Talk:Mozart family grand tour

Peer review: points outstanding 10 November

• Family image

Waiting for Solomon's book. Brianboulton (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Solomon's book does not have the image. I have exchanged it. Brianboulton (talk) 16:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• Investigate music clips

Nothing on WP:CMF#List of uploaded music. Have written for help to User:Shoemaker's Holiday for advice.

Brianboulton (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Shoemaker's Holiday is helping. Possibility of 2 clips from tour period - awaiting news 13 November

• Think about wunderkind para

Drafted a sentences, properly cited. In my sandbox at present, can't decide whether to use it or not. 13 November Brianboulton (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Children's practice arrangements

Left note for reviewer - I don't really want to add material, see what she says. Brianboulton (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

In absence of response added short sentence to prep. section 13 November. Brianboulton (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Leopold's teaching of Wolfgang

Text added 11 November Brianboulton (talk) 17:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• Check use of "Wolfgang" and "Mozart" through article

Checked 11 November Brianboulton (talk) 17:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• Check consistent use of [xxx] inserts in quotations

Checked 11 November Brianboulton (talk) 20:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• Check whether more terms need linking

Checked 11 November

• Find a copyeditor

JulianColton did a read through, some ce, OK

Brianboulton (talk) 00:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I read through it. Nice article, I made a few minor copyedits. Also:

• Early stages: Wasserburg needs disambiguation (your sources may give a clue, I haven't one)
• London: I redirected Cornhill (dab page) to Cornhill, London
• Holland: I redirected dauphine (dab page) to Dauphin of France

If these are incorrect, feel free to fix them. Magic♪piano 16:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the above. On this page I am basically just making notes to myself - the main discussion is on the review page. However, your points were most helpful. I have disambiguated to the correct Wasserburg, and have altered "dauphine" to princess (Madame Victoire was the king's daughter, not the Dauphin's wife - I was misled by a source. Brianboulton (talk) 00:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Odd capitalization of article title?

I am wondering what the rationale was behind this 'M small f G T' capitalization. Can anyone tell me? Otherwise I'm inclined to change it to 'Mfgt'. Thanks. --Kleinzach 13:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Nearly all the main sources used (Halliwell, Sadie, Gutman, Zaslaw) use GT, and this seems standard practice for this journey. I think it earns its capitals through custom and usage, in the same way as the Great Plague, the Grand Remonstrance and other historical events are capitalized. If you are concerned, perhaps you could raise the point at FAC, where this article will shortly be; I'd appreciate it if you didn't change it before then. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. You will have already noted my restraint. Maybe this begs the question whether they made 'a' big tour or 'the' Grand Tour (for which there is an article). The latter doesn't mention Mozart! --Kleinzach 06:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations on FAC. I've now made the change. Best. --Kleinzach 02:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Having looked at the new article name for a while, I'm unconvinced that this change is for the better. I believe titles should have some impact, and in my view this has been reduced. There wasn't a consensus for this change, just your view versus mine (which, see above, is backed by some quite impressive non-wikipedia support. I won't revert immediately, but I may invite the comments of others. Brianboulton (talk) 16:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the need to use capitals for "Grand Tour" in the title of this article because I understand it is exactly what the article Grand Tour describes. Whether the latter article deserves a link to this one, I leave to others. Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

As the Grand Tour article explains in the lead:

"The Grand Tour was the traditional travel of Europe undertaken by mainly upper-class European young men of means. . . . The New York Times described the Grand Tour in this way: Three hundred years ago, wealthy young Englishmen began taking a post-Oxbridge trek through France and Italy in search of art, culture and the roots of Western civilization. With nearly unlimited funds, aristocratic connections and months (or years) to roam, they commissioned paintings, perfected their language skills and mingled with the upper crust of the Continent."

Surely the Mozart tour was entirely different? --Kleinzach 07:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I lean ever so slightly toward caps. Even though what the Mozart family did was not really a Grand Tour in the standard sense, the title (at least as I read it) is invoking the traditional Grand Tour as a metaphor, and thus makes more sense with caps.

