Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Crystal Dynamics video games/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by NapHit 02:06, 8 January 2013 [1].

List of Crystal Dynamics video games

Featured list candidates/List of Crystal Dynamics video games/archive1

Nominator(s): — ΛΧΣ²¹ 15:44, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Crystal Dynamics was best known for developing the Legacy of Kain and Gex series, but in 2003 the studio became known for the development of the best-selling Tomb Raider franchise after its original developer, Core Design, failed to gain critical or commercial success with their later Tomb Raider games. In 2006, Tomb Raider: Legend was released; it became the fastest selling game in the series and eventually sold 4.5 million units worldwide. Crystal Dynamics then co-developed Tomb Raider: Anniversary, a remake of the first Tomb Raider game, with developer Buzz Monkey Software, and released it in June 2007. The next installment, Tomb Raider Underworld, was released on November 2008 on next-generation consoles. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 15:44, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from --Tomcat (7) 18:33, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose because you hardly used other sites except Allgame, which is not very reliable especially regarding dates. You did not wrote the full dates, you avoided listing all platform dates and the table is odd. For example, this site state November 16, 2004, (it is Crash 'n Burn by the way) but you just inserted the year. Suggest you use the format in List of Looking Glass Studios video games, which is far more attractive, comprehensive and neat. But I oppose largely because it appears that you have not researched very well. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 17:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually you should use the format in List of Square video games for consistency. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 17:11, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IGN is not reliable for release dates. I wrote all platform dates on videogames with different dates for different platforms. I don't know what you mean with "consistency"; List of The Simpsons video games, which is a featured list, uses this format, so I see no reason to change it. Oh and by the way, Crash N' Burn was released in 1993, not November 16, 2004. The version showcased in that article is not developed by Crystal Dynamics, so it has no place on this list. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 17:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"because you hardly used other sites except Allgame"?, List of Square video games, which you mentioned above, hardly used other sites except GameSpot. Are you really aware of how this lists are made? — ΛΧΣ²¹ 17:24, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment: The histmerge template makes me concerned about stability. Until that's taken care of, I can't really offer any other comments. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The hist merge template is because I made a mistake. No one else has edited the list (I created it actually), so it's not of concern. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 21:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, then. I few more comments.
Why isn't Tomb Raider (2013 video game) on this list?

I was hesitant to include it since it's still on development . Should I include it?

Yes, definitely. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done.

I don't think the abbreviation of Crystal Dynamics to "Crystal" is necessary or encyclopedic.

Where is it? o.0 Fixed.

Is there a source for the claim that Crystal Dynamics was the first licensed developer for the 3DO?

Added.

Is there a source for the Christmas 1993 launch of the 3DO, or for its commercial failure?

Added.

I think the "new 32-bit, 3D-capable" part is a bit extraneous for a quick summary like this.

Changed to "became a publisher for two new gaming consoles".

The first sentence of the second paragraph is unclear. Is 2003 when Crystal Dynamics took over the series, or is it when they became known for Tomb Raider? In either case, I think the sentence is too long and convoluted—try chopping it up into two or three smaller ones.

I chopped it.

Is there a source for the claim that the company was best known for Gex and Legacy of Kain?

Added.

You mention that Tomb Raider: Legend was "released", but you don't specify that Crystal Dynamics developed it, which makes it a bit vague given the context.

I rewrote the rest of the paragraph. Take a look.

The last two sentences seem to lose the summary focus of the lead, getting bogged down in details. Maybe summarize that the company continued to work on the Tomb Raider series, mentioning names and dates in a concise manner.

Above.
That's it for now. I'll be back with more comments soon. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed all. If you have more concerns, I'd be glad to solve them. Thanks. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 00:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Added one more note above. Still have a few more things to add.
Is this template compatible with screen readers? I'm not terribly well-versed in all of this myself, but it's an important issue.
Yes, it is.

I think it might be best to move the discussion of Crystal Dynamics' business history to later on in the lead. All of that stuff about the company being acquired bogs down the pacing of the intro. Maybe change the second sentence to: "Based in the San Francisco Bay Area, Crystal Dynamics was the first licensed...". Shove the other material to the end of the first paragraph, maybe.
Done. Moved the acquisition history to the end of the first paragraph.

