Talk:COVID-19 hospitals in the United Kingdom

Attribution notice

Note: parts of this article are taken from an earlier revision of NHS Nightingale Hospitals article, per Wikipedia's licensing policy. -- The Anome (talk) 09:39, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:NHS Nightingale Hospitals which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

National Health Service

Moved here from my talkpage. -- DeFacto (talk). -- DeFacto (talk). 21:18, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Please stop removing references to the National Health Service. Yes, I'm quite aware that it consists of four devolved entities, each with their own administrative structure, in the same way that the United Kingdom consists of four independent countries. But where it really counts, the NHS can, and does, act as a single entity, under direction of the central government of the United Kingdom. This is one of those times. -- The Anome (talk) 18:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: according to the National Health Service article: "Each of the UK's health service systems operates independently, and is politically accountable to the relevant government: the Scottish Government, Welsh Government, Northern Ireland Executive, and the UK Government, responsible for England's NHS." I'm not sure why you object to making that fact clear. Can you provide RSs to support your belief that there is currently a single "National Health Service" operating across the entire UK? Because currently, we see each of the separate health services issuing their own press releases releases concerning the hospitals in their countries. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:32, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

So... you're citing the National Health Service website to prove the non-existence of the National Health Service? So, what organization runs that website? On whose authority? Also: please tell me: who funds the NHS? -- The Anome (talk) 22:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: no, I'm quoting the Wikipedia article, as I said. What website? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:18, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

https://nhs.uk/ It certainly looks like there's some sort of central entity. Either this is all four devolved health services getting together to make it look like one thing, or there is some form of coordinating organization creating it on their behalf. (Clue: it's NHS Digital.) Why, do you think, would they do that? And tell me: who funds the NHS? (Clue: It's the central UK government.) -- The Anome (talk) 22:30, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@The Anome: that website only covers England - try finding services or mention of anything in any of the other home countries on it. Each of the other three have their own, separate, websites. As for funding, as far as I can tell, the NI government fund their health service, the Scottish government fund the Scottish service, the Welsh government fund their service and the UK government fund the English service. I imagine there is some coordination between the four in some respects, but each have their own agendas and priorities and report to their respective government. Did you find any RSs to support your belief that there is currently a single "National Health Service" operating across the entire UK? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:39, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

The NHS has is a tangible institution. The service is paid through a UK general taxation and anyone can go to medical school to work in any UK hospital for example. Also, every UK citizen is legally entitled to register and attend any hospital or GP. This is why the Olympics has the NHS logo and leaders from devolved governments and the UK government say a national health service, not services. Erzan (talk) 03:29, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@Erzan: it is four independent services, each under the political control of a different government (see National Health Service). Yes, they are all paid for by general taxation, but in Scotland the Scottish government have the power to levy that taxation in a different way to how it is levied in England. Yes, suitably qualified staff can apply for jobs at either, and yes, all UK citizens are entitled to use the services of any of the four services (with certain residential restrictions on some of the services), and yes, each of the governments may call their service their "national health service". However, they are still four different services, each with their own command structures and each with their own priorities and agendas. To assert that it is one homogeneous service is, at best, misleading. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

It's not misleading because the text links to a page explaining everything you listed. Erzan (talk) 12:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@Erzan: & @DeFacto: By my reading of it, the article IS misleading if we write 'the national health service' because that refers to a single service, whereas it is clear that the separate 4 services have made their own arrangements independently- from e.g. ref 4 ("NHS England is actively preparing for a number of scenarios... Scotland’s chief medical officer, Dr Catherine Calderwood, separately said numerous sites were being considered north of the border") and ref 29 ("Mr Richards [Cardiff and Vale University Health Board's chief executive] said the facility, which has £8m in starting capital from the Welsh Government... It's a fantastic collaboration between ourselves, the Welsh Rugby Union, Cardiff council and the Principality Stadium." -No mention there of any UK wide organisation /tho' one might hope that there is some co-ordination on a UK-wide basis/)- which is more clearly put if we write instead 'the four national health services' -Yadsalohcin (talk) 23:17, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree it is four, per my comment in above this thread. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Article factually inaccurate

