Talk:21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Sleeve Patch Image

Hello everyone, I have vectorized the sleeve patch of the SS Skanderbeg division based off this and this. Here is the vectorized version of the logo, cheers. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 16:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, but how do we know the epicarts patch is genuine and reflects what the actual patch worn by members of the division looked like? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:35, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello, as according to the description of the patch, it's an an unissued, near-mint example of the Waffen-SS Albanian Volunteer Sleeve Shield, as worn by members of the 21. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS “Skanderbeg", I would trust this site considering it has actual Nazi artifacts up for sale which are genuine and not reproduced, as according to the site's owner, most of these artifacts come from auction houses and personal collections. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 18:38, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

G’day. Why would we take the word of the business owner who has an interest in claiming them as genuine. What we need to find is one held by a museum, where the collection has been curated, or a book by an expert on German uniforms that shows the original and correct patch. Until either is located, no patch from some militaria shop is going to cut it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

By the way, as I understand it, this is the "national volunteer" sleeve patch worn only by the Albanians who were members of the unit. That was the case with other non-Germanic Waffen-SS divisions, where a Finnish "national" patch was worn by a Finn serving in Wiking for example. That doesn't make the Finnish patch the divisional patch for the Wiking division. So I'm not convinced that it makes sense to put this patch in the infobox, as not all members of the division would have worn it, only the Albanian ones. For Waffen-SS divisions, the collar flash is probably the best insignia, where it was used. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:18, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I should add that the collar flash designed for this division wasn't issued/worn, so that is a non-starter. We could use the SS runes. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:08, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

If someone from this talkpage would be able to find something from a museum then that would be perfect, unfortunately, from the research i've done on the patch there's nothing from museum's, just auctions. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 10:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, the patch can be seen in the book Foreign Legions Of The Third Reich Vol 3, P. 10-11. So I think its a good source for the patch. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 10:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Any chance you could photograph the page and email it to me? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:09, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Sure, whats your email? PrincLeka1914 (talk) 22:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Just send me an email via the link on my page, and I'll reply. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:04, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Just try that again if you've already sent it. Had a bit of a glitch with my email I wasn't aware of. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:10, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I can't find it on your page? PrincLeka1914 (talk) 11:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Somewhere there will be a link that says “Email this user”. Click on that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 12:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I still can't find it sorry. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 21:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Because you can't find a universal link on a Wiki page does not mean you can just add the image without discussion. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll post the link here:

https://archive.org/details/ForeignLegionsOfTheThirdReichVol3/page/n3/mode/2up PrincLeka1914 (talk) 19:41, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Also it wasn't me who made the edit? PrincLeka1914 (talk) 19:42, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

So?? @Peacemaker67 PrincLeka1914 (talk) 20:56, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

So, the vectorised image isn't quite a faithful representation of the patch shape in terms of the sides, and Littlejohn isn't in colour, but it'll do I suppose. I will incorporate it into the Insignia section as it is not the symbol of the division, it is an armshield worn by the Albanian members of the division, not by everyone. The only real symbol of the division as a whole is the formation tactical sign which is the black and white shield with the two-headed eagle, as shown in Littlejohn. That is already available and I will use that in the infobox, referenced to Littlejohn. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

The vehicle symbol we have (21st SS Division Logo.svg) actually has the black and white reversed from what is in Littlejohn. I'm going to ask someone to fix it, unless you can do it? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:42, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

We cannot consider the vehicle symbol as its real symbol, perhaps we could use it as a secondary symbol, it is better to use the sleeve patch as the division identified themselves by it, so we can call it a logo rather then a patch. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 18:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

That is not correct. Divisions were identified by their divisional vehicle tactical sign (painted on vehicles) as shown in Littlejohn. Keegan and others support this. The sleeve SS volunteer arm shields were for wearing by individual members of a unit to indicate their origins. For example, Danish members of the Wiking SS division wore a Danish arm shield, but that was not the divisional sign. The same applied to Heer formations with foreign volunteers. Only Albanian members of the division wore the arm shield, but many members of the division were not Albanian, they were German. The Albanian members of the battalion of the 13th SS division wore the same arm shield. There is no such thing as a “logo” when it comes to SS divisions. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