The image's rationale says it's non-free, but, legally, I don't think that's the case. I recommend getting some advice from the copyright experts before taking action, but stuff like File:Square Enix logo.svg and File:Square logo.png is free.
I don't exactly know how to do in this case; let me document myself. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 20:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I have uploaded the image to commons with the correspondend license and requested deletion of the local copy. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 20:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After these are taken care of, I'll support. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Looks solid. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Statυs (talk) 22:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Status:

San Francisco Bay Area → of?
launch time → launch game
994 → 1994
Unsure why the logo is in a thumbnail?
How about adding a bit of an overview/summary write-up, like in List of The Simpsons video games?
Publisher(s) → Publisher, when there's only one, and Publishers when there are more than one.

Statυs (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed all but the later, which is virtually impossible to solve. Thanks for your comments :) — ΛΧΣ²¹ 22:26, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll allow it. Statυs (talk) 22:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Good work! Statυs (talk) 04:12, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The list looks good, and according to my point I can't find any particular issues in it. Good job! — Tomíca^(T2ME) 19:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please re-read my comments above, and then ask yourself what you forgot to change. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 19:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
From what I read, nothing. If you are talking about the table, it will stay as it is :) — ΛΧΣ²¹ 19:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, not the table. There is another thing that was not changed.--Tomcat (7) 19:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me; I'm blind and couldn't see it yet. Your comments were (and my responses):
"Didn't write all dates": They are not available. usually, games released before 1996/97 are difficult to track their specific release date.

"You avoided listing all platform dates": this is only needed when platform dates vary.

"For example, this site state November 16, 2004, (it is Crash 'n Burn by the way) but you just inserted the year": That game wasn't developed by Crystal Dynamics. It is a remake by other studio that was released 11 years after the original and thus doesn't belong to this list.

I see no other comments. If I missed something, please let me know. I'm blind sometimes, and I apologize for that. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 20:18, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Crash n' Burn should be Crash 'n Burn :). Regards.--Tomcat (7) 20:22, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OH. That is. Yep, I'm blind sometimes. I'll fix it now. Thanks Tomcat. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 20:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:21, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Don't like the floating image in the lead, please add an informative caption to it.
Done.
Link to Crash 'n Burn (video game) is a dab link.
It wasn't two days ago. I fixed it.
"first licensed developer for 3DO" followed by "Panasonic's original 3DO console" surely you should introduce the 3DO as Panasonic's console first time round....?
Done.
" the PlayStation and" is that the Playstation console or the generic Playstation brand you seem to be linking?
The console. Fixed the link.
"best known..." and "became known for..." all a little wishy-washy, let's be factual.
Don't know who wrote that. I changed it back to what I wrote.
Should Tomb Raider be italicised or not?
Yes. Don't know who wrote the unitalicized occurrence.
" of secondary studios" I don't know what a "secondary studio" is.
Changed.
" it has developed" reiterate Crystal here instead of just "it"
Done.
Suitably link "reboot" in this context.
Done.
Lead spends most of its time discussing the history of the company, not the video games, of which this is supposed to be a list. Would suggest reworking it to highlight the notable games rather than dwell on the history of the company which is better served in the main article about the company.
The history of the company is key to understand the continuity of the games the studio developed. I can expand a bit on the second paragraph about notable games, but the story needs to be there.
At least one ref calls the game "Crash N Burn", not "Crash n' Burn"...
Changed to 'Crash N Burn.

The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I have adressed all ~~but the lead~~. I will expand the second paragraph with more relevant information about the games. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 22:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the lead with pertinent information about their games. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 23:17, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

