Template talk:Dead end

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dead end template.

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This template was considered for merging with Template:Wikify on 2010 December 31. The result of the discussion was "keep".

This template was considered for deletion on 2013 June 25. The result of the discussion was "speedy keep".

This template is used on 0 pages on the dead-end pages list. Please be careful when making major edits, as it will go into affect on a large number of pages.

General Discussion

Please discuss this template here. If you are suggesting something, BE BOLD and change it yourself! But also mention it here so others know what happens. You do NOT need permission to change this, even though it is in my userspace. I do not own this page. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 23:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did some changes - in particular removed the "you can edit without knowing the subject" tag. We don't want completely indiscriminate links - even though I edit a lot of articles I don't know much about, I know *something* that lets me evaluate the articles. Do you think that the bot should place this on all deadend pages? --Alvestrand 00:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At least for now, no. Once this template gets to a reasonable quality, I may consider asking for opinions on the DEP talk page, and if its liked I will move into the template namespace and put forward a BRFA to get approval. For now, i'm just trying to build a good template. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 00:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also added another line regarding wikify, i'm almost completely certain my wording is horrible, so could someone else better at wording tidy it up? Thanks! Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 00:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. There was a discussion a while back about adding a tag / category to the DEPages, and not much consensus was reached. I've come to think lately that adding a template / category to the pages with a bot would be a good idea -- we've lost some active editors lately, and if tagging the pages can help draw others in to get them done, so much the better.--Kathy A. 12:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Should this be used

Can I please get a vote on whether or not this should be added to DEP pages? It would help attract more editors, and provide a better method of keeping track. (using a category, which I am going to be adding soon).

clarification: do you mean "should this be added automatically using a bot to the DEP pages?" --Alvestrand 05:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is for the template itself. Whether a bot should do it is something I will discuss later. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 03:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please add your name using four tildes, using an unordered list (place your sig on a new line, starting with an asterisk (*)).

Support

Oppose

Comments

We must certainly have something like this. I can't believe it didn't exist before. I find the proposed text satisfactory. Magioladitis 09:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm indifferent. I think the DEP pages are a better way of keeping track than a category, because they allow us to keep notes in the list, and you can tell that you're progressing (between uploads). But I don't mind. --Alvestrand 02:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a reply to this, its ideally for attracting people to it and letting people know they can fix it. At the moment there are not many people doing this, and it isn't that difficult (yes you can argue with that, but normally no) to fix a dead end page. Plus it also means we have a large category with it all in it, so we can better keep track of the total count. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 03:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bot

I'm putting forward a BRFA to get my bot to add this template to dead end pages. If anyone has any objections, please say so on that page. (Transcluded onto WP:BRFA) Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 00:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Approved, and now live. This template is on approx 2000 pages. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 07:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question

I do most of my DEP work with AWB, and then once or twice a week use my regular browser to see what items on the list can be removed. When I fix a DEP that has this template in it, it seems like I should remove the tag. Do I also need to immediately jump into a browser to remove it from the DEP list (to avoid having the bot place a new tag on it), or is the bot smart enough to see that links have been added? Thanks! --Kathy A. 17:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed a line

I removed the line saying to add other tags such as "wikify" to deadend articles. Experienced DEP workers know that almost all DEPs need cleanup/wikify, so I'd prefer to avoid template creep. Shalom ^Hello 15:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What's the difference?

What's the difference beetween {{wikify}} and {{deadend}}? Kubek15^{(Sign!) (Contribs) (UBX)} 10:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deadend refers only to the lack of links, while wikifying also includes making the title bold, adding sections, formatting lists, etc. If an article is fully wikified, it wouldn't be a deadend. So why have both templates? Two reasons. If the article is otherwise wikified and only lacks links, deadend is more specific. Also, the deadend template includes a link to Nickj's tool for adding links, so having both the wikify and deadend templates on an article can be helpful.--Fabrictramp (talk) 15:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed unification of {{deadend}} and {{internal links}}

