Talk:Hartford Line

Requested move 24 October 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:57, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

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New Haven–Hartford–Springfield commuter rail line → Hartford Line –The current name is a placeholder, which is no longer needed after today's announcement of the new name. (Press release) – Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• 2 railroads' names contain "Hartford": New Haven–Springfield Line (existing) and New Haven–Hartford–Springfield commuter rail line (planned). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support. The name of the article should be changed to the "Hartford Line" now that this is the official name for the planned new rail service.
  This name change would bring the name of this article in line with similar articles, such as New Haven Line, Shore Line East and the rail lines operated by MBTA Commuter Rail and New Jersey Transit Rail Operations. If you do an advanced Google search of Amtrak's web site for the term "Hartford Line" you do not find anything, which leads me to conclude that (a) Amtrak is not currently using this term and (b) the historic use of the term "Hartford Line" relates primarily to the days when the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad operated the line between New Haven and Springfield, a long time ago. FFM784 (talk) 13:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I was ready to oppose before tracking down the press release. Please can we link that directly in the move request next time :)? With this service opening it'll be the clear PRIMARYTOPIC and we can add a note to New Haven–Springfield Line. Mackensen (talk) 16:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• My apologies. The template text got messed up when I posted the move request on Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests, which carried over when the request was moved here. @Anthony Appleyard:, can you please explain why you contested this move request? The reason you've given doesn't seem to have any bearing on the title of this article. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• I found two railroads whose names included Hartford. I thought that a confusion may have arisen. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 17:50, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I see. That's pretty common with railroads; I don't think it should prevent the move. There are a couple others too - Hartford, Providence and Fishkill, New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad, Hartford and New Haven Railroad, Hartford and Springfield Railroad, Hartford and Slocomb Railroad... However, none of them is properly or even colloquially known as the "Hartford Line"; the New Haven - Hartford - Springfield corridor that Hartford Line currently redirects to is universally known as the Springfield Line (sometimes extended as New Haven - Springfield Line). Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:53, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Two questions

Question #1: Is the Hartford Line, the same "high-speed rail line" that has been referred to as the New Haven-Hartford-Springfield Rail (or NHHS Rail) in official communication during previous years?

Question #2: Assuming that the answer to question #1 is "yes," does anyone know why this line was named the Hartford Line? On first thought, it seems to me that riders who might otherwise patronize this line in traveling to Springfield and New Haven, (both of which appear to be rejuvenating, and thus increasingly popular as travel destinations,) might be confused by the name Hartford Line, and thus perhaps not take it. Does anyone out there have any further information about the decision to name it the Hartford Line? 50.176.56.183 (talk)

Yes it's the same project, as noted by the above move discussion. It is not high speed rail, but commuter rail. The new name is likely because it's shorter, and less awkward, even if it is less comprehensive. oknazevad (talk) 20:47, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

The new name was part of a planned rebranding of non-Metro-North commuter rail in Connecticut; Shore Line East is getting a new logo as well. The physical line itself is the Springfield Line (a name that wouldn't serve Connecticut's interests), "Main Line" (another historic designation, and a nice parallel to Shore Line East) doesn't have much meaning any more, and New Haven already appears in the New Haven Line. So I imagine "Hartford Line" was the least of the evils. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:44, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Mileposts

Where do the mileposts start for this line? Since Springfield starts at 94 miles, that would put mile 0 somewhere between Bellows Falls, VT and Claremont, NH, according to the Vermonter timetable. It's the same on the Connecticut River Line article. If someone could provide some insight that would be great, because I know this line is only 62 miles. Thanks! –Daybeers (talk) 08:01, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Rolling stock chart

@Henrylhunt: I appreciate you adding a chart to the rolling stock section, but you didn't cite any sources for your information. Though it may be helpful, if it can't be confirmed, I'd be inclined to remove it for now, at least until a source appears. Does anyone else have any opinions? Thanks! –Daybeers (talk) 20:45, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Daybeers: Hey! Sorry about that. I now have the proper sources if someone could add back the chart that would be great! Henrylhunt (talk) 22:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Henrylhunt: No worries! What are your sources? I'm not sure if the information should be put up yet, as there is already a little bit of text on the MBB coaches, and everything is kind of up in the air anyway at the moment: the plans may change before the start of service. –Daybeers (talk) 23:02, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Daybeers: Added sources. IT is certain that they will use the MBB coaches on the Hartford line check this out... https://twitter.com/NHHSRail/status/973595239096225792 Henrylhunt (talk) 23:06, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Henrylhunt: Thanks for your work! I cleaned up the sources a little bit and removed the part about the Mafersa coaches. The thing is, the sources you provided say nothing about the use of them. The Tweet from the NHHSRail Program's account specifically says the SLE train was just used for "...testing and training purposes only." I'm also confused because the Courant article you cited states:

Connecticut officials said they originally expected to shift M-8 rail cars currently used on the New Haven Line to the Shore Line East commuter line, and use non-electric Shore Line East cars for the new Hartford Line. But they said increases in peak ridership on the New Haven Line have required DOT to use all available M-8 cars on that commuter service...Another reason, DOT officials said, is that Amtrak hasn’t completed electrification of rail sidings along the Shore Line East route, which means the nonelectric cars intended for the Hartford Line are still being used for the shoreline rail service.