Im concerned that the article is inaccurate, there are numerous sources making clear that the Nightingale Hospitals are UK wide, and not just in England. [1] [2] [3] and at the daily press Conferences the UK Government makes clear that Nightingale hospitals are being established all over the UK and include listing Glasgow in that. Whilst the hospital in Glasgow may have a different name, its clearly part of the wider uk wide approach taken for establishing Nightingale hospitals across the country during this crisis. The article should reflect that, rather than try to make out the Nightingale Hospitals are only by NHS England and the hospital in Scotland is entirely different. RWB2020 (talk) 11:37, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Although "Nightingale Hospitals" seem to be covered on NHS England's website, I don't see them mentioned on HSC Northern Ireland's, NHS Scotland's or NHS Wales's or in the Health and Social Care in Northern Ireland, NHS Scotland or NHS Wales Wikipedia articles. Perhaps it's just the UK government (which has operational responsibility for NHS England, but for none of the other national health services in the UK) trying to be over inclusionist? -- DeFacto (talk). 13:28, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Another new article today, highlighting that a second Nightingale Hospital is being established in Northern Ireland. [4], yet this article continues to make out as though The "Nightingale Hospitals" are only in England. Even if the individual hospitals are called something different, they are still clearly what the media and UK Government are referring to as Nightingale Hospitals and the article should reflect that. RWB2020 (talk) 11:20, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 vs coronavirus

Why does this article use "COVID-19" in the title rather than coronavirus? Coronavirus is the common name as used on other related articles such as 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United Kingdom. I am minded to start a move discussion. Admiral Rolland (talk) 09:10, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 17 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to COVID-19 hospitals in the United Kingdom; although the title I've gone with hasn't been explicitly proposed anywhere in this proposal, there is a decent consensus in this discussion that something akin to "coronavirus hospitals in the United Kingdom" is the best formulation of the name, and a global consensus that "COVID-19", and not "coronavirus", should be used in article titles. A synthesis of these two brings the name as proposed; however, I'm not making any judgement either way on consensus on this talk page between "COVID-19" and "coronavirus"; I'm just going for a standardised title. Sceptre (talk) 21:13, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

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NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals → UK coronavirus field hospitals – I feel the title is now outdated - although it was accurate when the first few hospitals were announced.

• Not all the hospitals listed are "NHS" hospitals (we have HSC and GHA hospitals listed as well);
• @Admiral Rolland: makes a good point of COVID-19 vs coronavirus in the title (though this may be the more controversial change);
• and not all the hospitals are critical care hospitals, some are palliative and others are recovery (e.g. Nightingale North West [5]).