There is a discussion here on the subject of merging two templates that have nearly identical goals but wildly varying levels of quality in their doc pages, their category assignments, etc. I believe the change to be a non-controversial one, but I'm not bringing in a {{changerequest}} just yet/might as well give it a day and see if anyone sees a reason I haven't predicted to block a merge. Thanks! MrZaius^talk 02:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing no objections

{{editsemiprotected}} Please replace the code in this template with the new code found in Template:Nuevointernallinks, replacing any mention of "nuevointernallinks" with "Deadend" - This should be shortly followed by completion of the editprotected request at Template talk:Internal links. I will then finalize this project by replacing the /doc text at this template with updated text based loosely upon the much more detailed text at Internal links but incorporating a number of minor fixes and an acknowledgement of the udpate to allow for date based tags inherited from Deadend. MrZaius^talk 13:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the {{editprotected}} to {{editsemiprotected}} as Template:Deadend is not fully protected. --Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 23:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weird - I'm so used to every template worth bothering with having full protection enabled by paranoid Twinkle-using admins. Thanks, MrZaius^talk 02:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Anyone see any new problems post-merge? MrZaius^talk 02:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did spot one - The former {{internal links}} didn't allow for article/section flagging, but it did allow for a random topic to be specified. I'll try and add that back in tomorrow, but if someone can beat me to it, it'd be much appreciated. Just need to take any argument other than "article" "section" or "date*" and print it in text like "links concerning X." MrZaius^talk 05:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind - Flipped through the first hundred or so and didn't see any evidence at all of that argument's use. MrZaius^talk 17:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why the rename

Why the sudden template rename? (Deadend -> dead end) [1] Don't most uses use the former name, and a lot of documentation to change. Seems like would be worth a little explanation/discussion. Thanks. Zodon (talk) 07:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say revert but keep "Dead end" as an template redirect. There are at least three already pointing here - One more won't hurt, if the initiator of the move wants to use it with a space. That would have seemed far more appropriate than the move. MrZaius^talk 07:32, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How many links are needed to remove this template?

Should the article have 3 or more links to mainspace or it should it depend on its size? -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't personally remove this tag unless there are at least three blue links, but I can see the argument that a deadend by definition is an article with no blue links, and we should be wary of instruction creep and unnecessary/illogical rules. If we define any minimum greater than one blue link we risk telling people they shouldn't remove this tag from an article that isn't a deadend because it is almost a deadend. Also there are some stubs where it is hard to add more than one or two worthwhile links, so a set minimum risks encouraging overlinking. Ϣere SpielChequers 13:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

deadend/wikify

Prior to the merger with another template, the description on this page didn't exclude {{wikify}} to be applied concurrently with this template. As it could make it more likely that the article gets wikified, I'd like to restore to the initial version. -- User:Docu (April 18, 2009)

After the most recent update, I think it's even more confusing. It seems hard to imagine that an article is wikified, but still needs internal links, no? -- User:Docu (April 24, 2009)

I'm not understanding what the issue here is. The documentation correctly says this clarifies the issues brought up in a wikify tag. What is confusing?--Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to the merger, it didn't say much at all on the topic. The most recent edit by Docu seems perfectly adequate, though. Not sure I understand how my edits made it "more" confusing, but the simplified version is definitely nicer. MrZaius^talk 05:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I edited after my second note above. I'm glad everyone is happy with the April 24 version. The change of wording in January lead to problems with AWB as it is (and always was) programmed to apply both. -- User:Docu

Discussion about new tagging bot

This message is being sent to inform you of a community discussion regarding a bot proposal. The bot would automatically tag new articles with matinence tags, such as this template. More details can be found at the proposal. Thank you, Ⓢock 16:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question about template wording

