Template talk:Historic England research records

Gateway

Greetings. Useful template. Especially with NHLE and IoE.

How do references like {{Citation |url= http://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=195646&resourceID=5|title= Church of All Saints, Theddlethorpe All Saints|publisher= Heritage Gateway ([[English Heritage]], Institute of Historic Building Conservation and [[ALGAO|ALGAO:England]])|year=2006|work=Heritage Gateway website | accessdate= 20 January 2011}} interelate? (see All Saints Church, Theddlethorpe
--Robert EA Harvey (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Template talk:National Heritage List for England entry which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:17, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pastscape end of life

The Pastscape site states that Pastscape will be shut down on 17 December 2020. Are there any plans to modify the links that use it? The template was used on 1770 pages on 7 December 2020.

It is not very obvious how it will work. Stamford Canal had an entry {PastScape|mnumber=1341736|mname= Summary of Navigation on the River Welland} which linked to https://www.pastscape.org.uk/hob.aspx?hob_id=1341736. I eventually found the record on HeritageGateway, but its url was https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=44bced6d-7aea-4954-8953-be062a22d72f&resourceID=19191. If I search for hob_id=1341738 (River Glen Navigation) the uid is different, but the resourceID is the same. Bob1960evens (talk) 13:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

May be worth contacting them to see if there is a conversion from the PastScape hob_id to the Heritage Gateway identifier so that we could create a new template and get a BOT to convert from one to the other. Doing it by hand will be difficult as locating the right entry at the new site is not easy. Keith D (talk) 16:34, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have just dropped them an e-mail to see if there is any way of converting from one to the other. Will see if there is a positive response to this. Keith D (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Bob1960evens: Looks like we will have nothing to do as I got the following quick response from the folks at Heritage Gateway.

Thank you for your e-mail. I have consulted on your enquiry and I’ve been informed that there is an equivalent identifier on the Historic England (HE) research records dataset which has replaced PastScape on the Heritage Gateway. The IT team at HE are currently working on redirecting to these records from PastScape so any bookmarked references will continue to work after the site has been closed. HE will not be decommissioning PastScape until these redirects are in place and have been tested.
I hope that this answers your question satisfactorily.
Best wishes
Nick Davis

Keith D (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like good news. Presumably the shutdown will not now take place on 17 December. Bob1960evens (talk) 23:33, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi guys, I've just done a quick change to test altering the URL as a prelude to moving the template. As far as I've checked it, it points to the correct record perfectly. During the process a bunch of questions occurred:

Name to move to? I'd originally thought 'Heritagegateway' or a shorter 'HEGATE', but while pondering the next question I became unsure either is a good choice.
It seems all Pastscape records are now described as "Historic England research records", where to include 'research records' in the citation?
While changes are being made are all the optional parameters still valid?
Will anyone help with updating the template documentation and perhaps adding some article content? The most detail I can currently find is a passing mention in Historic England Archive.

Any comments? Oh and if anyone discovers a problem with the change I made just revert it and I'll do my best to fix it.TiB chat 12:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bob1960evens: do you have a view? It seems @Keith D: is currently inactive, but I can wait a little longer for his return. I am now leaning toward a some answers. For the new name, I think "Historic England research records" with a redirect from EHRR, the work= field should display "Research Records (formerly PastScape)" or similar, the only optional parameters I'm uncertain about are the dates (I've never needed them) but this isn't important.TiB chat 12:13, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Trappedinburnley: I have only ever used the access-date field of the various date fields. I have no idea whether there is an easy way to check whether any of the other date fields are used by the existing Pastscape entries, but presumably, if the fields are retained, it makes the conversion process simpler. I'll be happy to help with template documentation and/or article content. When you say you have made the change, does that mean that a new template has already been created? Bob1960evens (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bob1960evens: All I've done thus far is altered the URL to point to the address you provided, but using the hobid (mnumber) for the uid instead of the hideous mass of hex code. I also altered the work field from PastScape to Heritage Gateway. I since realised that Heritage Gateway is a portal that provides access to more than just the old PastScape records. I can sort any of the technical stuff required with the moving this template to a new name, but would like it better if Keith was here to advise. He knows his stuff and there's bound to be a policy or uniformity issue I'm not thinking about.TiB chat 23:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Keith D: Happy to see you are active again. Do you have any views, or are you happy for me to crack on and see how it goes?TiB chat 16:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, yes I am back after PC dying and am slowly catching up on things. Unsure what you are proposing to do on this apart from the changes that you have already made. Maybe we need a set of templates for heritage gateway use or a parameter to indicate which subsection of data it is being used for. Keith D (talk) 20:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The change I made was just to prove that this template can be moved to a new name and the existing PastScape refs will still work (as Cite Pastscape does). I propose "Historic England Research Records" with a redirect from HERR (similar to NHLE). The work= field should display "Research Records (formerly PastScape)" perhaps with a link to the documentation page to explain the change. Obviously the documentation will need modification; I'm uncertain whether to direct people to the uid in the new URL or keep using the mnumbers which seem to still feature in the records as Hob Uid. It does seem that the other records available through the Heritage Gateway may suite templates of their own, but I'm currently not familiar enough to have an opinion. I can't see anything that is difficult to do, I'm most concerned with getting the name right, so it doesn't have to be moved again.TiB chat 22:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My attempts to be clever and ping @Keith D: from the edit summary have not worked, I had one more idea but if you can teach me how to do that also?? TiB chat 17:19, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure on the {{ping}} workings. I would go with your proposed naming, though a move may cause problems with double redirects that exist from {{cite PastScape}} to {{PastScape}} to the new template. I would keep using the mnumber so that we do not have to change any existing entries. Keith D (talk) 22:49, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I knew it was worth waiting for you! I expect we can fix the double redirect by pointing {{cite PastScape}} directly at the new name, but while contemplating this I realised an error in my thinking. I've been using {{NHLE}} rather than the full name of that template, assuming that the redirect was created as a shorthand method of using it. From reading the talkpage I see that {{NHLE}} exists because it was formerly named as such and moved to a less opaque option. To me a shorter name is undoubtedly a better name. Is creating a redirect solely for this purpose acceptable? Perhaps calling it simply 'Research-records' would be a better option?TiB chat 17:07, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What are you proposing calling Research-records - the redirect or the real template? I would still go with the original "Historic England research records" for the template or someone will want it moved from "Research-records" to be more specific. Personally I always use the short {{NHLE}} rather than the full name, so I would expect a short redirect to be created to cover the new template name. To answer an earlier question on dates - |date= is used 19 times and |year= 63. Keith D (talk) 19:57, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bob1960evens: and @Keith D:, I think we've waited long enough for any other interested editor to get involved. I can't think of anything we've not covered, so I plan to crack on. I've created a task list to summarise the changes per this discussion. Do you guys have anything else to add?TiB chat 10:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, probably after a few days, to allow for job queue & search list updating, do a search for PastScape to pick-up mentions in articles and change as appropriate. May be need to convert references to use the template. Keith D (talk) 10:22, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing else to add. Bob1960evens (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move task list

Move this template to {{Historic England research records}}

Done.

Create a redirect called {{HERR}} and point it to this template.

Done.

Re-point {{cite PastScape}}.

Done.

Modify the work parameter to display "Research records (formerly PastScape)".

Done.

Update/create links from other templates: {{NHLE}}, {{Canmore}}.

Done.

Expand the documentation with info on replacement of the PastScape website and instructions on obtaining the value for the mnumber parameter.

Done.

OK, I think I've finished. Now just the wait for someone to find a problem. All the best.TiB chat 12:08, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]