
Noun Phrase Appositive
Noun Phrase
Noun Preposition Noun Adjective Noun
University of Wales, Lampeter Library
—sroc 💬 06:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is just a case of the written format used by the National Park Service in their literature on the parkway. It is not correct according to the 1993 revised Chicago MoS and as I have researched, the original wording used two commas and spelled Junior in full....and their signage also has zero commas. But the current written wording in their webpage and brochure has one comma before Jr.--MONGO 21:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
nps.gov uses the same "incorrect name"; what's up with that? Dicklyon (talk) 03:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move—a single comma to set off the adjective is wrong in just about every English style guide I've seen, and dropping the commas completely is in keeping with the MOS guidance preferring we move away from the comma usage. Given the demonstrated inconsistency on the part of the NPS, there is no "official" name here beyond the order of the words/names, and the matter of the comma is one of stylization that should conform to our MOS. Imzadi 1979 → 00:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move – The present title is wrong, plain and simple. The following comma is required. However, the simplest thing to do is just to drop the commas altogether, as is recommended by many style guides. RGloucester — ☎ 01:20, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This is a memorial foundation, not a person or a biography. Adding a comma after surname and before abbreviation and additional words makes a title look funny or fuzzy or awkward. And, although distinct from John D. Rockefeller, Jr. himself, it mocks comma disambiguation. --George Ho (talk) 00:11, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Its a parkway (road and parkland) and the primary webpage maintained by the entity that manages it uses a comma after the surname. Its not our fault the park service uses the comma but they do in their primary page.--MONGO 02:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think anyone minds that the park service uses the odd mismatched comma in many of their pages, or that they use 2 commas or no commas on others. That's their prerogative. It has no particular bearing on our styling. We don't usually copy punctuation and style from sources, especially when they're so variable. Dicklyon (talk) 03:34, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What do you do when you write an article about this book?--MONGO 03:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Good question. My inclination would be to copy the book title pretty literally, and include the comma. But that's not quite the same thing as the name of a park feature that the NPS styles in three different ways in their own web pages, is it? Dicklyon (talk) 04:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Their primary webpage on the parkway uses the comma in each mention. Look...I'm opposing just for that reason alone...I'm not arguing that the park service is correct.--MONGO 05:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's poor form to copy someone else's mistake; it's worse to do so knowing that it's a mistake. —sroc 💬 17:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is your premise that using one comma is a "mistake" - it's a perfectly acceptable option, one which is used in multiple sources across multiple publishers. Dohn joe (talk) 18:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Widely used, yes. But not "perfectly acceptable" according to almost all style guides and normal rules of English grammar and punctuation. It's the kind of "error" that motivates so many style guides (including ours) to recommend sticking to the zero-comma style. So why not? Dicklyon (talk) 01:28, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but if we wanted to follow strict protocols in naming we would name the article as it was named in the legislation piece which is John D. Rockefeller, Junior, Memorial Parkway.--MONGO 05:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. But we don't usually go for official names, not strict protocols. At least that official name doesn't have the mismatched comma error. I'm a bit surprised to see that the spelled out "Junior" is actually pretty common in sources; but almost always with no commas. Dicklyon (talk) 05:49, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing sad about this is that the article had to wait ten years before any discussion related to the article happened and even so it's all about a punctuation mark in the title. What a petty ridiculous pedantic bunch of nitpicking drivel...and we're all guilty. The reader couldn't give a rat's arse about whether the article has a comma in the title or not.--MONGO 08:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So true. You'd have to ask Richard Arthur Norton he decided to interfere in a non-controversial routine move toward style compliance. Or, since you don't care, just ignore. Dicklyon (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it would also be unnecessary if we didn't spend time trying to eliminate a usage that is widespread and, yes, accepted, in professionally edited sources. Dohn joe (talk) 23:07, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No such rule exists? Did you not see all those style guides up there that all say that mismatched commas, as in the current titles, are wrong? —sroc 💬 17:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