I have a question based on conversations I've had today here and here about this template. According to Wikipedia:Dead-end pages, dead-end pages are defined as those that have "no internal links to other Wikipedia articles." However, since this template states "This article needs more links to other articles" and the template documentation states "This tag can be used to clarify a {{wikify}} request that was placed primarily to generate additional internal links, especially where there are few or no internal links." it seems the instructions state it is appropriate to use this template on articles that have one or more wikilinks. What is the consensus for using this template? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 03:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to mention that Twinkle defines a dead end as "article has few or no links to other articles". GoingBatty (talk) 03:19, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To me the documentation in the template is perfectly clear i.e. "This tag can be used to clarify a {{wikify}} request that was placed primarily to generate additional internal links, especially where there are few or no internal links." that is the wording that I have followed when using the template, and is the one that makes the most sense to me. --Bob Re-born (talk) 08:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bob - The template also contains an image of a DEAD END sign, which I'm used to seeing on a dead end street where there are no ways to exit except going back the way you came. Are you suggesting that the definition of a dead-end page be changed in Wikipedia:Dead-end pages? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The page WP:Dead-end pages does not intend to define the meaning of a "dead-end page" on Wikipedia; it merely provides a list of pages with no wikilinks, and calls those pages "dead-end pages". It does not have much to do with this template besides sharing a catchy name
This template has always said that pages tagged with it have few or no links to other articles. If AWB removes the tag once one wikilink is found in the page then that's wrong, or at least not in keeping with the wording of the page. Amalthea 15:39, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reported at WT:AutoWikiBrowser/Bugs#Genfix: Removing Dead End and Wikify templates is incorrect.
I may unwatch this page soon, if you still find that the wording in Twinkle should be changed please let us know the new wording there. Amalthea 15:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Amalthea - thanks for joining the conversation!

{{dead end}} adds the hidden Category:Dead-end pages on the page, which states "This is a category for the dead-end pages cleanup project.", which links to Wikipedia:Dead-end pages. So there appears to be more of a relationship between the template and the page than just the name.

The "few or no internal links" text looks like it was added to the documentation in 2009 based on the #deadend/wikify conversation above. (I wasn't an editor in 2009, so others probably know the history better than I.) Since {{wikify}} has been expanded to mean more than just "needs more wikilinks", if {{dead end}} should mean "needs more wikilinks" instead of "has no wikilinks", I'm OK with this evolution as long as there's consensus and all the documentation and tools are updated.

Thanks for bringing this up on the AWB page. I should have brought them in to the conversation earlier. GoingBatty (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting comments from other users in the hope of resolving this issue. GoingBatty (talk) 06:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arriving here after noticing that User:BattyBot has approval to "Remove {{Dead end}} from articles with at least one wikilink", which goes against the wording of the template. There certainly needs to be clarification here: There are pages with no links, and pages with one or more but not enough links. Do we need to create {{morelinks}}, just as there is {{refimprove}} alongside {{unref}}? A bot can recognise an article with no links and flag it as such, but a bot should not be removing the tag an editor has assigned to say "this needs more links", just because it has one link. PamD 10:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, BattyBot won't be running the task to specifically remove {{dead end}} until this issue has been resolved. However, since this is one of AWB's general fixes, other people & bots using AWB might remove it. GoingBatty (talk) 03:09, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with what Almathea said. But, I don't see any real reason not to merge this with {{orphan}}; they serve the same purpose, and a merger of their wording and transclusions would simplify things. I'm hard pressed to think of any case using {{dead end}} that could not 100% appropriately be tagged wtih {{orphan}} or vice versa. The orphan template is much more frequently used, so I'd suggest that be the actual page name for the merged template. PS: The implication that this template is {[em|necessarily}} tied to use of {{wikify}} needs to be resolved, especially since (as someone else pointed out) "wikify" is being misused here to mean "linking" when it really means "conversion to wikicode". — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:39, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

