Talk:Alice Munro

Should short story be linked?

I think so, given how relevant it is to this subject and what MOS:UNDERLINK has to say about that. It was recently unlinked, though, reasoning it's a common term in WP:OVERLINK terms. Either of us might be right, so it's up to you, the uninvolved third party. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm OK with linking it in this instance, seeing as Munro is mentioned at that article. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 23:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Good to hear. Unless you plan to do it yourself, I think I'll wait a day or two to see if anyone else minds either way. I'm a bit "gunshy" this past year on anything even approaching an edit war (for better or worse). InedibleHulk (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Article involving Munro’s personal life

Article by one of Alice Munro’s daughters.

https://archive.is/2024.07.07-111321/https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/my-stepfather-sexually-abused-me-when-i-was-a-child-my-mother-alice-munro-chose/article_8415ba7c-3ae0-11ef-83f5-2369a808ea37.html VickiMeagher (talk) 17:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Someone else added this to the personal life section, and I've added it as a subheading, as I think it is significant enough to merit this. Wasn't sure about the subheading title though WZibell (talk) 07:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Alleged sexual abuse complicity

Resent additions.

On 7 July 2024, shortly after Munro's death, her youngest daughter, Andrea Skinner, revealed in an essay in the The Toronto Star that Fremlin had sexually abused her in 1976 when she was nine years old and that she told Munro about the incident in 1992, when Skinner was 25. In the essay, Skinner also disclosed that Fremlin repeatedly exposed himself to her, masturbated in front of her, and made sexually explicit statements to her until her adolescence. On returning to her father’s home after the abuse began in 1976, Skinner told her stepbrother and stepmother, the latter of whom told her father. Her father instructed them as well as Skinner's sisters not to tell Munro about the abuse, who they kept it a secret from for 16 years. After learning of the abuse from Skinner in 1992, Munro separated from Fremlin for a few months, but ultimately went back to him. According to Skinner, Munro said that she had been "told too late", while Munro's daughter Sheila said that "Alice wasn't able to sustain being alone and being apart from him. She told me that she couldn't live without him". According to retired detective Sam Lazerevich, when he appeared in 2004 to inform Fremlin of the allegations, Munro accused her daughter of lying and called her names. In 2005, Fremlin pleaded guilty to sexual assault and received a suspended sentence and probation. Moxy🍁 01:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

So let's talk about the huge attention paid to this topic in this bio. Clearly a contentious topic..... Personally thinking it's a bit big and detailed for a biography that is still covered under WP:BLPBALANCE. There's got to be a way to consolidate this information and for us to follow WP:ACHIEVE NPOV.Moxy🍁 01:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you; there is too much focus on this matter in the article; the section on her alleged complicity should be shortened. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 19:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

We have a suggestion below that isn't all that bad.... what do you think.... hoping we get more input from other editors. Moxy🍁 20:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me as well. Ymblanter (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

• I agree that we need to pare it down to a single paragraph and there's a fair amount of superfluous details but I disagree with the proposed edit. This extent of trimming — which includes the total whitewashing of Munro's complicity, that several RSes have seen fit to describe, pace whatever personal opinions random editors might choose to have (see next section) on the issue — is ridiculous. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

  I would discourage you from reverting edits which have been done after consensus was reached. You are welcome to participate in the discussion, make suggestions for improvements, and so on. But do not revert what others have agreed on. Pls revert your revert. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 06:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

  The proposed edit does not whitewash Munro's complicity. She was not complicit in the abuse. It was kept from her for more than a decade, at the time her child was repeatedly put at risk and she had no ability to act to protect her. That ability was taken from her by her ex-husband by keeping it a secret. That is not complicity. We don't know what she said to Andrea when she found out. That is hearsay. She made a decison a decade later to stay with her husband, a decision her adult daughter did not agree with. She had the right to make that decision. Wikipedia is not in the business of facilitating a personal vendetta or a witch hunt, or mommy shaming. While Andrea Skinner's story is heartbreaking, this page is not about her or her allegations, which are included in the personal essay that is referenced. RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 23:17, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  Again, assume good faith, please. The edits to this article can be both explained and challenged without claims of witch hunts and vendettas. Edits addressing the new information have come from a wide variety of editors, some of which have an extensive involvement with Wikipedia displaying a wide range of interests and concerns. You may be convinced that there are foul motives at play, but there is every likelihood that you are simply wrong. And again, despite whether or not it is true, such accusations are unnecessary. Please argue based on the substance of the edits and their sources. Thank you. _signed, Willondon (talk) 23:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: where is the "alleged complicity" in the subtitle? I'm not seeing it in anything which is written. Munro evidently didn't know about the abuse at the time. I think the subtitle should be restated somehow. Curiocurio (talk) 01:11, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, that section header is poorly named. An accurate header could be a good guide to how much content is relevant here. It certainly needs mentioned, but I suspect recentism is guiding how prominent it should be. My two cents. _signed, Willondon (talk) 01:19, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps "Sexual abuse of daughter" would be more factual. Curiocurio (talk) 01:24, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  I can imagine it without a separate section, but rather as a comprehensive paragraph informing about this fraction of her life. _signed, Willondon (talk) 01:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  That sounds like a good solution. Curiocurio (talk) 01:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  OK, I will go ahead with that suggestion. Let me know what you think. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is well done. Thank you.

  I still have concerns about the validity of accusations of complicity against her biographer, given the book was written decades after the abuse, he has the right to freedom of speech and it was ultimately Andrea's story to tell, not his. Including it in his book would have been preemptive and taken her story from her. There was also a publication ban in place at the time.

  Also, the reassessment of her legacy does not include any examples that affirm it. RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 13:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you.

