Talk:17th SS Panzergrenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen

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Untitled

There is no town called Achensee! The Achensee is a lake! There is a town called Achenkirch near it!

80.109.134.50 21:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To Whom It May Concern:

If you are going to cite an article, The 14th Armored Division and the Liberation of Stalag VIIA, you should use the author's name. Also, I corrected some of the errors regrading the liberation. For example, the men of CCA were not "enraged." They were good, competent soldiers who had previously liberated other POW camps including the two at Hammelburg, and just went about doing their jobs, and fulfilling their mission. Finally, the 17th SS was not "destroyed" at Moosburg.

War Crimes Reference

Is anyone aware of which reference covers the suspected war crimes against the division by the American 42nd? Thakns in advance. NeoFreak 07:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added the first reference to the war crimes against the 17.SS - my reference was: Gordon Williamson, Stephen Andrew - The Waffen-SS (3) : 11. to 23. Divisions ISBN 1841765910. In the book though, it does not mention the unit, only that there was definately a massacre. Nothing 'alleged', or 'suspected'. War Crimes were definately committed. Although I would like to know which unit, and how the 42nd Infantry gets the blame. I would also like to know where the History Channel gets their information, I had never read about this massacare that the 17.SS have supposedly committed until I saw the 'D-Day: The Secret Massacre' special. IMO we need outside sourcing for that as well, I dont think the History Channel is opnipitant when it comes to facts. As it stands, most of the Waffen SS divisional articles are a mess, save for the LSSAH (1.SS) page. They all need cleanup, made NPOV, and better sources. user:Pzg Ratzinger

"there was definitely a massacre" -- no, the only definite thing is that both Williamson and Munoz assert that there was a massacre without providing any source documentation for their assertion. Even on this talk page, others claim that bodies supposedly found in this mass grave were actually found elsewhere. On the internet, the claim that a massacre occurred is repeated, again without any citation except the two authors mentioned above. If this assertion were ever to be better documented, it would be a notable addition to the article. As it is, it is best left alone. W. B. Wilson (talk) 16:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is also notable that a massacre of SS POWs by U.S. soldiers did take place on 29 April 1945 at Dachau during the liberation of the camp. Anyone looking for more information on this may wish to read M. Kenny's comments on this site as it appears Kenny, unlike many others, did his homework on this incident. Kenny notes there have been many assertions as to which SS unit the massacred men belonged to, among these units, the 17th SS Division -- but with no real proof to back the assertions. This incident may well be the ultimate source for the various assertions about the "mass grave" of 17th SS soldiers. W. B. Wilson (talk) 17:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've edited the War Crimes section:

The History Channel reference dates back to 2005, which doesn't really qualify as "recent" any more;
The comment about the division's history being that of a combat unit rather than einsatzgruppen is rather egregious, and smacks of apologetics. The division's record can stand on its own, especially if these allegations really are unproven. Besides which, saying that the division was better than an einsatzgruppe isn't really saying much.

-- Hongooi 16:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One is surprised that "war crimes" or allegations thereof (even benign ones) are only listed under German (or Axis) units, while you'd never read that under Allied units. Now what conclusion is that suggesting? Somehow it's not a mark of objectivity --105.0.3.92 (talk) 02:54, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image Upgrade?

Can we get the image upgraded to .svg or a larger .png? I'm terrible with image editing programs, but if it wouldn't be too much trouble it would be a lot of help for people who want it. JagerSS (talk) 17:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Massacre

Where it happened ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.8.246.12 (talk) 20:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made research by the German War Graves Commission(Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge) and the Grave from Hauptsturmführer Kukula was discovered in 1965, he and his Division CO Vinzenz Kaiser went MIA during the Battle at Nuremberg. Kukula grave is at the Military Cemetary in Haiger Grave No.75 There is no evidence that a massacre took place. --LeParas (talk) 20:25, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot to mention: The 17th SS panzergrenadier Division didnt surrender in Achensee or Achenkirch. The Divison surrendered to US Forces in the Bad Tölz-Lengries-Tegernsee Aera which is in Bavaria and not in Austria.--LeParas (talk) 20:45, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of section: American Massacre of 17th SS Panzer Grenadiers

This section was removed in its entirety because it was directly copied from copyrighted material -- Munoz, Antonio J. - Iron Fist: A Combat History of the 17. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Götz von Berlichingen". If this material is re-introduced to the article, it should be written without stealing copyrighted material. Please do not revert the copyrighted material back into the article. W. B. Wilson (talk) 06:49, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why was it named that way?

Why was it named after this mercenary/Goethe novella character? Any theories? Historian932 (talk) 04:53, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wondering

When looking into some bunkers on the Norwegian coast, me and some friends found a quote/poem on the wall which was somthing along the line of (paraphrasing and translating) "If it is too quiet, you could do as Götz von Berlingen and lick my arse", think that had anything to do this division? Hjerta92 (talk) 18:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doubtful as the division was never in Norway. The quote is (or was) well-known among Germans, though. Cheers, W. B. Wilson (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any idea of how that unit was equiped? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.55.167.50 (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Bulbasket

This unit was responsible for the execution of 33 members of SAS Operation Bulbasket near Bonneuil-Matours in July 1944. Was this not a war crime? --TraceyR (talk) 16:03, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead and add this to the article if you have source(s) for 17th SS involvement. W. B. Wilson (talk) 16:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

17th SS division was raised in 1941

I have heard that the 17th SS division was raised as a cadre (officers, NCO's and leading soldiers) in 1941 on the south central Russian front under direction of elements of the 3rd SS division. This article is inaccurate!101.162.145.20 (talk) 15:16, 7 June 2017 (UTC)intheknow.[reply]

If you have a source for this go ahead and edit the article then (and include the source[s]). Historian932 (talk) 01:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mark IV Tanks?

The article states that the division had 2 Mark IV tanks, and the link directs to a British WWI vehicle rather than the much more likely Panzer IV. Can someone else confirm that this is an error, or did they actually somehow acquire a couple of 30 year old tanks.

Role of French volunteers?

Has anyone ever run across material describing the role of French volunteers in massacres in France? Seems like an interesting phenomenon.Historian932 (talk) 01:18, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]