{{orphan}} is about incoming links, {{dead end}} about outgoing links, no? Amalthea 08:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. GoingBatty (talk) 17:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If the purpose of {{dead end}} is to provide a way to clarify a {{wikify}}, and in particular to clarify that it's "about the outgoing links" rather than other formatting, then it follows to me that it would be nice to be able to apply {{dead end}} in all cases that {{wikify}} might be used in regard to outgoing links, which would, to me, suggest allowing the template to be used when there are a couple (simply not sufficient) outgoing links. I'm not bothered by the idea that "dead end" sounds like there are absolutely no outgoing links, if the template text itself is clear, I don't think there will be much confusion. --joe decker ^{talk to me} 14:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Joe - the current confusion is that the template text and documentation doesn't match Wikipedia:Dead-end pages, which states dead-end pages are those that have "no internal links to other Wikipedia articles." GoingBatty (talk) 17:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So? Don't get hung up on the template's title. The title isn't what controls the use of the template. We don't want to rename it to Template:Dead-end or nearly dead-end or at risk for becoming a dead-end article. We add this template when we believe that more outgoing links would be appropriate. If I were you, I'd have BattyBot's approval adjusted to work like {{Orphan}}, which is bot-removed when there are three incoming links, not just one (which might, after all, be an article that gets deleted or edited to remove the incoming link). WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:50, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Autotagging/autountagging with AWB

Do you think it would be OK to form a rule: "Remove this template is page has more than 4 wikilinks"? this would help AWB to work with it. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Magioladitis - anything that gets us closer to consensus would be great! GoingBatty (talk) 02:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since wikify is deprecated we can move the wikilinks rule here i.e. could tag for Dead end if article has < 3 wikilinks or the number of wikilinks is smaller than 0.25% of article's size. (Comments, categories, {{Persondata}}, infoboxes and {{Drugbox}} are excluded from wikilink and size count). -- Magioladitis (talk) 14:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can we find some data about the number of wikilinks in Good and featured articles? Removing if the page has more than 4 wikilinks wouldn't work at all. I think removing the dead end tag should be a very subjective thing. If AWB is going to remove the tag, it should attempt to overshoot. The standard for removing the tag should be much higher than the standard for adding. Ryan Vesey 14:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers I suggested above are the numbers used by AWB the last 3 years (at least). We can ofcourse adjust the numbers but I think they are a good start. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, although, I've disagreed with those numbers since I learned of AWB. I'd prefer AWB doesn't remove {{Dead end}}, at least until a study of some sort is done. At a minimum, can we set the removal bar high? < 5 wikilinks or the number of wikilinks is smaller than 5% of the articles size? That would average one wikilink every 20 words. The current featured article averages 20 words per sentence, so that number certainly isn't too high (one wikilink per sentence). Anything less, I feel a human eye should look at it. Ryan Vesey 20:03, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just a clarification: Removal by AWB is done when > 3 wikilinks AND number of wikilinks is greater than 0.25% of article's size. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but the and is really an or whichever is greater. If the greater one is true the smaller one will be. Ryan Vesey 21:35, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes this is true. Which number do you think we should change? Change 3 with 5 (for removing only) or something else? -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikify vs Dead end

Please check the discussion in Template_talk:Wikify#Wikify_vs_Dead_end. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikify is now deprecated. If we need more wikilinks then the correct tag is the "Dead end". -- Magioladitis (talk) 14:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to re-create Template:Internal links

In days of yore, this template, {{dead end}}, was only used on pages with no internal links, hence the name – such pages are dead ends because there's no way out except to go back the way you came in. Articles which weren't dead ends but could still use some more wikilinks were tagged with Template:Internal links. The two templates were merged in 2009, but I'm proposing to un-merge them.

Regardless of what the template text and the documentation say, I've only ever seen {{dead end}} used on pages with zero internal links. And that's not necessarily because people aren't reading the documentation; I've read it, and I'd still be reluctant to use the template on a page with several wikilinks. It would just seem counter-intuitive. "Dead end", to me (and I'm clearly not alone in this), means "no internal links", and that's how the term is used elsewhere on Wikipedia. This problem could be solved by simply re-naming the template, and that is initially what I was going to propose, but I think it probably would be useful to have two distinct categories for "articles with no links" and "articles that need more links". The former, I would hazard, are more of a problem than the latter.

