Talk:Škvorec Chateau

The articles essentially says that Savoia is another name for Skvorec (or vice versa) and the articles seem to be the same. I think this is the epitome of merger criterea. Jztinfinity (talk) 02:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

This article will be kept and the other made into a redirect.Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 09:19, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Castle name

The subject is commonly known as zámek Škvorec (i.e. Škvorec Castle) and this should be also the preferred pagename (cf. corresponding article on cs: wiki); the alias Savoia seems almost unheard of (presumably a kind of hotel promotion as the commercial stuff of the external lionk suggests). --Miaow Miaow (talk) 10:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 28 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

---

Škvorec Chateau → Savoia Castle – This property has changed it's name in 2009 when it has been completely restored by the new owner. It's current official name is Savoia Castle. This can be verified on the property's website: https://savoia.cz/en/ or a number of other websites: https://www.yelp.com/biz/savoia-castle-%C5%A1kvorec-2 or https://www.instagram.com/savoia.castle/ Aeremeev (talk) 22:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

• @Aeremeev: Do we accept this? Or do we stick to the name that it has had for centuries, being named after the town that it is in (Škvorec Castle / zámek Škvorec / Schloß Squorz / Schloß Schkworetz)? Its website https://www.savoia.cz/en/ seems to advertise it as a hotel; the new name looks like a tradename rather than its natural name. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Glad to see this was reverted In ictu oculi (talk) 15:39, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Article naming: Chateau vs Castle?

Isn't Škvorec Castle more appropriate naming on the English WP than Chateau? (WP:NCUE). Dl2000 (talk) 04:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

As one of the dispute parties (unfortunately!) I have to reply:

1. It is necessary to realize why this ridiculous controversy arose at all: it's because the editor who so stubbornly pushes renaming of the article into a self-invented title ("Savoia Castle") is at the same time the owner of the object and only (mis)uses Wikipedia – how can be seen from the history of his edits – as another promotional tool. Which is in direct contradiction with the rules and ethos of this encyclopedia! (WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:OWN, etc.)
2. As regards the use of the terms "castle" and "chateau": I have already explained to the opponent on my talk page how things are, but he refuses to take note and repeatedly writes into various discussions in an incensed and quarellsome manner, trying to find someone to help him against me (examples: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], to be continued... :))). Let me explain this pseudo-problem once again (a copy from my talk page): Of course, Czech term zámek (not the same meaning like Russian замок!) or its German equivalent schloß can be translated by two English words, "castle" or "chateau", which depends on architectural style of the building and the epoch in which it was founded/rebuilded. In this context, I would also like to point out that using of this word isn't limited to French-speaking setting! In Czech/Slovak area, something like e.g. this, this or this is usually understood as a "castle" (hrad) while this, this or this are some examples of the "chateaux" (zámek). When we consider when the building, the rest of which you own, was built (18th century), its architectural style (predominantly Baroque) and its size, location and finally, how was called both in Czech and German, it is clear to me that it is a chateau not a castle!

I am really sorry that I have been dragged into dispute about a thing / article so marginal (there are literally thousands of similar buildings in Czechia, many of them more important and larger ones – but their respective articles here are poorer and significantly smaller than this one or even still non-created), but I can hardly retreat on the principle issues; especially, when lingustic assertions of Mr. Eremeev, who has serious problems to write English properly, are false, which can be easily proved. --Iaroslavvs (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

@Iaroslavvs: Interesting is that materials created by Czech National Monument Institute (ISBN 978-80-87104-97-2) do not use the word chateau but use castle instead. Also another interesting thing is that use of "Škvorec Castle" is more frequent than "Škvorec Chateau (and "Škvorec Castle" is less frequent than the last name introduced by current owner "Savoia Castle", see [8]). I think this page should be renamed to 'Škvorec Castle'. --Martin Urbanec (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

1. Goggle test is irrelevant in this case – the "castle" variant is strongly influenced by current owner of the building and his avid self-propagating.
2. I'm not say that word "castle" is wrong; I just say that in case of translation of Czech term zámek it is less appropriate (yet, possible and often used) and more precise term is "chateau" – cf. examples in brochure named Castles and chateaux, officially published by national agency CzechTourism. There can't be any doubt that both terms are used as equivalents for Czech pair hrad vs. zámek – and it's obvious which is which, from architectural and historical (= era of founding) point of view. Interestingly, Škvorec is also called a "chateau" in the new promotional publication Majestic Accomodation (pp. 3, 22–23), issued by Central Bohemia Region.