Another possibility to consider is to adopt a more literal (and less elegant) title, such as "Mozart's childhood travels". Regards to all, Opus33 (talk) 15:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

For me, the question is not whether the Mozarts' tour replicated the traditional cultural Grand Tour, which it obviously didn't, but whether the "Grand Tour" appendage (capitalised) must be reserved for that journey alone. The fact that nearly all the Mozart historians refer to the Mozart tour as a Grand Tour, not a grand tour, is a pretty good indicator that the capitalised term can be used in a broader sense. In the FAC, when Kleinzach raised the point, two reviewers and myself argued for the capitals and no others argued otherwise; in this current discussion, two more have done the same (counting Opus's "ever so slightly"). To me, there is an obvious consensus for reverting to the name as it was at the time of its promotion. Brianboulton (talk) 16:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

If I'm outvoted - which I may be - it won't be the end of capitalization as we know it. (A joke!) The Mozart travels were undoubtedly a grand tour. If we weren't on WP, I'm sure that any pragmatic editor would obviate problems by capitalizing all four words in the title, but that's not an option for us. However if we go back to the typographical odd MfGT the issue will only return. 'Mozart's childhood travels' sounds OK to me. I'd be happy with that as a long term compromise. --Kleinzach 00:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I support Kleinzach's change. The Mozart articles are not quite consistent on this but the uncapped grand tour predominates. I think it should be made uniform in them all, and also in the article Grand Tour (which is internally inconsistent). Evidence:

• Apart from occurrences in capped titles of books, OED has the phrase grand tour in seven entries. In the entry "tour" it is not capped. In "grand tour" it is capped in only two of the twelve occurrences, in citations from 1670 and 1748 (when capitalisation was generally managed differently). It is not capped in any of the remaining five articles (which use the phrase only incidentally).
• Turning to American sources, Websters Third International (W3) and the M-W Collegiate (both major dictionaries recommended by major style guides) have only the uncapped form.
• A survey of English literary texts from a corpus I have on CDROM finds three occurrences of grand tour uncapped (from Louisa May Alcott, Emmuska Orczy, and Henry James), but not one occurrence of the capped form.

These uses are typically as "metaphorical" as the use in this article, so there is no special case for capitalising here and not there.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Probably very subjective here, but I'd go with no caps. The Mozarts' "gt" is more like a rock tour, a career thing, the importance being on the Mozarts. It doesn't seem to quite describe the seasonal social migration GT of the GT article because it's performance (and income) driven rather than emphasising personal enjoyment ("broadening the mind", social networking or leisure-based), though a link to the GT article would add to awareness of its existence imho. Btw, off topic here so may need new section, is there any special reason why numbers in the article are not wikified? Examples, fifteen, eleven etc. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Re Kleinzach's suggested compromise, that won't do, since Mozart's childhood travels continued after the "grand tour". On the capitalization issue, I note the recent comments. There is evidence to support both contentions, and the consensus for my preference looks a little less secure. I'm not taking action for the moment. Brianboulton (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Nice article

Nice to see an interesting article on an unusual topic as a front page FA. Congratulations! Tempshill (talk) 21:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I like to see FAs on specifics. Good job! — neuro^(talk) 06:07, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I second these comments. I read over this article and it was very well-written and informative. A very encyclopedic article, but you wouldn't expect this kind of detail from a paper encyclopedia. This is Wikipedia in its best form! Excellent job to those who made it happen. Themfromspace (talk) 08:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

DYK

This article never seems to have been a "Did you know..." article, which is a pity, because I've got the perfect hook: "Did you know that Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart proposed marriage to Marie Antoinette when they were both seven years old?" —Angr 11:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

factual error

"The next stage of the journey took them to the Austrian Netherlands,[29] where they visited Liège" Liege isn't in Austria...not according to Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.69.8.165 (talk) 16:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

The Austrian Netherlands was the contemporary name for what is now Belgium, named after their rulers and not their location. There is a more specific quibble, though, that the Prince-Bishopric of Liège was never officially part of the Southern Netherlands. This is a minor point. Perhaps this could be easily resolved by inserting the word "nearby" right before Liege in the text. DavidRF (talk) 18:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Rule of thumb: Never assume European borders were identical or even similar to their current status. Brutannica (talk) 05:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

"Catholic"

The article says Leopold saw it as "his duty, as a Catholic and a German, to display the talents of his miraculous children."

