Talk:AC power plugs and sockets/Archive 2

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Discussion of plugs & sockets not presently in use

This discussion section contains comments from the previous obsolete & unusual plugs & sockets article, the material from which has been consolidated into its own section of this present article.

Electric Clock connectors

The article mentions the clock connectors in British public buildings. I've seen this type of connector in some private homes as well (in fact, I used to live in a house that had one - the house was built in 1963, and had aluminium mains wiring!) but I don't know if they were commonplace. 217.155.20.163 17:25, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

can't say i ever remember seeing them in a house. Seen em a lot in public buildings though. Plugwash 18:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Our house had two! My grandma's house has one. I've seen them in other houses and public buildings, but I would think ones in houses would have been removed sooner. So I think they were fairly commonplace. --Ziltro 14:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

We are have recently moved into a house (built in the early 20th century I think) that has three or four of these sockets. The owner of the property said that there were more visible but where they have redecorated they have been hidden. FerdinandFrog 17:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Other British Mains Connectors

There was the Wylex mains connector - with a large round centre pin and two flat at the side. I think there were was one around about 3A and another 10A or more. The smaller one would fit into the larger one's socket but not vice versa.

The BBC used to use a lot of Dormond and Smith (D&S) in technical supplies but I don't know if these were ever used in homes. The Live pin was a fuse that unscrewed - very embarrassing if it came loose and stayed in the socket.

The company name is Dorman Smith and not Dormond and Smith Niknelb (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 09:26, 27 November 2008 (UTC).

In the 1970s my family lived in a flat that initially had these sockets throughout. As a child (11 to 18) I well remember unscrewing the fuse from a plug when it had blown. This was a council flat owned, IIRC, by the GLC but built by the LCC in the 1950s. I remember being told that these plugs were widely used by the council. FerdinandFrog 18:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The D&S type were used in a few public buildings built just after WW2 (presumably before the UK standardised on BS 1363), some surviving in use until at least the 1970s.

Also a Walsall Gauge version of the BS1363 connector with pins rotated through 90°.

I might have a D&S that I can photograph but don't think I have a Wylex. --jmb 22:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• It seems a pointless exercise to go to the trouble of editing in a metric scale into the picture of the D&S sockets and presumably scaling these to be correct when the D&S connector was designed in the days when imperial units were used so all the dimensions will be exact numbers of inches. The socket is exactly 2½ inches, isn't that better than estimating that it is about 6.35 cm? --jmb 18:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • hmm isn't 2½ inches exactly 6.35cm............ Plugwash 02:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
  • It's not pointless, it's ensuring Wikipedia (which is global) uses units with which the vast majority of its readers are familiar. If you want to see the original, I linked to it very clearly. However, you should find that the overlaid metric scale is accurate enough for the purpose intended. Brummig 14:15, 21st January 2007 (UTC)

Variants on the BS1363 (UK) standard plug:

There is also a 13 Amp plug with a specially-shaped earth pin, a T in section, that will not plug into a regular 13A socket. It is commonly used in supplied that are fed from an Uninterruptible Power Supply, so that those appliances, and no others, can be connected to the UPS.

A further variant seen is the 13 Amp plug with the earth pin being the round pin from the old 15 Amp plug, presumably to encourage non-compatibility with the other variants.

Had I digital photos of these...... 65.44.124.124 (talk) 12:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

These are Walsall Gauge connectors - should be a photograph of mine of a plug on the page. --jmb (talk) 12:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

WYLEX and FITALL connectors

I have found some old plugs and sockets which I have photographed. I was going to post on Wikipedia but trying to make sense of the various copyright clssifications which have changed since I previously posted pictures. Basically I want to retain ownership and copyright and don't want any of my pictures used without permission and also not altered. Is this possible on Wikipedia, if not then I will just delete the pictures and throw the connectors in the bin. --jmb (talk) 12:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Two different Wylex sockets 3KW

One Wylex plug 3KW

FITALL connector - this was a universal plug that could be configured to fit a 5A round pin, 15A round pin and 13A socket.

