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This is the discussion page for good article nominations (GAN) and the good articles process in general. To ask a question or start a discussion about the good article nomination process, click the Add topic link above. Please check and see if your question may already be answered; click the link to the Frequently asked questions below or search the Archives below. If you are here to discuss concerns with a specific review, please consider discussing things with the reviewer first before posting here.

British Birds Rarities Committee appears to be miscategorized

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It's listed under "Biologists", which doesn't sound right, and I'm not sure how to fix this. Rusalkii (talk) 17:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What would be a better placement? CMD (talk) 06:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting off Brooklyn from Architecture – Buildings of the United States

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There's 35-40ish Brooklyn architecture GAs, how do people feel about me boldly splitting them off into their own little subdivision? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Good articles/Art and architecture#Architecture – Buildings of the United States
Well, it's no Manhattan, but 35-40ish is a decent number. CMD (talk) 10:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And it's not as if Epic's going to stop writing them ;) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 10:25, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Premeditated Chaos I split off the UK Buildings, I'd say to be bold with the subcategories. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 06:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate them being raised here, we currently have subcategories so small they can be reduced to 0 by GARs. CMD (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TyphoonAmpil

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TyphoonAmpil is currently having his first review, which is not a problem, he's already pretty experienced! But since he got a bit wrong in this review, saying i fix Errors Tomorrow, I just want to ask for an experienced reviewer to help this newcomer to review this article. Thanks, 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 04:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article needs copy-editing before it passes GA 1a. Owing to its short length, this shouldn't be a major issue and could probably be resolved in timely fashion within the review. Looking only at the section mentioned by TyphoonAmpil, I found the following examples. The Guangdong Provincial Meteorological Bureau hoisted a level three emergency response plan, while the Fujian counterpart hoisted level four. Hoist as a verb means to lift an object particularly by ropes and/or pulleys. This is near certainly not the correct verb to use. In ... the residents were also warned for proposed showers and downpours a more natural wording would be either 'of expected' or 'about expected'. A more subtle example is [a] more severe amount .... There is nothing severe or intense about a numerical figure. I would avoid the phrasing entirely for tone, but if retained it should be made clear that the airport experienced severe/intense rain rather than the figure being severe/intense. I also suspect that 'Severe Tropic Storm Lionrock' should be re-titled 'Severe tropical storm Lionrock' following WP:LOWERCASE as the term 'tropical storm' is not a proper noun and doesn't appear to be forming a proper noun when joined to Lionrock – particularly gauging from the lack of capitalization of the term in the Chinese government sources cited. With regard to TyphoonAmpil, whilst I appreciate the productive intent of the editor, I'm afraid that instructions such as Not say letters own find Typo click edit indicate a command of English too limited to properly assess criterion 1a. One last thing, with regard I don't think you should fix the errors; you should spot the errors instead so I can fix it, that how GA reviewing works. Minor issues or errors can be fixed by the reviewer, as specified in the reviewing instructions: [i]n the case of a marginally non-compliant nomination, if the problems are easy to resolve, you may be bold and fix them yourself. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:27, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Replying from my alt) Going to fix the issues, do you mind being the co-reviewer? Jettward (talk) 13:04, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I can co-review it for you. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HurricaneEdgar was also picked as a co-reviewer, making three reviewers for the single GA nom. Jettward (talk) 01:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the issues. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 01:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Buggy GA?

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Despite getting passed earlier, Bazaruto Island isn't showing the GA badge, and the bot keeps adding a "Bazaruto Island/GA2" template. I'm confused. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 06:57, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The GAN template was not replaced properly so the bot thought it was still a nomination. This seems to have fixed it, but I edited it a bit further. Probably not an issue that needs fixing, but courtesy ping Mike Christie in case the behaviour is odd. CMD (talk) 07:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was too optimistic. Given it is still listed at GAN, I've created Talk:Bazaruto Island/GA2 in the meantime, it should be deleted when this is solved. CMD (talk) 09:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
huh CMD (talk) 09:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now it's a good good article. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at it now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem was caused by the GAR for Flag of Ecuador. To report GARs on the GAN page the bot looks back at the history of all GAs, back to 2006, which I extracted in order to be able to do historical reporting. It turns out that for about 150 of those historical records the nominator's username was not correctly extracted, so when the bot tried to build the GAR entry it couldn't find the user. I've fixed the database for that GAR; the bot should run again shortly and I *think* it will be fine this time round. I'll fix the other bad records and that should prevent a recurrence. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:53, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I, what?? CMD (talk) 13:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Um, sorry? What's the question? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More an expression of surprise that the GAR for the Flag of Ecuador article was causing weird bugs with the GAN for the Bazaruto Island article. CMD (talk) 14:25, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it was two independent bugs. The database had the nominator for the flag article as "Zscout370 [[..." instead of just "Zscout370", and when the bot tried to pull up the user information for user "Zscout370 [[..." it caused a crash. The GARs are processed late in the bot run, so the Bazaruto Island issue which you fixed was visible because the bot had not yet crashed. I haven't looked to see what happened there -- it's harder to trace if the bug is not still happening. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:13, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like the fix worked. CMD (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA categories