The other source backing up the use of Mafersa coaches is from 12 years ago. So, I'm not sure the information about the Mafersa coaches should be on there. I know I'm being strict about this, but I feel this article is well-written and well-cited as it is, so I'd like to avoid adding information that fails verification. I can't speak about the Trains Magazine source, as I no longer have a subscription to it. I'm also even hesitant to have the table there in the first place, since there aren't any sources for the other information in it, such as the quantity and year aquired, except for the P40DCs. Maybe Kew Gardens 613, Pi.1415926535, or Oknazevad could chime in on this? Thanks! –Daybeers (talk) 02:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Haven't really been keeping up with the news on this line, but that tweet is pretty definitive that the MBB coaches will be used, at least at first. And Hartford Courant article is a very good general reader source, so I have no objection to including them in a chart (should probably include the quantity of 16 mentioned in the Courant article, as that's reliably sourced). The locomotives I'm less convinced about. Essentially we're saying that they're planning on using the SLE locomotive fleet as a pool, but we don't really have a source stating that's the current plan, as opposed to the previous plan to move equipment over permanantly that fell through leading to the MBB car lease in the first place. That needs a definitive, more recent source. oknazevad (talk) 03:57, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't seen any evidence of the Mafersa coaches being used on the Hartford Line. I also think we should not be using photos of locomotives still in their NJ livery - better to have no picture than a misleading one. Also, @Henrylhunt: how did you manage to get a picture of equipment inside the yard? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 16:20, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

@Daybeers: @Pi.1415926535:Completely agree with everything said above. As i see it, the new GP40-2Hs will be mainly used on the line and the P40s will mainly operate on SLE but we will probably see some P40s on the Hartford Line. I have a couple friends that work for Amtrak and one of them took me inside the yard once, also its pretty easy to take photos as i have a drone with a 4K camera. Next time I'm at NHV, Ill try and get a better photo of the GP40-2Hs in their new livery, but the NJT P40s haven't been repainted yet so i could get a photo of the P40s in the CTDOT yard with NJT paint yet try to angle the photo as to emphasize the CNDX painted on the side under the cab window of them, we could leave it blank as said above, or we could use a photo of one of the CTDOT owned P32ACDMs in the NH paint to represent what they would look like if CTDOT had the cash to reapaint them. Up to you. Henrylhunt (talk) 22:43, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

@Henrylhunt: Yeah maybe if we had a picture of them where you could tell they were in the CDOT yard, that would be good. –Daybeers (talk) 03:53, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

What? No. That is literally the definition of original research and not at all a good road to go down. In any case, the table as it stands is not remotely well sourced vis-à-vis the Hartford Line. None of the equipment numbers are cited, the only reference that actually supports the use in Hartford Line service is for the coaches, which was already explained in prose, and most of the references predate the Hartford Line, some by several years. As far as I can tell, the entire use of the locomotive fleet in Hartford Line service hinges on one mention from two years ago that Shore Line East equipment was planned to move to the Hartford Line, a plan that has obviously been superseded by the fact that they are leasing the MBTA equipment. The Wicked Twisted Road (talk) 17:15, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

@Daybeers: Ok, will do next time I'm in NHV Henrylhunt (talk) 05:11, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Confusing wording

"Connecticut DOT provides eight round trip commuter trains on weekdays under its new CTrail branding that are operated by its new contractor. Five of these terminate at Hartford, with the remaining three continuing north to terminate in Springfield. Additionally, Amtrak has added three New Haven–Springfield round trip Shuttles in addition to its previous six round trip runs. Altogether there are sixteen round trips between New Haven and Hartford, with eleven of them operating the full line to Springfield."

This doesn't make sense. Six plus three equals nine Amtrak round-trips. That plus eight CTrail is 17. I know the schedule shows eight Amtrak runs, presumably because the ninth is the Vermonter. I'm trying to confirm what was meant by "previous six round trips". Just the Shuttles, or the Shuttles plus the DC to Springfield NE Regional, or all those plus the Vermonter? Needs a rewrite for clarity. Mirza Ahmed (talk) 03:52, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@Avman89: Thanks for pointing this out! I reworded that section a bit. The original plan was to have 17 round trips between New Haven and Hartford with 12 of them operating to Springfield, but a while back CT DOT quietly reduced this to 16 and 11, respectively, and I guess the article was never updated to reflect that. –Daybeers (talk) 22:33, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Are Amtrak Shuttle and Regional trains included in the Hartford Line service?