English, for better or worse, has no Academy to decide "right" and "wrong" - and thus style guides are just that - guides. "Rightness" and "wrongness" is decided by usage in reliable, professionally edited sources. Many of which go the one-comma route. Dohn joe (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is an encyclopedia; we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than people who flout proper punctuation. That's what our style guide is for. —sroc 💬 04:25, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're missing the point - in English, "proper" is what is found in reliable, professionally edited sources. Dohn joe (talk) 14:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why would we have a Manual of Style then if we should ignore style guides? —sroc 💬 11:01, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose after all, the name of the road is clearly stated by the NPS. Does our style guide exist to change real names? The style change that created this and many other discussions really needs reviewing and maybe updating. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:48, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the fact, discussed above, that the NPS itself sometimes drops the comma, as here? Dicklyon (talk) 04:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the fact that sometimes they don't drop the comma. Their main page is the base for a valid name. Why change if it is not broken? Vegaswikian (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's see:
  • The founding legislation gives its official name as "John D. Rockefeller, Junior, Memorial Parkway" (two matched commas)
  • The NPS home page refers to it as "John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway" (one comma, contrary to English)
  • The NPS "Mountaineering" guide refers to it as "John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway" (no comma)
  • The entrance signs refer to it as "John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway" (no comma)
So why would we prefer the one version which is: (1) not overwhemingly the most common; (2) contrary to English, as supported by various style guides; and (3) contrary to Wikipedia's own MOS? —sroc 💬 04:03, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, as the name with the comma seems to be the common name, and after reading the discussion here. Randy Kryn 4:56 26 March, 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 15 May 2016

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: I'll quote the relevant guideline first: "Omission of the comma before Jr. / Jr / Jnr or Sr. / Sr / Snr is preferred. The comma can be used in cases where it is clearly and consistently preferred for a particular subject in current, reliable sources (most likely a living subject whose own preference is clear and consistent)." The preference of the NPS is not equivalent to that of a "living subject". The argument posed on that basis therefore lacks weight, and much of the rest of that argument is based on opposition to WP:JR as written, specifically whether we should look for usage in reliable sources. The other opposer stated last year that no comma would be OK, based on the arguments made at the time. The NPS, which is a good primary source, does mostly use the comma though not always and not on the parkway sign. As they are not a living subject and we don't give precedence to "official names", their usage is not decisive. This present debate did not include much analysis of other RSs, but the previous debates did and they are referred to as support. I also looked for use in recent RSs. There does not seem, outside the NPS, to be a preference for use of the comma. Based on that inconsistency and a preference here to apply WP:JR consistently, there is support for a move to remove the comma. Fences&Windows 08:40, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway → John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway – Now that WP:JR has been adjusted to express a clear preference for no comma before Jr., and all associated RM discussions have re-affirmed that guidance, it's time to fix this outlier with its ungrammatical unbalanced comma. Note that the National Park Service also drops this comma in many of its web pages and signs. Dicklyon (talk) 23:34, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Entrance sign; note lack of comma.
  • Support as nom. Besides the grammar problem and the modern preference for no comma in style and grammar guides, there's also the fact that the page previously cited as NPS support for the comma has disappeared, and several NPS pages drop the comma, indicating that they are flexible on styling if they care at all: [2], [3]. And as pointed out in prior discussions, most travel guides and other modern book sources also omit the comma. So there's no reason to not follow WP's preferred style here. Dicklyon (talk) 23:38, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per MOS:JR. This is a routine move now.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  23:54, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—sorry, stalking Dicklyon's contribs. Aside from the strong evidence, pictorial and non-pictorial, the comma is a most unfortunate parsing bump. That is surely a key reason for its demise in this context. Tony (talk) 02:19, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per MOS:JR. RGloucester — ☎ 02:28, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom, see WP:SNOW. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC) - Re-!voted below. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:35, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Support per MOS:JR. Cheers, CookieMonster755 📞 ✉ ✓ 22:44, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose MOS:JR states that no comma is preferred. It does not say there cannot be a comma, especially if some sources use one. The most reliable primary source is the official National Park Service webpage which clearly uses a comma [4]--MONGO 05:03, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I oppose any exemption clause in the guideline as not worth the time required to determine appropriate exemptions. Readers don't care about these commas, they do not constitute significant encyclopedic information. And, aside from bios, we can't even agree on the criteria for determining the appropriate exemptions.
    But I am not one to ignore part of a guideline because I disagree with it; community consensus is more important to me than my personal opinions. If we have an exemption clause, I agree with MONGO that this one warrants an exemption.
    Since web content is easy to change, NPS is like a living person as regards the name of this parkway, and their web site is a clear enough statement of their preference. To my mind, the only thing more authoritative than their web site would be the very few relatively-recent, most-official documents, to which we do not have access, short of submitting a written request to NPS and hoping to receive a useful response.