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While going through the list of good articles, I noticed that there were some categories that are quite large. As more articles get promoted, some of these categories might benefit by being split up. This will help readers navigate these pages to find good articles.

Listed below are my suggestions for splitting some categories. The goal was for each categories to have under 300 articles, an arbitrary number I picked because most categories at WP:FA are below that number. I chose not to split some categories (Warships of Germany, American football people) because I could not think of a place to split them that would make sense with the other categories in their grouping. Each suggested category is listed in separate brackets.

In addition, there are some television series that have their own categories, even with only one entry, while multiple episodes of a series will be listed in Other episodes and specials. How many episodes should be the minimum for a category in this section?

Would editors be OK with initiating these splits? Should these names be used, or other ones? Should 300 be the target number in each category, or should another maximum number be used? Are the suggested divisions the best places to split these categories? Z1720 (talk) 00:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

imo, European history being separated into "British Isles" and "Continental Europe" will probably be easier than Eastern/Western. The borders of what is east and west are arguable. Whether something is in the British Isles or not is more clear-cut. -- asilvering (talk) 00:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Id probably change the split to Association football teams, events, and concepts: (Association football teams and stadiums) (Association football seasons, events, matches, and concepts)
The main reason is that there is quite a bit of overlap between the seasons and events. These tend to be about the matches that the teams have had. Teams and stadium articles are much more higher level concepts and would fit neatly into one section. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 05:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We've had some discussion on how to split historical/royal biographies and events before, but haven't found something that's convenient. Proposed split of Midwestern United States sounds practical and within current practice. For the proposed split of political figures, continental divisions get weird around the edges and they're not political, so I'm wondering if pulling out one or two countries would be better (also open to say, political groupings like the EU). For Media and Music, those do some broad categories that could be split, assuming there are no very half-half director actors or similar. Lee Vilenski's split on Association football seems sound, might have to take a closer look at stadiums. On the broad question of numbers, I generally look at it with an eye for somewhere between 20/25 (where it forms a clear paragraph-length chunk that shows it is a topic with clear work) and around 200 (where, depending on the length of individual entries, the block starts to get longer than laptop screen lengths). CMD (talk) 07:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support the Historical figures and Political figures splits and would prefer both of them to be grouped by location (NA, Eu, Other). Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:31, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with both Vacant0 and CMD that "EU" is a better term than "Europe". Again, seems more clear cut. Unless someone can come up with some hypothetical edge cases that seem messier that way? -- asilvering (talk) 13:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a strong opinion on which is better, but "EU political figures" is potentially a much narrower scope than "European political figures": for example, the former would arguably only include British political figures who were active between 1973 and 2020, whereas the latter would presumably include any British political figures ever. I can think of edge-cases for both options (are Turkish and/or Russian politicians European political figures vs. is someone like Mary Docherty, who retired from active politics before Britain joined the EU, but lived for nearly 30 years after, an EU political figure? What about someone like Anthony Eden, who was still in the House of Lords until he died in 1977, but was essentially politically irrelevant after he resigned as prime minister in 1957?) Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 13:59, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Caeciliusinhorto-public, I thought of Eden's case (not him specifically, but that kind of person), but isn't he supposed to be in "Historical figures - politicians" anyway? -- asilvering (talk) 16:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's certainly a grey area as to where the line is drawn between "Political figures" and "Historical figures: politicians", but for what it's worth I see a few nineteenth century figures in the former category (e.g. James Dillon Armstrong) – and at least one eighteenth-century figure, John Mathews (American pioneer). Of course, it may be the case that they ought to be recategorised entirely. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:40, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On reflection, I'm not sure my concern about EU being more clear-cut is relevant anyway, since GAN doesn't really end up having acrimonious disputes about which categories ought to exist and what ought to be in them, at least not as far as I've seen. I do still prefer "British Isles" vs "Continental Europe" over Eastern/Western Europe, though. -- asilvering (talk) 16:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The line per the existing hidden notes is BLP, living people go into Political figures, dead people go into Historical figures. CMD (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I might go through the list and make sure people are in the correct spots. If the split happens, I can do this at the same time. Z1720 (talk) 18:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) The EU doesn't include Switzerland, Norway, the UK, and some Balkan and eastern European countries, though that list will probably change over the next few years. I think geographical categories make more sense than political ones, as they are more stable. No strong opinion on UK/Ireland vs. continental Europe or Western vs. Eastern Europe, but I suspect the former is going to be easier to manage. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My bad, I did not mean the European Union, but instead Europe as a whole. This would mean including countries from this list: List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some countries on that list also appear on List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia. CMD (talk) 06:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely the confusion I intended to avoid by suggesting "EU" instead. But if we simply accept that placing a relevant article in either category is fine, I think we can just choose not to have the problem in the first place. -- asilvering (talk) 16:20, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"British Isles" will of course get us into other problems :) CMD (talk) 16:49, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If someone created an article on something Turkey (nation) related and it's placed in either Europe or Asia, the article will be reviewed swiftly either way. On the other hand, as someone *not* interested in English/Irish/Isle related articles, I would be happy to more easily find the other articles. The goal of these categories shouldn’t be to find perfect ontologies but to make sure more niche content doesn’t get drowned among the most popular candidates. I frequently check Business Economics, and Society related categories since my topics of interest frequently fit both. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that "British Isles" by itself is a problematic name, especially to the Irish community. Some options could be "British Isles: England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland" or "England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland". EU is not a great idea because the countries in the EU are constantly changing, while the borders of Europe are pretty static. Also, EU politicians in the news are often still identified from the country they are from, and involved in that country's politics before, during and after being part of the EU. Z1720 (talk) 00:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A geographical option is "Great Britain and Ireland"; "United Kingdom and Eire" could work as well, with "Continental Europe" probably the simplest option for the rest. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:57, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If using Èire, make sure to write it as I have. Also, I recommend not using the term 'British Isles': Great Britain and Ireland will offend no one Billsmith60 (talk) 17:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh indeed. I have no particular love for "British Isles" as the name of the category; my intent was simply to suggest that the continental divide is probably an easier and more relevant one to use than eastern/western. -- asilvering (talk) 18:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely! Billsmith60 (talk) 07:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's one way to describe the Manx. CMD (talk) 02:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Éire – duhh! Billsmith60 (talk) 07:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the borders of Europe are pretty static is definitely not true. The concept of Europe has historically crept east, as it continues to do today. CMD (talk) 05:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grande Ronde River