I also have some of these somewhere ... If I ever find them amongst all my clutter, I will photograph them and upload. Dbfirs 09:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If you took the pics then you own the copyright, and there's an option for that on the form when posting them. Posting them on wiki means they're licensed under GFDL, so they can be reused but only with quoting you as the copyright owner.

The form is pretty confusing I know. Maybe some sort of help with that could be useful, or perhaps another way to present it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.22.38.143 (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Old House Electrical Outlets

Just purchased a house built in 1919. We have 5 different configurations of outlets in the house, but two confuse me... Both of these are circular in shape with only one service in each outlet. To use the analogy of a face, if today's outlets take on the image of open eyes and the ground being a mouth, these confusing outlets look like one has both eyes closed (both horizontal slots) and the other looks like it is winking (one horizontal and one vertical). Both outlets are in the stairwell about 4' above each of the two landings. Were these used for stairwell lighting or something different? Signed, Too young to know! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.98.50 (talk) 19:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Could be 230 V outlets -your IP is in Minnesota. No ground pin on either of these? But why these would be in a stairwell is beyond me. Call a reliable electrician! --Wtshymanski 21:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

BC

BC sockets are still in common use, though their use for supplying appliances is obsolete. BC plugs are obsolete. BC plugs & sockets wre in common use for portable appliances until the 1970s in UK. Tabby (talk) 23:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

IEC 60906-1

I think the proposed common standard IEC 60906-1 should be displayed more prominently so I have added a heading for it. Biscuittin (talk) 14:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

UK "Wylex"-type plugs

I recall from more than forty years ago that old installations used a 16 amp "Wylex"-type socket with a large round centre-earth pin and smaller rectangular live and neutral almost in a straight line. Does anyone else remember these? Are they still used anywhere? Dbfirs 20:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I found a couple of Wylex sockets and a plug yesterday, I photographed and them to post on Wiki but I changed my mind when I saw how the copyright rules on uploads have changed. The line and neutral are slightly offset and I think there were at least two current ratings with the lower current ones being able to plug into the higher current rated socket but not vice versa. There was also a double plug which had a socket in the back of it so two items could be powered from one wall socket. --jmb (talk) 10:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think I was wrong on 16 amp. The Wylex were 13 amp and a lower rating of either 3 or 5 amp. Somewhere amongst piles of clutter, hidden in a box, I still have some, but finding them will be a much harder task than photographing! Dbfirs 09:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Article title / use of "Domestic"

A pointless, needless edit war (is there any other kind...?) has been going on over the following text:

In the United States, the word domestic is unfamiliar and meaningless. American power terminology does not refer to domestic power or domestic plugs, and make no distinction between home and industrial plug and socket types, as defined in this article. In high-density residences such as an apartment building, both single-phase and three-phase power may be present, and both types of power are also present in purely commercial and industrial environments, so the distinction of domestic power as being for home-use only is vague at best.

Not only is this the unsupported, undocumented, unencyclopædic and wholly POV assumption of one individual editor, it seems also unsupportable. The proponent of the block of text above seems to have assumed that because s/he hasn't encountered the terminology in question, and doesn't like it, that it is not in use. I'm a third-generation American myself, and my experience is opposite. That doesn't necessarily make me right, but it does make an additional reason the text in question isn't appropriate.

If there is some legitimate, supportable feeling that the title of this article is improperly exclusive to one or another English-speaking region, then by all means let's have a discussion here on the talk page and see if a more inclusive title can be devised, and/or any documentable terminology issues addressed appropriately and encyclopædically within the article text. But the edit war needs to end right here, right now. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 04:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I, too, don't really care for the article title since these plugs and sockets are used in commercial, instituitional, and industrial applications, too. A more descriptive title would be "Single-phase AC plugs and sockets" or something of that long-winded ilk. The Merriam Webster dictionary published in Springfield, Massachusetts, says that domestic is a perfectly usable word in American English, at least as spoken in Massachusetts. Oh, and you can't tell at the single-phase wall plug if your power distribution system behind the wall comes from a three phase or a single-phase transformer. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree that the title of this article is a little problematic. We have here a situation similar to the one over at Right- and left-hand traffic (formerly Traffic directionality, formerly Driving on the right or left): there are multiple nomenclature conventions with overlapping, ambiguous, and conflicting terminology. Consider "house current", a term commonly used in North America to refer to single-phase 117v @ 60Hz power wherever it is used, either as a general referent or a specific one to distinguish 117v @ 60Hz from other-voltage, other-phase count, other-frequency power.

