Talk:Willem II Tilburg

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On 14 September 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Willem II (football club) to Willem II Tilburg. The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

moved DMacks (talk) 16:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC) Willem II Tilburg → Willem II (football club) — The name of the town, Tilburg, is only in the name of the company behind the club. The club itself is called Willem II, it is registered with the relevant associations as Willem II and it is known by the public as Willem II. See for instance the club website Willem-II.nl, the club information on the official Eredivisie website, the club information on the UEFA website and the club information on the Voetbal International website. — Aecis·(away) ^talk 12:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Support per the naming conventions for sports teams. The team refers to itself as Willem II on its own website, but since Willem II could refer to a couple of other subjects, the disambiguator "football club" should be used. – Pee Jay 12:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the naming conventions for sports teams. Giant Snowman 13:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Usage is what matters, not officialness - see WP:NAME. Even if Willem II is slightly more common, the full form with Tilburg is the most common unambiguous name, much more common than "Willem II football club". Oppose Knepflerle (talk) 19:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, Willem II is much, much more common than Willem II Tilburg. Which is why I proposed Willem II (football club). Note that football club is between parentheses, to disambiguate it from a former Dutch king and a former Dutch stadtholder. I never proposed Willem II football club. Aecis·(away) ^talk 21:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - There is no need to use an artificial Wikipedia-only disambiguation when there is a common unambiguous term in general use. If Willem II were unambiguous then the move would be fair, but moving from a well-use unambiguous term to a term needing extra disambiguation is change for change's sake. Still oppose. Knepflerle (talk) 21:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NC#Sports teams. Latics (talk) 08:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I would support it if there was Willem II, but this is not the case. The spirit of WP:NC#Sports teams is to give the article the best fitting non-ambiguous English name. A ("Willem II" football) query returns just 22 Google News hits[1]; if we make a ("Willem II Tilburg" football) query, the results are just four.[2] But the fact is, we have no place for an article to be called just "Willem II", but "Willem II (football)" instead, which is a pretty troubling name for this article. So, as it is clear a significant part of the media (not a majority part, sure, but anyway significant and measurable) uses "Willem II Tilburg" to refer the club, and the club is officially called "Willem II Tilburg" (have a look at the footer in the official club website), I think we should leave the current name instead of embarking into a name which is way more difficult to be actually typed in by the average final user. --Angelo (talk) 08:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The name on the footer is Willem II Tilburg BV, the acronym meaning Besloten Vennootschap (plc). That is not the name of the club, but the name of the company running the club. Aecis·(away) ^talk 10:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Not so differently than in Italy, where, for instance, Juventus' full name is "Juventus Football Club SpA". However, it's afact the company is called "Willem II Tilburg BV", and not just "Willem II BV", I think this gives some sort of authority to the "Willem II Tilburg" choice against an artificial title such as "Willem II (football club)". By the way, I think we should follow the exact same modus operandi for all other Dutch teams around, starting from AZ (football club) (that, in Italy, is usually called "AZ Alkmaar", the club having some minor coverage due to Italian Graziano Pellé playing into it). --Angelo (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - The name of the company that runs the football club should not be the be-all-and-end-all of the discussion. WP:NC for sports teams should be respected here, especially after we spent so long trying to establish those naming conventions. Assuming that the club's name is ambiguous as their website does not have an English language section, we should use Google News searches to establish the most common name. A search for "willem ii" (with quotes) returns 1,086 hits, while "willem ii tilburg" (with quotes) returns just 55 hits. Further assuming that the hits for "willem ii tilburg" are included in the hits for "willem ii", deducting the 55 hits from 1,086 still leaves 1,031 hits just for "willem ii", making "willem ii" by far the most common name for the club. However, as Willem II can refer to the Dutch monarch as well as the club, Willem II (football club) seems the most appropriate name for the article. As for the argument regarding AZ, that's probably best saved for that club's own article talk page. – PeeJay 21:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - "Willem II" can refer to several other things, not just the football club, that's why I've used different Google News queries (namely, "Willem II football" and "Willem II Tilburg football"). Unfortunately, as I stated above, the choice is not between "Willem II" and "Willem II Tilburg", but "Willem II (football club)" and "Willem II Tilburg"; in this case, I just prefer the latter. --Angelo (talk) 07:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - In addition to my comment above, I direct you all to the "Contact" page on Willem II's official website (here), which lists "Willem II" as the top line of the contact address. – Pee Jay 21:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per naming convention for football clubs. Jogurney (talk) 03:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Second move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved - If anyone wants to start a discussion to get this article moved back to Willem II Tilburg, they are welcome to do so, but this article shouldn't be moved again without discussion. – Pee Jay 08:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Willem II Tilburg → Willem II (football club) — This article was moved from Willem II Tilburg to Willem II (football club) a year ago, following the above move request. Last June, Vlad9 (talk · contribs) moved it back to Willem II Tilburg, without any discussion. I have asked for an explanation on his talk page, but he hasn't responded. I request that this page be moved back to Willem II (football club), corresponding to the consensus that was established above. 94.212.31.237 (talk) 12:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related page moves. 94.212.31.237 (talk) 13:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - this shouldn't be a problem really, Vlad9 should never have moved it back in the first place. Giant Snowman 13:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It shouldn't have been moved back without discussion - but I still maintain Willem II Tilburg is the most common unambiguous name for the club. The bracketed disambiguation ain't much worse though. Knepflerle (talk) 00:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Logo