I am wondering what being Catholic has to do with it. Had the elder Mozart been a Protestant, would he not have seen it as his duty? Would Bach or Handel not have been so motivated due to their Protestantism?

For that matter, I'm not sure being German is relevant to his motivation either, though given the preeminence of many German composers, I suppose it could be argued. Sca (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Under "Preparations" - there's a sentence, referenced from Sadie, that says "Leopold believed that it was his duty to his country, his prince and his God to proclaim this miracle to the world, by showing Nannerl and Wolfgang to the highest European society, otherwise he would be the most ungrateful creature." which I think covers it quite well. He felt he had a duty to show off how clever his kids were and it was a matter of faith and political loyalty to say thank-you to those who'd made it possible(!) Works for me. Best wishes, DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 10:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, regarding Catholicism, perhaps what's meant is something like: Leopold, as a person of faith and a pious Catholic, felt it was his duty to God ....

As far as his being "German," Leopold was born in Augsburg, Bavaria, but lived most of his life in Salzburg, Austria. Granted, Austria was then nominally part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, but the latter was by that time on its last legs after centuries of French interference and other factors that led to the rise of the princes. "Germany" was at that time more a cultural and ethnographic concept; no unified German nation-state existed.

Sca (talk) 15:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Very true. What this really requires is someone to look up Sadie and see what he said... Maybe the reference near the top, for the time being anyway, should be reworded so that it is closer to the text I quote from lower down, thus getting rid of some of the labelling? What do you think? Best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 20:43, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

As a recovering journalist and former editor, I think the best thing for the reader would be to simply delete the puzzling phrase, "as a Catholic and a German." I think his specific religious affiliation, and his ethnicity, are essentially irrelevant. And BTW, the Grand Tour wasn't limited to Catholic (or German-speaking) countries. Mit freundlichstem Grüβe.

Sca (talk) 18:10, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Bei mir goes this idea very well also. Already gedone. Tchuess! DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 01:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Believe it or not, before I wrote the article I looked up Sadie and saw what he said. This is what he said: "In fact, Leopold saw it as something of a duty—particularly, he would have undoubtedly have said, as a Catholic and a German—to show his children to the world". This is found on page 33 of Sadie's Mozart: The Early Years, a book evidently not consulted by the offended pair above. There is no justification for the removal of this insight into Leopold's motivations which come from a scholarly source. I have reinstated the excised phrase. Brianboulton (talk) 21:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear Brianboulton,

I am not offended (please view my user page regarding the German aspect.) But, out of context, this sentiment from Sadie raises for the general reader the questions explored above. The general reader of course has not read Sadie's biography, and the phrase, "as a Catholic and German," seems to come out of nowhere.

Rest assured, the article and its subject are interesting — a slice of Mozart's early life. Thank you for writing it. Sca (talk) 23:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

For that reason I have now put the words in quotes, and left a source. The quotes detach the article from the sentiment. Brianboulton (talk) 15:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks -- that's a nice way to handle it. Sca (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Grand Tour

I'm removing, pending discussion at least, the link in the lead paragraph from the displayed word journey to Grand Tour. If you read this article then Grand Tour, it is (I feel) obvious, from the first sentence of Grand Tour onwards, that the only thing in common between the two is that they involve travel round Europe. Put crudely, the "mainly upper-class European young men of means" of the Grand Tour were buying and the Mozart family, who were not upper-class or of means but pretty much servant-class musicians, were selling. Every line I read further into Grand Tour convinces me that the link doesn't make sense - you might as well link it to anything else listed at Grand_Tour_(disambiguation) and try to claim relevance. So I've zapped the link/but what d'you think? Thanks and best wishes, DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 10:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Someone had to send it to the knackers. Good for you,  :) Julia Rossi (talk) 11:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 01:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)