That said, the title can't be too awfully bad, for this article earned featured status. So let's discuss the title and see if we can come up with a more suitable one, but it's probably not terribly urgent, so don't let's get too carried away.

The floor is open. Has anyone got ideas for a better title? —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to see the word "domestic" just simply removed from the article name, since these devices can be used in buildings and environments of any type.

I should mention that I am also responsible for changing the "Domestic AC adapter" section of power supply to just "AC adapter", and for demoting Washing Machine (album) from its old "Washing Machine" article name so it would not conflict with the appliance article on the basis of a single capitalized letter. As with these, I believe this article's name needs to be changed to improve the quality and searchability of the encyclopedia.

DMahalko (talk) 17:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not put something like "non-industrial" to keep everybody happy. --jmb (talk) 17:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

"non-industrial" would be a misnomer since these connectors are used for office, maintenance, and construction equipment in an industrial facility. Large three-phase equipment sometimes use low-voltage/amperage circuits right on the device, for lighting and other purposes, and it is common to find small-sized step-down transformers on a large three-phase device for just this purpose. All that can really be said is that the connectors in this article are universally used everywhere, while the other "industrial" article refers to special plug types that only appear in special high-amperage or two/three-phase applications. DMahalko (talk) 19:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's think this through. The idea of removing the word domestic from the title and referent text does have appeal. Will it cause problems for the structure of this article, or ambiguity with another existing article? Do we consolidate whatever other articles exist on non-domestic plugs and sockets and incorporate them into this article? Or do we give a short paragraph on plugs and sockets covered in other articles, and put a main-link to the other articles? I think the answer is probably "both". We should incorporate Unusual and obsolete plugs and sockets as a section in this article, and we should give short treatment and a main-link to Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets.

It's kind of a shame the concise UK term "mains" isn't used in North America; it would've made a nice, elegant title otherwise. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 20:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that this is already the main topic article and those others are subtopics split off from this page. A person searching for the unusual or industrial plugs will arrive at this article first and then branch off to there. DMahalko (talk) 20:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right (by implication) that it's best to hold off on discussing consolidation and main-linking until we settle the title question. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

How about Medium power AC plugs and sockets, with "medium" defined as the 1-2.5 KW range? --agr (talk) 20:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

H'mm. Whose definition of "medium power" is this? I haven't run into the terminology "medium power AC plug" and "medium power AC socket"...who uses it, and where? Whatever title changes we make do need to be supportable. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to find a compromise here. There doesn't seem to be a universally accepted term. "Domestic," as many have pointed out, is misleading, since commercial/industrial use is just as common. I think we can divide the world into low, medium and high power to keep the articles manageable, as long as we make our basis clear. --agr (talk) 21:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't support this proposal, because it amounts to prescriptive fabrication of an article title. Our job as encyclopædists is not to prescribe categorisation and nomenclature, but rather to describe the world as it is — including terminology and nomenclature. Your division into low, medium, and high power with explicit basis makes logical sense, and might be well suited to a technical manual, but Wikipedia is not a technical manual.

So far, in my opinion the best proposal has us simply removing the word "domestic" to arrive at the title AC power plugs and sockets. As long as we give brief treatment to industrial and multiphase plugs and sockets and insert Main article: Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets, I think this'll deal with the real and perceived problems caused by "domestic" without introducing new ones. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 22:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree we should use standard terminology where it is available, but where it isn't we must create descriptive titles as best we can. That said, I find your AC power plugs and sockets proposal quite reasonable and support it. --agr (talk) 22:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Trying to think logically... Why is there a split? Because the article would be too large without it and in reality there is, sort of, a split. I don't like the titles though. Can I suggest something along the lines of "Common" vs. "Heavy-Duty"? This article wants to almost be a list of different standards of plugs & sockets commonly in use around the world. What a tourist would like to know. Anything more than basic details of each type of connector should have its own page, like the NEMA, BS 1363 and BS 546 pages. Any similar plug/sockets could have a brief mention, but nothing more. (eg. Australian 15 A plug/sockets often used for air-conditioners) "Common AC electrical plugs and sockets"? Ziltro (talk) 01:28, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