~~"Crystal Dynamics gained the rights of the fanchise in 1998...". "fanchise" → "franchise". Also, I'm thinking that "of" should be "to" for the sake of the sentence as a whole.~~
~~In the photo caption, the comma should be removed.~~
~~Note 14: "windows" needs capitalization.~~
~~In ref 2, the pp. should instead be p., as this is a single-page cite. If you're using the citation templates, changing the pages= parameter to page= will fix this.~~ Giants2008 (Talk) 23:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed all. Thanks Giants. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 01:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Makes me sad that you just use a bare wikitable instead of the other VG game list templates. This way focuses most of the attention on the platforms, while still jamming together multiple platforms by the same company, losing region-specificity, and yet not gaining sorting functionality. Oh well.
I don't use a bare wikitable... I use {{ListEntry/VG}}... :)
"showcases the correspondent title"? Did you mean "corresponding"?
Done.
You link the first 3 genres, but not "shooter". Or "action", or "adventure".
Done.
And you link Sega Saturn the fourth time you use it in the table.
Done.
You should link Feral Interactive and Square Enix in the table (each only used once).
Done.
Are all these release dates for the NA region? Or just the first place the game was released (likely the same thing)?
First region it was released for each platform.
Were none of them released in other regions if this is just NA?
Indeed, but I specified only the first date, regardless of the region.
Can you really not find more specific released dates for any of the '90s games? (or the 2006 mobile Pandemonium release)? 'Cause a quick peek at Gamespot is giving me full year-month-day for all the Gex games, at least- the 90s weren't that long ago. I know you like Allgame, but... that lack of specificity is exactly why I don't use it in my lists. (well, that and it's biased away from Japanese games and my lists are heavy on those.)
I was recommended not to use GameSpot as a source for dates while on my Sinistar: Unleashed FAC. So, what should I do? Can I use IGN? I don't know if GameInformer holds a pre-2000 game database. I will check again.
Remove the (s) from "Publisher(s)" for rows that have only one publisher, and make it "Publishers" if there's multiple. They're not column headers like "Platform(s)", there's no need to be generic.
Fixed the code of {{ListEntry/VG}}.
Find a way to make Game Boy Color fit on one line (GBC?) or find a way to denote when there's two platforms in a box besides the line break- right now it looks like some games were released for the "Game Boy" as well as the "Color" (or alternately, that some were released for the "Windows Xbox 360").
I made each console to fit a single line. I guess this fixes the issue.
Did I mention that I really don't like this table format? Though I do like the regimented release details style, you're dropping details and squashing others.
You have "Crash N Burn" in the table and "Crash 'n Burn" in the lead (as a redirect, as well.) "Tomb Raider" in the lead is also a redirect, as is California.
Done
Other redirects that don't look intentional- Mac OS X, Sega Dreamcast, GameCube, Whiplash, Microsoft Corporation, Crash N Burn in the table.
Done.
I wish the "notes" were integrated into the table, but that's more of a personal preference thing, I think.
I don't find a way to make them look good inside the table...
Consider archiving your refs- video game sites can be ephemeral, and all the data your citing here is more than usual subject to change without notice. --Pres N 05:09, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh painful process that is. I will do it slowly, first on the non-Allgame refs, then the rest.
--Pres N 05:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay. I think I have adressed all. Sorry for the late response, I was handling the issues of my FAC :) — ΛΧΣ²¹ 20:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - No worries, that was quite quick, and overnight for me. I didn't realize that you had made your own template- guess we're up to 3 different VG template styles in addition to a few variants on straight wikitables used in FLs/FLCs. Oh well, every company is different-it's not a format I'll likely use, but I'm not going to oppose over different aesthetics if it gets the job done. I'm going to let it go about the different regions- if you don't feel it's as important for Crystal Dynamics (as an American company) as it is for Square Enix (as a Japanese company) to list out the different releases for each region, that's your call. Changed to Support, good job. --Pres N 22:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yeah, As an american company, I considered that adding all the regions isn't important. Thank you for your comments PresN :) — ΛΧΣ²¹ 22:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can somebody explain me what is the advantage of bunching the release data into one cell instead of having three columns which are sortable? Nergaal (talk) 09:15, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Why do we need to give so much space and highlight to release dates? The games are already ordered by release date from earliest to latest, and release dates of each game are ordered per alphabetical console names. I don't find it useful to make a column for each release date per region. It is not attractive and looks indiscriminate. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 18:13, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - However, you find it attractive or indiscriminate, but the readers will be happy to find the information they are searching for. Your Template:ListEntry/VG, created by you without discussion, has numerous missing information that are necessary.--Tomcat (7) 18:04, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - I guess that after receiving the approval of PresN, nothing else needs to be discussed about how the template is designed. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 18:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      - You would be better served discussing the merits of each template at the relevant wiki project than here, this is not the place to discuss it. NapHit (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.