Category talk:Sinn Féin MPs

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Ireland

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Politics

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Politics of the United Kingdom

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This category was nominated for deletion on 8 August 2015. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This category was nominated for deletion on 20 September 2015. The result of the discussion was do not rename.

Scope

There is a clear separation between Sinn Fein MPs before 1923 and after. It has been discussed at length before - [1] & [2]. Snappy (talk) 18:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. What's your point? Gob Lofa (talk) 18:12, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There should be clear distinctions between pre 1923 Sinn Fein and post in order to avoid confusion, with later incarnations of parties with the same name. Why are you only adding Michael Collins, why not de Valera? Snappy (talk) 18:30, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well you're not allowed to distinguish by denying they were SF; you'll have to find some other way. I haven't got to Dev yet. Gob Lofa (talk) 20:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not denying they were SF, they (pre-1923) are in Category:Early Sinn Féin politicians. This is to distinguish them from modern parties of the same name but no direct (or indirect) connection. How could a category with Collins, De Valera and Gerry Adams be coherent?

Also they are both sub-categories of Category:Sinn Féin politicians. Snappy (talk) 18:47, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with Snappy ----Snowded ^TALK 21:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'd argue modern SF, like FF and FG, have a direct connection to early SF; they are all descended from it. The thing is, Collins wasn't just an early SF politician (and I've no problem with his inclusion in that category); he was also a SF MP. Your idea of coherence differs from mine, I reckon; all three were great cheerleaders for the murders of policemen and soldiers. Gob Lofa (talk) 21:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Connection clear to history but not synonymous at the time. and don't be disingenuous you know the political position you are taking ----Snowded ^TALK 22:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I favour the "Category:Sinn Féin politicians (1905–1926)" style, because then you can detail briefly what SF it is at the category page. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:19, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The position I'm taking is Wikipedia's; the Sinn Féin article covers over a century. Whose decision was it that the categories ought to depart from that? Not mine. Gob Lofa (talk) 00:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, we need to de-politicise this debate. Once we start talking about "cheerleaders for the murders of policemen and soldiers" we know we're not talking about the information value of categories. Now, the question is, is it useful to the reader to lump in a large cohort of 1918–22 MPs with the much smaller number of post-1983 MPs? I would argue that it is not, for two reasons. One, it is two distinct periods with a difference of sixty years between them, and categories are meant to link to pages within a single topic. Two, all Sinn Féiners elected MP in the earlier period are in Category:Members of the 1st Dáil by virtue of their election as MP. They therefore do not need to be added to another cat with the same criteria. Having said that, this description is a bit awkward. It suggests that there were Sinn Féin MPs elected continuously from 1923 on, and doesn't explain to the uninitiated why there should be a distinction. I suggest, since this is a subcat of Category:Members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom for Northern Irish constituencies, that it be renamed Category:Sinn Féin MPs for Northern Irish constituencies. The scope will then be clear. --Scolaire (talk) 08:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Scolaire's suggestion for renaming this category to Category:Sinn Féin MPs for Northern Irish constituencies. Should someone CfD it? Snappy (talk) 11:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll let you ;-) Scolaire (talk) 11:40, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done, now at CFD. Another question, will the scope be inherited form its parent, and read: This category is for Sinn Féin members of the United Kingdom Parliament representing Northern Ireland constituencies from 1922 onwards. Snappy (talk) 12:24, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If the purpose is to separate the earlier group of MPs from the post-1982 ones then that move doesn't really work, since you'd have to include Arthur Griffith due to him being elected for North West Tyrone. There's also small potential confusion with the Northern Ireland parliament, whose members were also called MPs. "Sinn Féin MPs 1983-" would cover it better. Valenciano (talk) 13:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No need to delete the category, we can still use it as a parent. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Griffith would not be included as, like the parent category, the scope is post 1922. Griffith was elected in 1918. Snappy (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On further reflection, and considering all the above, I have decided that this category is not useful, and serves only to muddy the waters. I have voted to delete at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 August 8#Sinn Féin MPs. --Scolaire (talk) 08:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality/provenance

Why are Sinn Féin MPs being described as Irish on their pages but British here? And why is it assumed that they were all elected for Northern Ireland constituencies? Gob Lofa (talk) 15:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The problem lies with the target being called Category:British MPs by political party. If it was renamed to Category:Westminster Parliament MPs by political party then there would be no issue I think. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There would still be an issue with non-NI SF MPs. Gob Lofa (talk) 21:13, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Non-NI SF MPs are still members of the Westminster Parliament aren't they? Where's the problem? Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:02, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On this category all SF MPs have been categorised as representing NI constituencies. Gob Lofa (talk) 07:49, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All of them do represent NI constituencies. No SF MPs have been elected in England, Scotland or Wales. Those elected to the Dail are TDs not MPs, so I don't see the problem. Valenciano (talk) 07:59, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Scores were elected for seats in the rest of Ireland. They were both TDs and MPs. Gob Lofa (talk) 08:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All of which doesn't alter the fact that the people currently in this cat are in a sub-cat of "British MPs" when in fact they are Irish. This is yet another reason why the cat should be depopulated and deleted. Scolaire (talk) 08:44, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've deleted the NI category. Somebody should now proceed to rename Category:British MPs by political partyto Category:Westminster Parliament MPs by political party and the other problem will be solved. No need to depopulate then. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:46, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He he. You were removing the "British MPs" cat even as I was typing the above. Well, it doesn't alter my opinion. This is not a useful category. Scolaire (talk) 08:49, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Laurel, Members of the parliament of the United Kingdom by political party would be a better category name. A lot of people internationally won't know what the Westminster parliament is, any more than you probably know, without looking it up, what the sejm is. Valenciano (talk) 10:20, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Gob, I take your point. The solution then is to narrow the category scope and rename it. I don't see the value in linking people elected in 1918 and people elected from 1983 onwards. Valenciano (talk) 10:23, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough. What about Members of the British Parliament? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would work, together with a renaming of the British MPs by political party category. Valenciano (talk) 10:29, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Gob Lofa (talk) 10:47, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Scolaire - a useless category, depopulate and delete. Snappy (talk) 16:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated the parent for renaming per suggestion of @Valenciano: Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:35, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

rename proposal

@Gob Lofa:, @Scolaire:, @Valenciano:, @Snappy: Category:Members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom by political party has been successfully changed as advised above. I move that this category should now be renamed to Category:Sinn Féin members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. This can then be a container for sub-categories like Category:Sinn Féin members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom pre 1921 and Category:Sinn Féin members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom post 1921 if liked. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with all of your suggestions, Laurel. Valenciano (talk) 11:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Snappy (talk) 13:04, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Gob Lofa (talk) 08:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If @Gob Lofa:, @Scolaire:, @Valenciano:, @Snappy: are all in agreement, then why is this this not being voiced on the CFD page? Baffling. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:44, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The objections of the editors on CfD seem to be based on not having 'MPs' in the category name. If the rename fails, then why not create Category:Sinn Féin members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom pre 1921 and Category:Sinn Féin members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom post 1921 as sub-categories of Category:Sinn Féin MPs. Snappy (talk) 18:53, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I never said I agree. I've consistently said that this cat is not useful and should be deleted. I'm certainly not in agreement with creating new cats and sub-cats. Scolaire (talk) 21:31, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]