  I understand and appreciate your comments.

  There are elements in this material that could suggest a campaign to malign Munro, not inform about her. It is very unbalanced.

  As we've discussed, much of the material is supercilious and put in place to craete a specific narrative that has nothing to do with Munro herself. The comments about Margaret Atwood, for example, have no bearing and are taken out of context.

  Reference: https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/books/how-margaret-atwood-and-the-literary-world-is-reacting-to-the-revelations-by-alice-munros/article_a8dc1ec6-3d30-11ef-8975-2f9a4ea4f124.html

  The allegations that her publisher and biographer were complicit by not including material that Andrea Skinner wanted them to 20 years after the abuse took place is in opposition to the creative freedom that is detrimental to authors and publishers and essential to a democratic society. They have a right to choose what they say.

  Reference: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art2b.html

  Andrea's allegations are included in her personal essay, that can be referenced in the article. They are hearsay and personal opinion, not proven fact.

  For example, there is an additional paragraph at the bottom of the Legacy section that insinuates a much harsher fall-out than we've seen since the allegations were made public:

  "Immediately after the news of the sexual abuse of Munro's daughter emerged, the bookstore Munro's Books issued a statement supporting the victim. Novelist Rebecca Makkai wrote, "the revelations don't just defile the artist, but the art itself". The news has caused a reassessment of Munro's legacy as an author."

  These two minor examples do not indicate a larger or more permanent reassessment of her legacy. This paragraph do not does not include any of the material that reaffirms her legacy, such as the following:

  1. Alice Munro Still Belongs on your Bookshelf, https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-alice-munro-still-belongs-on-your-bookshelf/

  2. Public Monument To Remain in Alice Munro Home Town, https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/public-monument-remain-alice-munro-hometown

  3. In defence of Alice Munro, https://nationalpost.com/opinion/in-defence-of-alice-munro

  4.Despite the Revelations, Alice Munro Still Deserves to be Read, https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/despite-the-revelations-about-alice-munro-her-work-still-deserves-to-be-read/article_8af1f8f4-44ab-11ef-9580-5f1eaa2a31f9.html RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 13:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  Complicity includes not only direct participation but also failing to prevent or stop the wrongdoing when capable. Munro's continued relationship with Gerry and her actions post-revelation can be interpreted as complicity by omission. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Sources

References

Alice is not a criminal, she did nothing wrong.

Alice Munro is not here to answer these allegations, particularly the one involved what Andrea Skinner says she said. She did nothing wrong or criminal, she made an unpopular choice that her adult daughter did not like. She was not complicit in the sexual abuse, she did not know about it. As for the comments by the police officer, he displays a bias to Munro in the article because she does not behave as he feels a "mother" should and talks about throwing her books away. This material does not belong in her biography, it is about her daughter and her displeasure wth her mother's choices.

As per all the references above. RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue is not simply about an unpopular choice but about failing to protect her daughter from a known abuser. The decision to stay with Gerry after being made aware of the abuse and minimising its impact on her daughter is ethically problematic, even if not criminal. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The abuse stopped when her daughter was 13. It had ended long before Munro knew about it. She was not complicit in the act of abuse, by legal definition. Using the word complicit improperly can be a way to damage reputation. We don't know that she minimized the impact. We only have her adult daughter's impression that she did. Munro is not here to speak for herself. Her decision was hers to make. We are not entitled to make ethical judgements on her character based on hearsay. RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 20:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The term "complicit" is used here to describe her failure to act decisively against the abuser, which is a significant aspect of the situation. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not the legal definition or proper use of complict. She had nothing to do with the act. Her adult daughter gave her an ultimatum 25 years after the abuse occurred. She made her choice. It is not our place to judge how she handled personal situations. She could not act against the abuses because she did not know about them until more than a decade afterward. The ability to act at the time of abuse was taken from her without her permission or knowledge. She may have been a conflicted wife and a flawed mother, but so we are all. RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Andrea informed her mother about the abuse when she was 25, not 25 years after the abuse occurred. Everyone has flaws, but the severity of the situation involving child sexual abuse warrants a higher level of scrutiny. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

She gave her mother the ultimatum when she was 36, 25 years after the abuse. Munro did nothing wrong. She made a decision Andrea didn't like. Her choices are none of our business. It's only getting a higher level of scrutiny because Alice is famous. Where's Andrea's outrage at her father, who controlled the situation and kept it secret for years. RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 00:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Andrea wrote to her mother about the abuse when she was 25 years old, not 36. After learning about the abuse, Munro initially left Gerry but then returned and stayed with him. Munro's fame does bring more attention to her actions, but the scrutiny is justified given the severity of the allegations and the documented evidence of her response to the abuse. The focus on Munro is due to her actions after she became aware of the abuse. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the recent condensation by Melchior2006 was well done and satisfies WP:PROPORTION. Curiocurio (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. _signed, Willondon (talk) 02:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest this: In 2005, Munro's second husband, Gerry Fremlin, pled guilty to sexually abusing her youngest daughter, Andrea, from the time she was nine until she was about 13.

References: 1. Andrea Skinner, (2024, "My Step-father Sexually Abused Me When I Was A Child...", Toronto Star, July 7, 2024 https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/my-stepfather-sexually-abused-me-when-i-was-a-child-my-mother-alice-munro-chose/article_8415ba7c-3ae0-11ef-83f5-2369a808ea37.html" /> — Preceding unsigned comment added by RATFINKGRAHAM (talk • contribs) 19:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

This suggestion sounds reasonable we're talking about this in a section above..... we are waiting for more input before changes are implemented. Moxy🍁 20:47, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thank you. RATFINKGRAHAM (talk) 21:13, 31 July 2024 (UTC)