This page, as opposed to many other Dutch teams, does not have a vectorial logo for the team.

Here is one that could be used: https://worldvectorlogo.com/nl/download/willem-ii.svg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Friggigatto (talk • contribs) 15:16, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 07:18, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Willem II (football club) → Willem II Tilburg – Per WP:NATURAL: Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title, is sometimes preferred. As the football cannot be located at the title Willem II, it would be better to use natural disambiguation over parenthetical. The official name of the club is "Willem II Tilburg BV" (source), and English-language media and sport websites often use this as an alternative name for the club (examples: Telegraph, Sky Sports, The Guardian, BBC, Eurosport, FourFourTwo, TNT Sports, UEFA). The club uses it on their social media as well (Instagram, Facebook). I'm not saying "Willem II Tilburg" is the common name (links can still be piped to display "Willem II" on other articles), but the name is preferable to a parenthetical disambiguation. S.A. Julio (talk) 06:49, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. S.A. Julio (talk) 06:49, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~ - this is back to Sporting Lisbon/Inter Milan etc. colloquialism. Giant Snowman 06:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman: How is that the same when the club is registered as "Willem II Tilburg BV"? Per their website: Het betaald voetbal van Willem II is ondergebracht in Willem II Tilburg BV, or Willem II's professional football is housed in Willem II Tilburg BV. S.A. Julio (talk) 07:00, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is the company entity which owns the club, so totally irrelevant - akin to trying to rename a club to Chelsea Clearlake F.C. or similar. Giant Snowman 07:03, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman: Okay, but it clearly shows there is an official usage of "Willem II Tilburg", including the club's social media accounts (1 2). Also on their website: This website, www.willem-ii.nl, is maintained by Willem II Tilburg. This is also consistent with the move at Talk:NEC Nijmegen, which uses the same logic and you supported. The point is that, should there exist a name that is commonly used in English sources, it would be a superior option to a parenthetical disambiguation. S.A. Julio (talk) 07:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The URL for Instagram is 'willemii' - there is no evidence that inclusion of 'Tilburg' is anything more than local pride and/or disambiguation in the media. I suppose we also have issues with PSV Eindhoven and AZ Alkmaar as well. Giant Snowman 07:19, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - on reflection, it is arguable that there is a Dutch (only) convention to include the town/city in the name - in addition to the examples above, see also Sparta Rotterdam (which probably technically should be Sparta (football club), Excelsior Rotterdam (although I think the town is part of the name here), NAC Breda (again, I think the town is part of the name here) etc., so this move is in-line with that. Giant Snowman 07:25, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per nom. Chris1834 Talk 21:08, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support As natural disambiguation. Widely used alternative name. AusLondonder (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.