@Oknazevad: I decided to take this disagreement to the talk page instead of continuing to engage in edit warring. In regards to the explanation for your last revert, comparing the inclusion of some Amtrak trains on VRE and MARC schedules is not helpful, as the situation is different here. The point of the Hartford Line is you can pay a walk-up flat fee and use any Amtrak Shuttle, Northeast Regional, or CTrail train for the same amount of money (this is excluding the Vermonter). The Amtrak trains and CTrail trains work together to make the Hartford Line service. It is much like a commuter rail service, the only difference being there are two service providers: Amtrak, who run their Shuttle and Northeast Regional trains, and a joint partnership between TransitAmerica Services and Alternate Concepts Inc, who run the CTrail trains. All of these services are subsidized by the state of Connecticut. –Daybeers (talk) 22:26, September 9, 2018 (UTC)

And Shuttle trains appear on the Amtrak national timetable while Hartford Line service trains do not. Amtrak may honor CTrail tickets on Shuttle trains as part of the states' subsidies, but they're still Amtrak Shuttle trains. Just as Shore Line East trains are not the same as Northeast Reguonals. Cross-honoring is it uncommon; even Shore Line East has it. The Hartford Line across-honoring is certainly more generous than other examples, it doesnt change the fact that Amtrak service predates and is distinctly named from the CTDOT-overseen Hartford Line service. PS, the italics in CTrail is in conflict with the WP:MOSTM guideline. We don't mimic stylings nuts because the owner uses them. oknazevad (talk) 01:35, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Even if I agreed with you, it still doesn't make sense to me to not include the speed limit of the Shuttles on this article. They're still part of the Hartford Line service, they just have their own official name as well. The Hartford Line is a service, not the actual line, which is the New Haven–Springfield Line. Maybe some other Wikipedians could weigh in on this: Pi.1415926535, Kew Gardens 613, or Mackensen? –Daybeers (talk) 01:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

That's exactly it. The Hartford Line is a service, and the Shuttle is a second, separate service on the same tracks. That's why I object to including Shuttle stats here. oknazevad (talk) 12:30, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm unsure. Oknazevad is right that the Shuttles are their own service, with their own history. That said, the materials on the Hartford Line service make a strong case for the Hartford Line encompassing both the CTrail trains and the existing Shuttle trains, which have a higher speed. Mackensen (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

This is an interestingly complex question. While it's true that the Shuttle is a separate entity, it's also true that official Hartford Line site simply lumps Amtrak and CTrail trains together as the Hartford Line. Combine this with the fact that there's fare parity between Amtrak- and CTrail-operated trains, and it's hard to say that the Shuttle is simply another train service that happens to follow the same route as the Hartford Line. I think it might be worthwhile to rearrange the article a bit to make this all clearer (or as clear as possible) in the lede, and then have the first post-TOC paragraph outline how operations on the line work, with info on ticketing, operators of different trains, etc., and then only after that getting into the history. Right now this is spread over different sections and not really treated in a coherent way. I might take some time to do this this afternoon. --Jfruh (talk) 19:26, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

OK, I was bold and made the tweaks. Let me know what you think. --Jfruh (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I think that's a finely written explanation. It's pretty apparent that Amtrak and the state have a deal that alllws passengers to use Amtrak trains (except the Vermonter) as substitutes for Hartford Line trains, but operationally they're still Amtrak trains. Since the dispute that brought this up was what operating speeds to list in the infobox, I'm still disinclined to list Amtrak speeds, but what about placing that info in a footnote? oknazevad (talk) 22:57, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

If a passenger uses the Hartford Line service, they could take one of the CTrail trains or one of the Shuttles — they're the same price — so if the top operating speed of the CTrail trains is included in the Hartford Line article, why shouldn't the speed of the Shuttle trains be included also? –Daybeers (talk) 03:59, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Because they're operated by a different company using different equipment under a different branding. Passengers holding Hartford Line tickets can use them, but that doesn't mean they suddenly become Hartford Line trains. They're still Amtrak Shuttle trains, which have been around since long before Hartford Line service. Heck, they've been around as long as Amtrak has. The Shuttle didn't cease when the Hartford Line started, nor was it absorbed completely. oknazevad (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

The Shuttle trains are still part of the CTrail Hartford Line service. If you take an Amtrak train, you'll hit 110 mph. If you take one of the CTrail trains, you'll only hit 79. I highly doubt the average reader is going to know to look at both the Hartford Line and the New Haven–Springfield Shuttle articles to know how fast the Shuttle train they were on was going. The average passenger most likely doesn't understand the nuances of how the service works unless they do some research into it. They just paid the flat fee and got on the next train. –Daybeers (talk) 04:56, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

So we educate the average reader by not repeating misconceptions. If we need to mention the Shuttle speeds at all (and I'm still doubtful we need to at all, as it is a separate service), we can explain that in a footnote. oknazevad (talk) 11:34, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I believe it should be included in the infobox as it was before, as the Shuttles are still part of the Hartford Line program. –Daybeers (talk) 00:39, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Any other thoughts on this? –Daybeers (talk) 01:50, 28 September 2018 (UTC)