All in all, UK coronavirus field hospitals is a more inclusive and more accurate title, although UK COVID-19 field hospitals could also work. ArcMachaon (talk) 11:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Comment. @ArcMachaon: just to point out that Gibraltar is not part of the UK either. It is one of the fourteen British Overseas Territories, so with "UK" in the article name it is still excluded. -- DeFacto (talk). 12:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto: Yes, I did consider it, but seeing as though the {{2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United Kingdom}} navbox is the UK one but has a section for British Overseas Territories (BOTs), I thought we could do the same (i.e. have a UK-titled article with a section for BOTs). I can't see a completely clean solution but it's the best I could do. Overall, I think the change is at least more inclusive (for the HSC side as well). The other alternative would be "British coronavirus field hospitals" but I personally prefer "UK" over "British" in encyclopaedia titles. ArcMachaon (talk) 12:25, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree with move but disagree with use of the word field. I'd just go with UK coronavirus hospitals. For example the Belfast City Nightingale hospital is not a field hospital, rather a re purposing of an existing wing of a general hospital. Llemiles (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree with move to different title UK coronavirus hospitals -- The Anome (talk) 18:12, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. I think "UK" is too informal for a title not based on a common name. I do agree that the current title is not good, but would prefer something like Coronavirus hospitals in the United Kingdom. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:52, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto and Llemiles: Works for me, although I did envision a title indicating the temporary nature of the hospitals. ArcMachaon (talk) 18:06, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• Agree proposed title is more accurate than current title. NHS outside of the UK can be ambiguous and it does not even correctly describe some listed hospitals. Coronavirus hospitals in the United Kingdom is also good. If UK is issue with BOTs, then British Coronavirus hospitals could fix it.--Bob not snob (talk) 05:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I'd amend my response above to say I'd opt for DeFacto's Coronavirus hospitals in the United Kingdom wording. Llemiles (talk) 13:28, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• Alternative Coronavirus pandemic treatment facilities in the United Kingdom. I'm thinking that this title would accomplish three things: a) it would tie the article to the event that it is related to; b) it would include BOTs; c) it would eliminate any future concerns about the type of facility that might emerge over time. A dedicated ward in a hospital is not a hospital - that was my primary driver for going to "facilities". Regards --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ceyockey: Only issue with this is that almost every major hospital in the UK has a coronavirus treatment facility. The term "coronavirus hospital" is a clearer indication that we are talking about specific organisations which have been set up solely for coronavirus patients. ArcMachaon (talk) 18:06, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@ArcMachaon: Hmm, what about Dedicated coronavirus pandemic treatment facilities in the United Kingdom? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:15, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ceyockey and DeFacto: yes, seems to be between that and Coronavirus hospitals in the United Kingdom. Either works for me, but I think we're agreed that it can't stay they way it is. May need to replace coronavirus with COVID-19 considering the changes over at COVID-19 pandemic also. ArcMachaon (talk) 16:14, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@ArcMachaon: I'd stick with "coronavirus" rather than "COVID-19" per WP:COMMONNAME, as the former is found six times more often in searches in *.uk websites using the phrases "coronavirus hospital" and "COVID-19 hospital". -- DeFacto (talk). 18:07, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current name is fine. They're operated by the NHS, they treat COVID-19, they provide critical care, and they are hospitals. Buttons0603 (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Hi, @Buttons0603: unfortunately that is not the case. They're operated by the NHS - not all the hospitals are operated by the NHS, we have hospitals run by HSC and GHA listed. they treat COVID-19 - true. they provide critical care - no, for example Nightingale NW, Nightingale NE and Dragon's Heart Hospital are not critical or intensive care providers. Please read the original RM comment. Thanks. ArcMachaon (talk) 16:14, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose change from "COVID-19" to "coronavirus" pursuant to an extensive RM which recently settled that question in favor of the former. No opinion on the remainder of the proposal. BD2412 T 03:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger discussion

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a Merge Proposal and / or Redirect.

Please do not modify it.

The result of the request for the Proposed Merger of NHS Nightingale Hospitals into this talk page's article was:
Consensus Reached–Awaiting Merge, per CONTENTFORK and CONSENSUS.
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I would like to suggest Wikipedia:Merging the article on the hospitals in England (NHS Nightingale Hospitals) into this article (NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals), which already covers all the hospitals across the UK. There is a huge overlap between the two, and seemingly no real benefit to having a separate article on the hospitals in England alone (see my analysis below). This was also a common opinion during the article's AfD nomination.

