Talk:Cross-dressing, gender identity, and sexuality of Joan of Arc

Untitled

Notes:

This is the first draft of the proposed article suggested here. First off, some known issues:

• Title: It comes across as rather awkward to me. However, all three "topics" are closely related, and certainly don't each deserve their own article. Can someone suggest a better title? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rei (talk • contribs) 07:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Length: I was initially worried about this article being too short. Now, it may be too long, possibly even enough to give cause for arguments of undue weight. There's one easy solution that I see right offhand, if desired: with a few changes to make it less Joan-specific, "historical context" would (IMHO) make a great article on it's own right about female crossdressing in the middle ages, and a one para summary could reference it just fine. Any other ideas are quite welcome.
• "Other side": In the original discussion, I often heard claims from certain editors of an academic concensus about Joan's cross-dressing being only about necessity. Quite the opposite, in my collecting of sources to summarize the views presented, I had a problem with finding a *lack* of modern research to that effect. Not only a lack supporting a concensus, but a lack supporting that viewpoint. To avoid POV, I had to cite non-peer-reviewed sources like Pernoud to back up the supposed "consensus", and there weren't many of those to boot. Clearly, there must be other sources that were being referred to by the aforementioned editors. I not only welcome, but strongly encourage such additions. I want this to be as fair and balanced of an article as possible.

As some general notes: this article is highly referenced with WP:V sources. If there are problems with any of them, please let me know. Likewise, I've attempted to only report the authors' viewpoints, fairly and accurately, so as to avoid OR and SYN. If you see anything that you think is OR or SYN, please, by all means, let me know. Since this was shown to be a controversial issue among editors on the Joan of Arc talk, I think we need to stick to the highest academic standards. Since I have attempted to do this, I would expect other editors to do the same -- no unreferenced claims, and all sources must fall under WP:V. Note that I did allow some sources that weren't peer reviewed, like Pernoud, for two reasons: one, she was cited enough elsewhere that I felt comfortable filing her under the category of recognized experts publishing in their field of expertise; and two, without her, we would have had stronger WP:NPOV issues. For any sources added, I'd expect the same sort of adherence to Wikipedia's verifiability standards that I have attempted to maintain.

Does all of this sound fair and reasonable?

Lastly, if anyone wants credentials on any of the aforementioned authors, just ask. I'd also be glad to provide more details from the cited texts if anyone needs them. -- Rei 07:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in the updates; I've just been way too busy recently. -- Rei 15:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Title

The title is awful. How about simply "Joan of Arc's dress"? Or something simpler than the present title. hgilbert (talk) 20:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

A name change would be fine by me. I'd be interested in hearing a few more suggestions, of course. -- Rei (talk) 06:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Saint Margaret

It's been quite a few years since I went to Catholic school, but the link to St. Margaret points to a large disambiguation page. The Saint Margaret I think we want is Margaret the Virgin who is apparently confusable (and maybe identical to) Saint Pelagia and Marina the Monk, where the pregnancy story referenced in this article appears. Since I have no idea what I'm talking about, I don't want to change this page, but can somebody who can actually make sense of this fix the disambiguation? Thanks, CSZero (talk) 17:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Bug Report

Bug report filed for this article; looks like some sort of database problem going on:

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40616 -- Rei (talk) 14:18, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Bug seems to have resolved itself. -- Rei (talk) 17:45, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Bug is definitely not resolved. Reopening. -- Rei (talk) 12:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Restored edit function

I removed the "CrossdressingFooter" which caused several technical problems, among others the suppression of the edit function at the headings. Buchraeumer (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC) It even causes this on this page too. Buchraeumer (talk) 00:20, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

This page should be deleted

This page should be deleted. Joan of Arc did wear men's clothing into battle in France during the 15th Century, but despite what silly queer theorists and trans activists will claim there's no actual proof that she was trans/transgender, bisexual, or lesbian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.34.201.59 (talk) 04:59, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

"Page should be deleted" -I totally agree. It's just another example of certain groups trying to appropriate Joan of Arc for their "cause." Sorry, Joan is not the patron saint of cross-dressers, lesbians or feminists. She wore men's clothing for protection against rape. All you have to do is read what Thomas Aquinas said about it (at least that is included in this article). She was straight as an arrow and her politics were "Monarchist" - she believed in the divine right of kings (obviously). Not too many of those around today. She wouldn't fit in with today's society - either politically or morally. --Topcat777 23:32, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

St Thomas Aquinus is NOT a reliable source! Bjd10213 (talk) 00:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

There are many WP:Reliable sources on Joan of Arc's gender identity and sexuality. Our job as Wikipedians is not to determine the truth - that's WP:Original research - but compile what reliable sources have said in as neutral a manner as we can.

If you have sources rebutting the idea that Joan of Arc was queer, feel free to add them, but this article has sources. This topic is notable.

TypistMonkey (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

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"Silly queer theorist[]" here. A retrospective reading of historical figues as LGBT+ will always be contingent on today's 'categories' (see e.g. Altman 1993, Foucault 1990, D'Emilio 1983, Halperin 1990, Weeks 1981). As Foucault (1978, 1990) arguably has best demonstrated, categories such as 'homosexual' did not even exist prior to the 19th century (see History of Sexuality). As such, 'actual proof' will never be an accusation of 'transgenderism' during trial, but instead will emerge from historical accounts of Joan's dressing habits. Statements made at the trial (primary sources) and historical accounts of her trial (secondary sources) are 'proof'. For further reading on the contingencies of re-reading historical trans* identities see Valentine (2007) pp. 29-35. Itssosophs (talk) 02:53, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

They are not proof of anything related to "gender-identity", this is merely a presentism.

Dressing in male clothing and armour and cutting her hair short tallies with a woman acting as a commander in a medieval army, not any comment on her sexuality or being "trans" 17:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC) 86.14.27.216 (talk) 17:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

References