    NPS seem fairly consistent with this presentation, as seen here, here, here, here, and here, although they do omit the comma in a few minor places. Among the NPS web pages, the one given most weight should be their "main" page for the parkway, which appears to be the one MONGO linked.
    This is distinct from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Library, where the web preference is less clear.
    Consistency in presentation of JDR Jr.'s name across WP articles should not be a goal, as the considerations are different for our purposes; the parkway is not the person. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:35, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unclear on your reasoning. The "exception" in WP:JR says "The comma can be used in cases where it is clearly and consistently preferred for a particular subject in current, reliable sources." How does the fact that the nps often uses the non-grammatrical form overcome the many other reliable sources that don't? And what about the part that says "if a comma is used before the suffix, then a comma ... is also placed after it"? The legal name apparently has a ", Junior," but that's not what sources use. It looks like the NPS didn't know or care enough about grammar and style to make a conscious choice here. Dicklyon (talk) 15:34, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm extrapolating the passage, "(most likely a living subject whose own preference is clear and consistent)". In this case, the parkway is the "living subject", "living" through NPS, and I feel the NPS preference is clear and consistent enough to clear this bar, as I said. I also feel their preference should supersede our MOS as to grammar. To me, it makes no sense to look at whether that comma is present according to other reliable sources. To do so does not reflect the spirit and purpose of COMMONNAME (or, the "Recognizability" bullet at WP:CRITERIA, if you prefer), which is to decide between "Benjamin Bradlee" and "Ben Bradlee", not to poll other entities' manuals of style vis-à-vis punctuation in names. And again, my preference would be no exemptions at all, precisely because it puts us into one tangled, time-consuming situation like this after another, with completely inadequate guidance toward a meaningful resolution. Cost greatly exceeds benefit. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If we leave any room for discretion as to this comma, don't think for a second this pointless flogging-thrashing will end at article titles. Before long, the battleground will spread to whether the comma should be respected in a citation when it appears in the source's title. We will engage in years of pointless heated debate, one unclear and inconclusive RfC after another. If we reach a resolution, it will leave the question to local discretion at each article, which will ensure the continuation of distributed pointless heated debate forever.
Next, what about a quotation? Should that get an exemption? What about a quotation of written words versus a quotation of spoken words? Obviously, in the latter case, we can't know whether the person spoke that comma or not. Or can we? If we have access to the spoken words in a video, we can measure the length of the silent gap at that point in milliseconds. There is freeware that makes this relatively easy and quite accurate. How many milliseconds constitutes a comma? We'll have to research the scientific literature to find out. We'll have to resolve disagreement in the scientific literature. We'll have to factor in the speaker's speaking speed. And this will be very important, since we are an encyclopedia and our readers deserve it.
If I have learned anything in 3 years at Wikipedia, it's that no issue is too small to argue endlessly about. Quite literally. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:50, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So what's your recommendation? Pump this one up into an agrument, so that we delay getting into arguments about even less important stuff? Dicklyon (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously I'm covering two questions here, the local one and the larger, more important one. My recommendation on the larger one is to wait a little while for the latest controversy to cool, and then try to get the exemption clause removed. I am not going to take that on alone. As for the local question, I don't think I "pumped this up into an argument", rather, I followed a vague guideline that I disagree with, as I interpret it. I've made my case and I'll defer to the closer's decision as to whether it's more compelling than the others. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:08, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Arguing against the tide, in favor of an unusual interpretation of a guideline that you disagree with, strikes me as WP:POINTY, and strategically a step in the wrong direction if you want to get that guideline revised as you say. I'm with you on that, but I think your support here would contribute better to cooling things down and moving toward a next step, than your opposition does. Dicklyon (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't base my !votes on political considerations and strategies, or on escaping accusations of pointy behavior. I don't think conforming to the majority opinion is seen as something useful at Wikipedia. I gave a good-faith, considered argument. In any case, 4 out of 5 !votes doesn't seem like much of a tide to me. A ripple, perhaps. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:24, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to argue it to death. My oppose is simply based on the fact that our best primary source uses the comma repeatedly and this article has followed that penultimately reliable reference since the article was created a decade ago. If the majority opinion is that the comma be dropped then so be it.--MONGO 22:44, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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