Discuss below. 2A02:C7D:118C:2600:24B3:BB87:32B5:DB0A (talk) 16:44, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. Looking through the NHS Nightingale Hospitals article, at the time of writing, I see basically nothing unique that isn't already in this article. A few sentences of introduction and background almost identical to those in this article, a few sentences on each of the hospitals that again are almost identical to those here, two sentences on staffing concerns that are literally identical to the second of three sentences in NHS COVID-19 critical care hospitals#Staffing, three sentences on Tesco possibly opening stores in some of the hospitals (I think this is the only unique information not duplicated in this article), and a table of hospitals that is a poor subsection of the one in this article (no references for example). From this I see no reason we need two separate articles, and 90% of the content in NHS Nightingale Hospitals is already duplicated here. 2A02:C7D:118C:2600:24B3:BB87:32B5:DB0A (talk) 16:44, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. As I recall, this article was originally created as an exact copy of that article whilst that article was locked in renaming disputes. Subsequently the non-England hospitals were added. I see no reason to cover all the UK hospitals in one article, when those in each of the four home nations are the responsibility of the four independent respective publicly-funded health services and their four different governments. A better way to proceed, I think, would be to just leave a short summary paragraph for the NHS England hospitals here, and leave the detail to the NHS Nightingale Hospitals article which was created for them. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:51, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Support. I came to the article on England when looking for a UK-wide overview of the NHS Nightingale Hospitals and found it irritating that I then had to go to a different article. The NHS covers all four nations in the UK and the virus doesn't respect geographic boundaries. Headhitter (talk) 17:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support either we have four articles on critical care hospitals in each NHS in Wales, Scotland, NI, and England, or we group them together. There is nothing in this article that Scotland/Wales/NI share that distinguish them from the English hospitals other than use of the name Nightingale. Llemiles (talk) 22:21, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support This is not a large enough topic to justify four separate articles. These hospitals are (thankfully) so far mostly unused, and let's hope they remain so. -- The Anome (talk) 09:10, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support (actually this is a case of the most import thing is I don't care (well not desperately unhappy about) what we do so long as we WP:BOLDly do something other than leaving things as they are). Within England the Nightingale Hospital branding is better than name COVID-19 hospitals in the United Kingdom and a redirect should remain; but a merged article is preferred to avoid a content fork. Unfortunately there may be a need to re-activate these soon so resolving this soon would be better. But if we aren't merging then DeFacto's suggestion to "leave a short summary paragraph for the NHS England hospitals here" is appropraite with a Template:Main to NHS Nightingale Hospitals.Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:07, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Given the recent edits [6] I am minded the scales tipped towards the merge by Yadsalohcin, and as soon as possible to avoid an increasing WP:CFORK. I have some sympathy for DeFacto's view; and was about to consider moving to that position until the latest content addition.s today. I have noted this at [7] about three days but have seen no response. Pragrammatically I now, given increased content forking, intent (subject to RL considerations) execute the merge at some point after 17 October 2020 UTC using WP:PROMERGE). Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Djm-leighpark, I do not understand your point. If anything, the fact that the temporary Covid hospitals of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are not part of a single UK-wide organisation and are jealously managed by the four different and functionally independent jurisdictions has become even more apparent. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

DeFacto: Probably I made that point badly however the table in "List of actual and planned hospitals" and "Statistics" in the "NHS Nightingale Hospitals" is a WP:CFORK. To be blunt the merge template has been up there too long on the articles; the consensus is to merge (and certainly not to remain apart); updates are potentially anticipated by myself shortly. I possibly have bandwidth to do the merge tomorrow morning but if you strongly wished to object to that I probably will not do it (but I will press for an uninvolved evaluation of consesnus) and someone else can do the work. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 21:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Djm-leighpark, I'm of the opinion that this should be closed as it is stale. There have been many developments since May, the date the last comment before yours was made, resulting in further and more fundamental changes and divergence of the Covid strategies between the 4 UK nations. It would, in my opinion, be better to remove specific hospital mentions from this article and to put the details in a separate article for each of the nations, with the Nightingale article being the place for everything related to just NHS England. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:16, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto: Okay: you've effectively blocked me from actioning this. I now leave this in the hands of Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers. Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a WP:PM.

Please do not modify it.
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 10:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

A copy of this template can be found here.

 Done: Merge implemented. I've tried to keep most relevant content, so may have kept more than I should, equally I apologise if I've inadvertently missed something. Resultant article can improve though normal editing. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 08:19, 22 October 2020 (UTC)