"Common" and "Heavy-duty"" are subject to wide interpretation - common depends on where you sit, and Schuko plugs are quite as uncommon here in Transcona as NEMA 5-15 would be in Berlin. "Single-phase" and "three phase" would be world-wide; at least in North America 60 Amps is the largest you will find in a single-phase plug. --Wtshymanski (talk) 01:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I agree, "common" and "heavy-duty" would be less than suitable, not only because the category names are subjective and nebulous, but also because the word common has a specific meaning within the realm of AC power service. Single-phase and three phase are certainly justifiable from the technical standpoint, and for that reason I could support those terms if consensus developed in that direction, but the former might be more picayune than necessary. For the time being, I like AC power plugs and sockets for this article, and either multiphase AC power plugs and sockets or 3-phase AC power plugs and sockets for the other article. Let's see if we can wrap up this discussion, adjust the article names, and move on to more substantial improvements...any objections or further suggestions? —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 16:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The title AC power plugs and sockets is the cleanest solution. The technical differences regarding phases and so forth can be covered in the article text. Since I am one of the instigators of this change I don't feel I should just go ahead and do the article move myself. Better to have someone more neutral about this have the honors. (Go ahead, Scheinwerfermann.) :-) DMahalko (talk) 21:48, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Consummatum Est!

OK, I've made the move, tidied up the body text to match the new title, and fixed a whackload of double-redirects. I've also incorporated the unusual & obsolete plugs & sockets text & images into this present article (and the related discussions into this present talk page) and created the appropriate redirects. In a little while we can probably archive this present discussion. I would thank you for your confidence in my ability to make these changes, but I am busily donning my Nomex underwear in preparation for whatever flames may come my way from those who dislike the new title! —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 22:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Third common domestic voltage/frequency combination

The article reads:

There are two basic standards for voltage and frequency in the world. One is the North American standard of 110-120 volts at 60 Hz, which uses plugs A and B, and the other is the European standard of 220-240 volts at 50 Hz...

Perhaps some mention should be made at this point in the article of the fact that 208-240 volts at 60 Hz is also extremely common in North American residential wiring. The common use of the higher voltage range in North America is hinted at in the sections entitled "NEMA 6" and "NEMA 14", although it should be made clear that this is 60Hz, not 50Hz power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BenStrauss (talk • contribs) 14:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It is used to supply certain high power appliances in american homes (much like 400V three phase is in continental europe) but afaict it is not normally used as general purpose power.

Is it single phase or not? Roger (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

A NEMA 6 connector is definitely single-phase by definition, having only two conductors besides the safety ground conductor. It doesn't matter where those powered conductors are connected, the load only sees a single phase. A NEMA 14 connector is a bit more complex since it (by convention) includes a neutral wire, but the intent is still to connect a mostly single-phase 208V or 240V load across the two non-earthed conductors (with perhaps a small 120V load connected from one of the non-earthed conductors to the neutral conductor).

Atlant (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

...but the plugs often used (NEMA 6 and NEMA 14) are mentioned in the article, so I wouldn't think it completely beyond the scope of the article to mention it. As for whether it would be considered "general purpose" - no, probably not - but "basic" (and ubiquitous)- yes, I think so. You'd be hard-pressed to find a modern American home without at least one 208V-220V 60Hz outlet, be it for an electric dryer, stove, or window air conditioner.

Actually, it's quite possible for an American home to have no dryer, a gas stove, and no air conditioner (as mine does). Dryers also can use gas, and centralized air conditioning generally does not have any plug at all, and small window air conditioners can use ordinary 15A outlets. I'm not sure that electric ovens necessarily always have plugs, either. Also, 208V is typically only available where three phase power is available (a three phase system with 208V hot to hot has 120V hot to neutral), and American homes almost never have three phase power; the nominal voltage of a dryer outlet in a residential building is more like 220V-240V. JNW2 (talk) 02:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

merge of unusual and obsolete plugs and sockets.