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I have offered to take over the review of Grande Ronde River. The article nominator, Shannon1, and the previous reviewer, Generalissima, have both said that they are happy for me to do this. Could I ask for some advice on the best way to proceed please? Should I request a G6 deletion of Talk:Grande Ronde River/GA1 or should I simply create Talk:Grande Ronde River/GA2? If a G6 deletion is the best way forward, where should I request this?
Thanks, Mertbiol (talk) 21:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As there's been no meaningful exchanges at the GA page, I'll G6 and reset the talk page. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks AirshipJungleman29! ~~ Mertbiol (talk) 21:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns about a new GA review circles coordinator

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I was going to post this here on @PCN02WPS's talk page at first, but having read through it, I think it should be posted somewhere with greater visibility. I may be pinging @GMH Melbourne too many times today now, but I'll do so as a courtesy since GARC is also something you've primarily organized.

Hi there, I don't want to come off as discourteous, but I have concerns that make me believe @TheNuggeteer should step down from being a coordinator for the time being (at least until he is able to demonstrate better understanding of the GAN process). I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest he needs additional experience with Wikipedia and the GAN process to become a coordinator for GARC.

Many of his recent GANs have had significant concerns brought up by editors:

In addition to his GA reviews:

As coordinator, his circles have also had significantly less scrutiny than the ones organized by other coordinators. To provide one example of contrast, one coordinator previously left a message on @IntentionallyDense's talk page advising him that he would need additional experience reviewing articles before participating in the GARC process. However, TheNuggeteer's GA review circles have included editors with dramatically less experience, which you can see here (such as one editor with 153 edits). Most recently, a circle had to be re-organized after he failed to follow step four of the coordinator instructions.