It is a symbol which identified them, I do not think there's any sources that SS Skanderbeg used that logo on their vehicles beside that book, if there were any images showing the logo on a vehicle I'd be totally fine using that logo instead of the sleeve patch. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 09:34, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

How do you know what sources exist? Both Littlejohn and Keegan say it was the divisional symbol. The arm shield was for the Albanians. Many of the formation personnel were not Albanian. We don’t need a photo of a divisional vehicle, we need reliable sources, and we have them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay what is this reliable source? PrincLeka1914 (talk) 20:47, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Keegan and Littlejohn, both of which are already used in the article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:00, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll vectorize the logo you put on the infobox. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 11:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

In addition to the vehicle sign I also added the alternative sign as shown in Littlejohn's book. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 11:48, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Why would we include an unconfirmed symbol? This isn’t a collection of trivia. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 13:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

As long as its in the book I think it should be added, just because of the fact that its "unconfirmed" doesn't mean it can't be added. PrincLeka1914 (talk) 13:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. It clearly states it is unconfirmed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:55, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Long time no see, Peacemaker. Am I to understand that this was the only Waffen SS division with a "negative" (black-on-white) color scheme as it's divisional symbol?
I mean..
To my mind it seems much more likely that ALL SS divisions used the "negative" of their symbol on vehicles. Attesting that isn't much use as regards the topic at hand. The SS uniform included the divisional patch on the right shoulder: it looked like this for the Skanderbegs. -- Director (talk) 06:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Well that may be what you think, but it is not how vehicle symbols are done or what Keegan shows. They are stencilled (still), and they are done as a positive image, ie the eagle is cut out of a stencil and paint applied where the cut out is, rather than the cut out eagle held against the hull and painted around it. It wouldn't stand out that way. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Peacemaker. Here is an actual pennant of the 21st SS: [1]. You're wrong on this one, I guarantee it - i.e. yes the vehicle symbol may well have been as Keegan describes it - but why use the vehicle symbol? Just look around the internet, you'll find publications, professional depictions of 21st's troops, and the actual divisional shoulder patches and pennants.

P.s. Yes, of course the vehicle symbols were stenciled...? In fact usually the divisional symbol had to be stenciled in white so as to be visible on a dunkelgelb, or especially feldgrau, background. What you ended up with was a white symbol on a dark (dark-gray or dark-yellow) background [2] [3]. -- Director (talk) 08:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Your sources are not reliable. All sorts of nonsense is produced by militaria shops and almost none of it is legitimate WWII German-manufactured stuff. We should use the vehicle symbol because the vehicle symbol is the symbol of the division. It is how the rest of the German armed forces recognised the division, and even how the enemy identified it, and that is why Keegan listed it (not the arm shields) to identify each division in his book. Not via pennants or arm shields. By the unit symbol. And that is entirely appropriate. As far as I am concerned, you do not have a reliable source for your contention, and in the absence of a consensus to change, you will need to use DR. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:56, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I should add that Littlejohn's Foreign Legions Of The Third Reich Vol 3, p. 10–11 agrees with Keegan. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Muslim divisions

how come, despite the fact you have an image of the Grand Mutfi of Jerusalem, you do nhoy point out the 21st, 25 and 13th Waffen SS divisions were all moslem divisions. The Grand Mufti told moslems to join and they did in droves. I have photos of the 25th praying, which shows them in moslems prayer, but my bad expereinces with wikipedia means i wouldn't waste my time offering them — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.137.136.30 (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Several things. The 25th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Hunyadi (1st Hungarian) was a Hungarian, not Muslim SS division. Perhaps you are thinking of the 23rd? With regards to the 13th, 21st and 23rd divisions, the fact that the rank-and-file were mostly Muslim is clearly explained in each of the articles, and although it hasn't been mentioned in the lead of this article to this point, it is mentioned in the lead of the other two. I've added it to the lead of this article, although I've also noted that several hundred Catholic Albanians were also members of the division. It isn't clear to me exactly what else could be done to make it clear they were predominantly recruited from Muslim people. I'm open to ideas of course. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)