I think this merge was a bad idea for two reasons.

1: this article was already pretty big. The unusual and obsolete plugs and sockets content made it even bigger and has the potential to grow to insane sizes. 2: this article was far higher quality than the unusual and obsolete plugs and sockets article.

any comments? -- Plugwash (talk) 17:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

In reviewing the conversation above, it seems my brain might've slipped a cog and assumed consensus prematurely. I didn't mean to presume. Let's discuss. I support the merger. Having an orphan/detached articles about whole categories of an article's topic is very nonstandard, just based on spot-checks of articles broadly similar to this one in type of subject matter. There are numerous very lengthy high-quality articles on Wikipedia, many of which are considerably longer than this present article; see e.g. Headlamp or Automotive lighting. There is no firm article size or length specification above which a split is called for. My opinion (per se) is that this article is nowhere near excessively long, nor is it in any real danger of becoming unwieldy or "insanely" long. I agree with you that the obsolete-plugs material wants bringing up to a higher standard. That seems to me very much more likely to happen quickly and satisfactorily with this info included in a highly-visible, oft-visited, single article covering the whole topic, rather than being exiled to an orphan/backwater article seldom visited.

With all of that said, I am certainly open to being convinced otherwise, or at least accepting the consensus if it doesn't go along with my position. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 19:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

One further comment on the length issue: if we do feel the article is growing difficult to navigate on account of length, there are easy ways of tidying-up the text without having to resort to separate articles. We can use "hidden" tabs, as for example in Chrysler LA engine — look for the green bars and try clicking one or two of them to see how they work. That way, the info all remains in one article, but those who want to look at this class of plugs & sockets or that class of plugs & sockets can easily do so with a single click, without having to navigate away from the context of the unitised, consolidated artcle. Just a thought. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 19:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The major problem of the unusual plugs section is the large sloppy image layout. I have shrunk the images and used a wikitable trick to merge them together into blocks of descriptions. The article flow now is very close to the appearance of the top part. DMahalko (talk) 09:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

New sub-article for outdoor sockets?

It would be interesting to have an article branch documenting outdoor socket technology around the world. As an American I am only aware of a few NEMA methods of moisture protection, including the simple spring-flap that only protects unused outlets. In the past few years a new method emerged which puts a large hinged clear plastic hood over the entire front of the outlet, with the cables entering through a flexible grommet in the bottom to limit moisture and insect entry.

Having grown up on a dairy farm, I have seen a special contaminant-resistant 220-volt 100-amp plug and socket on the silo unloader, which has a notch/groove around the socket and a fold-over silicone ring/flap on the plug, to keep debris from entering the gap between the two plugs.

How is this handled internationally? This sounds like a fun article to start. DMahalko (talk) 03:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I notice that there is only a single sentence about the silage silo unloader mechanism in the Silo article, I'm looking forward to see whatever you can add to it. Sorry I can't help you with information about specially sealed types of plugs & sockets. Roger (talk) 19:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

AC power plugs & sockets - Philippines

Power in the Philippines is 230 V single-phase 60 Hz, or triple-phase 460 V. 230 V outlets use the American A-type (two-prong flat) plug. Most buildings also have 110 V outlets available; these use the European C-type (two-prong round) plug. This is pretty unusual and often leads to burned-out appliances and electronic devices when they're brought in from the US. I don't know if this is worth mentioning on the page or where to work it in. Ashera (talk) 08:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Conformity across the EU?

This article does not mention the future of these diverse standards. I'm thinking in particular of the EU, where measurements, law, standards and much else has been brought into conformity in the past 40 years. Are there any plans to make it possible to charge your phone in Ireland and Italy, for instance, without the need of a special adapter? Which system is currently the most environmentally friendly? That would seem to be the one to go for then. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 16:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Two hots only?

The article says "Many plugs make no distinction between the live and neutral contacts, and in some cases they have two live contacts." Aren't there also some three phase plugs that have three live contacts? JNW2 (talk) 02:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

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