To TheNuggeteer, I want to say I really hope you don't take this badly; I'm only saying that I believe you need to learn more about the GAN/article-writing process first before taking on a role like this. I also think for the benefit of GARC, proposed coordinators should have greater scrutiny (with clear minimum requirements) in the future, before being added. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 23:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Freedom4U Hmm, seems like a good option, since I could actually use more time to make more GA's.
But anyway, I don't feel like those quickfailed noms are recent (for me), and after, I have eight other successful reviews and 2 GAs, so I probably don't know. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 23:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your more recent nominations don't inspire much confidence in me either. Your nomination of Typhoon Chanthu (2010) five days ago had to be reverted as a drive-by nomination and after your nomination at Talk:.tv/GA1 failed, you immediately nominated it again without making changes. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 23:40, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This may not be the best place to put this but since I was tagged here and it’s somewhat related to the topic I think it may be a good idea to put some restrictions in place at GARC to avoid newer editors from getting overwhelmed. When I first applied to be apart of the GARC I had only done 3 GARs and I’m really glad the coordinator suggested I got more experience first as I did need it. My proposal would be requiring people who are entering the GARC to have reviewed at least 5 GAs beforehand. 5 is kind of a random number so if anyone has other suggestions please let me know but I do feel implementing some form of restrictions may help with the future of GARCs. IntentionallyDense (talk) 23:26, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although it's not common, there are people who don't write much content but still have a good grasp of how to evaluate the GA criteria and review an article. I would have no issue with someone putting their first ever GAN up at GARC if they're already proven themselves a capable reviewer. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn’t have an issue with this either however I do think they should demonstrate they know how to do a review which I don’t know how else that could be demonstrated unless they’ve done a review in the past. We could also say either reviewed or nominated 5 GAs that way people who haven’t done a review but have nominated enough GAs to show they understand could participate. IntentionallyDense (talk) 23:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with that. I think any combination of five successful GANs and GA reviews (that were not quickfails; e.g. 2 successful nominations and 3 well-done reviews) is a reasonable standard to participate, so long as there aren't any other pressing issues. Imo coordinators should also scrutinize at least one of these to make sure they're good, but I also don't want to force volunteers to do more work if it's just going to create a backlog (it looks to me that both coordinators aren't as active as they used to be). ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 01:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like saying this, but I don't think the editor should be reviewing GAs, and I have doubts about at least one of their articles that were promoted to GA. Drmies (talk) 01:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have to agree. I have seen a marked improvement in their quality of reviews, but I did spend some time co-reviewing a few articles [1], [2] after I saw them comment I think that after "a personal friend of Klein", the comma should be a dot instead, and the next word will be capitalized. on this text:
Directed by Véras Fawaz, a personal friend of Klein, the music video for "Europapa" was premiered live on De Avondshow met Arjen Lubach at 16:45 CET, followed by a release on the Eurovision Song Contest channel on YouTube ten minutes later.
I like TheNuggeteer, and honestly think they've done good work with GACR, but I don't think they're able to evaluate 1a of the Good article criteria just yet. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to comment on TheNuggeteer's reviews later, but in the meantime, would I be able to take over the coordinator position? I don't think I'm an exceptional reviewer by any means and don't have any GAs, but I have done a fair amount of reviews.
In terms of my approach to GARC, I think to make them work at increasing the number of reviews, they should be frequent. I don't think newer reviewers should be excluded, as long as they are mentored in some way, i e. with a second pair of eyes looking over the review, which helps them with understanding what they should be looking for in a review. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1a and 3a in Reception sections with isolated reviewers

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In some GANs (looking at books, in particular), the Reception sections are written with dedicated paragraphs summarizing each reviewer in isolation, often with heavy quoting, and little to no attempt to connect themes with other reviews. Sometimes this is by necessity, say, if there are only three reviewers and there is little connection to the other reviews. But most often there are plenty of reviews and opportunities to engage with the guidance in Wikipedia:Copyediting reception sections, weaving reviewers together for a general audience to understand the holistic reception. The latter, to me, is the minimum quality bar for the "well-written" (1a) and "breadth" (3a) GA criteria. In my experience, this also reduces heavy quoting, which pushes the boundaries of fair use paraphrase, even when attributed. It also requires more effort.

For some examples of the variance, see The Oxford Guide to the Book of Common Prayer: A Worldwide Survey#Critical reception or A History of English Food#Reception for separate paragraphs per reviewer, and Sappho: A New Translation#Reception or How the Red Sun Rose#Reception for combined paragraphs across reviewers.

What is our general working expectation for GANs? Is it sufficient for GAN breadth and writing quality to plop summaries of each review without connection, or are editors expected to connect the reviews for a general audience when available? czar 02:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this needs more attention, and I consider an unorganized assortment of opinions and quotes to fail the GA criteria. The majority of the time when reviewing an article about some piece of media, I have to ask the nominator to fix the reception section because it's a list of quotes. In this case, I usually consider it a criterion 2 failure in relation to copyright and failing to properly paraphrase the source. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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