So what I'm proposing is this. {{dead end}} should be reserved for articles with no internal links. {{Internal links}} should be re-created, to be used in articles with some internal links, but not enough. Any thoughts? DoctorKubla (talk) 07:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a side-note, this would fix all the issues with AWB auto-tagging. {{dead end}} could be added and removed by bots, while {{internal links}} would be a matter for human editorial judgement. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:12, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, we should also create a {{Wikilinks}} which could redirect to Internal links. Ryan Vesey 11:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Given the consensus, DoctorKubla, I see no reason why you should not recreate {{Internal links}} as soon as possible. Guoguo12 (Talk) 16:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, since there's no opposition (and a bit more consensus here), I've boldly created Template:Underlinked – there was a concern expressed that {{internal links}} was too ambiguous. I'll even more boldly change the wording of this template, then see if I can put together some documentation for the new one. I've never done this before, so apologies if I leave a horrible mess in my wake. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:07, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Articles that need to be wikified

Category:Articles that need to be wikified is, as I understand it, a holding category for pages tagged with the now-deprecated {{Wikify}}. It can be removed from this template, right? Guoguo12 (Talk) 16:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah go ahead, we already have the more specific Category:Dead-end pages. Ryan Vesey 17:13, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done ([2]). Guoguo12 (Talk) 16:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Small change to the definition of "dead end"

I was thinking of making a slight but significant amendment to the documentation. Where it currently reads:

This tag should only be added to pages with no internal links.

I'd like to change it to:

This tag should only be added to articles which have no internal links within the body of the article.

With a footnote that says:

Links within infoboxes, hatnotes, "See also" sections and Reference sections do not disqualify an article from dead-end status.

Could be worded better, perhaps, but you get the idea. Am I right in thinking that this is how "dead end" is usually interpreted? DoctorKubla (talk) 08:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I support the motion :) benzband (talk) 12:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I guess we can call that a consensus. I'll make the changes. DoctorKubla (talk) 16:36, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What's the consensus on wikilinks in image captions? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 03:31, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say image captions shouldn't be taken into consideration either. I'll add an "etc." to the footnote to broaden the field a bit. DoctorKubla (talk) 09:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note, though: The reason I didn't create an exhaustive list (and the reason I left out "See also" sections), is that I didn't want to create a condition which AWB and related bots couldn't meet. I've got no idea what kind of thing is technologically feasible; if identifying links in image captions is too much of a hassle, I don't suppose it matters all that much. DoctorKubla (talk) 09:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

AWB can't meet conditions anyway. Most probably we need to discontinue dead end tagging/untagging via AWB in English Wikipedia. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:19, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed that there's an issue because AWB hasn't been changed to match the new rules here. For example, Addbot seems to be following the new rules, where as my AWB-based BattyBot is following the old rules. They have been battling on certain articles, such as Beni-Chougrane (where the only wikilink is in an image caption) and In vitro recombination (where the only wikilink is within {{cleanup}}). GoingBatty (talk) 15:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The text of the tag should change too. The initial spirit of the tag was to add it to pages with absolutely no wikilinks. This change increases the pages that will be tagged. So the text needs to be updated to "This article has no links to other Wikipedia articles in it body text." I am not sure I agree with this new situation but I don't have a strong opinion. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't AWB be set to only tag pages with no wikilinks whatsoever? Or is it already? benzband (talk) 15:54, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

AWB is already coded so that it only tags pages with no wikilinks. However, it is also coded so that it removes the tag if there are wikilinks anywhere, which is where the battling has been occurring. GoingBatty (talk) 16:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, then we should disable untagging. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If this new rule is causing a problem, I'm happy to get rid of it. I floated the idea, no-one objected, so I went ahead, but it's not a big deal if consensus is against it. For what it's worth, I did put in a feature request, which was apparently added to some future revision, so I didn't think there was a problem with AWB not being able to meet the conditions. DoctorKubla (talk) 20:20, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@DoctorKubla: (Five months on) Unfortunately the current AWB "meets the conditions" by not removing any dead end tags at all (February code change). I guess that was the simplest way to ensure that AWB didn't make any invalid removals. Perhaps time for another discussion? -- John of Reading (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, alright. Clearly out of my depth with this techie stuff; I didn't realise my amendment would cause so much trouble. But since it's proving to be such an impediment to AWB's functionality, I'll remove the offending text from the documentation. Like I said, it's not a big deal. DoctorKubla (talk) 16:59, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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