Iaroslavvs (talk) 20:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

opinion of British native speaker added

Czech term zámek (not the same meaning like Russian замок!) or its German equivalent schloß can be translated by two English words, "castle" or "chateau", which depends on architectural style of the building and the epoch in which it was founded/rebuilded. In this context, I would also like to point out that using of this word isn't limited to French-speaking setting! In Czech/Slovak area, something like e.g. [http://www.cesky- raj.info/galerie/obrazky/imager.php?img=690659&x=1169&y=779&hash =c48e1012e2cae2619a315b8bbb14d114 this], [http://middleczech.kr- stredocesky.cz/wp-content/uploads/PAM_022_Hrad_Kokorin.jpg this] or [http://www.ck-rekrea.cz/katalogy- data/images/atrakce/1243/oravskyzamok.jpg this] is usually understood as a "castle" (hrad) while [http://www.mesto- albrechtice.cz/data/editor/186cs_1.jpg?gcm_date=1320912790 this], [http://www.svatba.cz/storage/svatba_CompanyModule-Photos/20001- 22000/21105-image-exterierzamekhlavni.jpg this] or [http://www.kravare.cz/_gallery/images/33225_zamek_2013_7.jpg this] are some examples of the "chateaux" (zámek). When we consider when the building, the rest of which you own, was built (18th century), its architectural style (predominantly Baroque) and its size, location and finally, how was called both in Czech and German, it is clear to me that it is a chateau not a castle! The person writing that is an ignoramus. ‘Chateau’ is not an English word, and never will be. It is a purely French word, and applies to at least two categories of buildings in France. Estate Agents and tourism journalists mis-apply the word, just as realtors in Beverly Hills California call a house with a garden of an acre or less ‘an estate’, and the meagre house thereon ‘a castle’, if it’s expensive enough. Like the majority of castles in the Czech lands, medieval buildings continued in use right up to Communism as homes, and many gothic castles were disguised with baroque details from the 17th century onwards – but Skvorec was a substantial fortress in the midde ages, boasting not only a moat and double drawbridges but also a round Keep Tower almost the size of that at Cesky Krumlov. The castle you are arguing about in Prague-East has only ever been known as ‘Zamek Skvorec’, as while it was a true fortified castle (a ‘Hrad’) once, it had been softened over the ages enough to be called a ‘Zamek’. Half of the Castle site was built over in the late 19th century to make a school, which the writer has mistakenly thought was baroque. He needs to brush up on his architectural styles, and/or look at the various studies of the buildings forming Skvorec Castle before pontificating more on this subject.

In English, Zamek translates as Castle, if it was a fortified house, and Country House if it was unfortified. Therefore, the fictional Dowton Abbey is a country house, although the location used was Highclere Castle – a romantic name given to the mid-19th century mansion, which had never been a real castle, to disguise its newness.

I am a specialist in castle history and restoration – working in Wales, England, France and the Czech Republic. I restored and lived in a 12th century castle for 30 years. Stephen Weeks, Prague 5-1-18 c@stles.org / z@mky.cz Dmitryeremeev (talk) 11:10, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

American native speaker opinion added

Dobrý den,

jako rodilý mluvčí angličtiny,, který žíje ve Střední Evropě 37 let dokonce už několík let v bezprostředné blízkosti škvoreckého zámku, nemůžu souhlasit s použitím nevhodného termínu château pro zámeček ve Škvorci.

Britové by použili slova castle, mansion, manor house či stately home pro takovou stavbu jaká je škorecký zámek.

Je třeba poznamenat následující: význam slova château v angličtině referuje k feudálnímu hradu či k pevnosti ve Francii, připadně k francouzskému stylu takové stavby anebo panství s vinohrady. Proto slovo château jako popis škvoreckého zámečku se naprosto nehodí v angličtině.

Slovo castle referuje k velké opevněné stavby anebo k obrovskému či impozantnímu domu, připadně k bezpečnému utočiště proti vniknutí či vpadu. Bezesporu škvorecký zámeček takové roli staletí hral.

Definice podle Oxford English Dictionary jsou naprosto jasné:

castle

· 1 A large building, typically of the medieval period, fortified against attack with thick walls, battlements, towers, and in many cases a moat.

‘Edinburgh Castle’

‘the crumbling stonework of a ruined castle’

More example sentences

Synonyms

1. 1.1 A magnificent and imposing old mansion.

in names ‘Castle Howard’

chateau

(also château)

NOUNPLURAL CHATEAUX, PLURAL CHATEAUS

· A large French country house or castle, often giving its name to wine made in its neighbourhood.

manor

British

· 1 A large country house with lands.

‘a Tudor manor house in the English countryside’

‘Kelmscott Manor’

mansion · 1 A large, impressive house.

stately home

British

· A large and impressive house that is occupied or was formerly occupied by an aristocratic family.

A zde jsou definice podle slovníku Merriam-Webster:

château

a feudal castle or fortress in France

a large country house : mansion

a French vineyard estate

castle

a large fortified building or set of buildings: a massive or imposing house

a retreat safe against intrusion or invasion

stately home

        : a large and impressive old home that has an interesting history and that can usually be visited by the public.

mansion

manor house : a large imposing residence

manor house

       : the house of the lord of a manor

Se srdečným pozdravem,

Jolyon Naegele Dmitryeremeev (talk) 11:12, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

opinion of NPU (Národní Památkový Ústav) official added

Dobrý den, konzultovala jsem problém s jazykově zdatnou kolegyní a odpověď je v souladu s tím, co říkáte, tedy castle:

V materiálech publikovaných na generálním ředitelství NPÚ se slovo 'chateau' nepoužívá (viz. Guidebook to Monuments in the care of the National Heritage Institute in the Czech Republic K. Kuča translation H. Landseer), může se vyskytnout v materiálech jednotlivých kastelánů:

označovat české (a rakouské, polské, německé) zámky jako 'chateau' je kunsthistoricky špatně neexistuje jeden univerzální překlad českého/německého slova zámek/schloss (používá se country house, manor house, palace, hunting lodge...) o každém zámku se musí udělat individuální rozhodnutí s ohledem na stavení vývoj a současnou podobu pro některé objekty je vhodné a bezbolestné používat výraz 'castle' i když se česky říká zámek - hlavně objekty, které měly opevněnou středověkou stavební fázi ; pro ostatní zámky je to složitější Říkat zámku Škvorec 'castle' je rozhodně v pořádku.

S pozdravem

Kateřina Hubertová Dmitryeremeev (talk) 12:19, 28 January 2018 (UTC)