Talk:Arba'in pilgrimage

Mawakibs

What is Mawakibs (meaning) and its distinction with hotel? Nannadeem (talk) 18:34, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Nannadeem: Mawakibs are temporary residing places which are typically small. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:14, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Mawakib also cook and serve food, drink, and general human necessities. They are essentially non-profit human necessity workshops for the pilgrims (if they need to eat, sleep, or use the restroom facilities for example). JasonMoore (talk) 07:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

what is Arbaeen

If you want to see an ideal society away from colors, races and languages. If you want to take a closer look at utopia. If you want to see humanity as pure as glass and a society based on peace, freedom and morality, you must know Arbaeen.

Page move

Hello User:Kwamikagami. Can you please elaborate on your page move? Thanks. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we had the pronunciation/transcription wrong. It's الأربعين, with an ayin, not الأربءين with a hamza. — kwami (talk) 12:28, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: I find this a rather inconsistent application of transliteration rules. The straight apostrophe can refer to either hamza or ayin, not just the hamza (WP:MOSAR). Besides, you ignore the unacademic representation of an elongating ya → Arbaʿīn. --HyperGaruda (talk) 07:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You're welcome to fix the vowel. But the 'straight' (i.e. ASCII) apostrophe is a punctuation mark, not a letter. It may be used for abbreviations, as when the /a/ drops out of al 'the', but not for a consonant, not unless we're being sloppy. It's also a problem to confound different consonants. You wouldn't use 'ja' to transcribe both я and джа in Russian.

We could also move the article to e.g. "Arbaeen" if the word is sufficiently naturalized. — kwami (talk) 07:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Still, I'd be cautious pushing single-handedly for ʽ (U+02BD), where major transliteration systems prescribe ʾ (U+02BE; ISO & DIN) or ʻ (U+02BB; ALA-LC). --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with HyperGaruda. This new title seems inconsistent to me and we use straight apostrophe for both hamza and ayin. I think the title should be moved back to the former one. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:33, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

OTD

Hi Howcheng, regarding your edit I was just thinking maybe it would be good to feature the pilgrimage page in the OTD section, too. Arba'een pilgrimage is an important event. Thanks. --Mhhossein ^talk 16:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Good timing! I second that. Albertatiran (talk) 16:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Yep, that's what I was doing when I added this year's dates. —howcheng {chat} 17:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. --Mhhossein ^talk 03:31, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Massive edit

Hi @Albertatiran. I see you have recently conducted a couple of edits among which there's a massive change to the article. While your interest for shaping the page into the best status is appreciated, making massive changes by only one edit may cause difficulties for following the history of edits. The inserted edit summary is too general making me ask you briefly your changes here please. Best. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Mhhossein, thanks for the comment. At a high level, the earlier version of the article violated WP:TONE (read like promotional content) and relied almost entirely on news websites (even for historical claims and opinions). Roughly speaking, the article was stitched together by many editors from many news articles. There were also way too many biased quotes sprinkled throughout the article. Now the article features a "Significance" section about the Battle of Karbala and its historical impact in Shia Islam, which was previously absent. The "Origins" section (previously "Background") is now reliably sourced and traces back the event to the early Islamic period. The section "Largest annual gathering" gives a reliably-sourced description of the pilgrimage, followed by a summary of what the previous version used to say about the number of participants over years. The sections about security and politics were summarized and then extended from new sources. The section "Around the world" is mostly about mock Arba'in walks elsewhere not the Arba'in walk itself. Perhaps there is room for a couple of sentences here to introduce these other walks but they don't have much to do with the topic of this article. So, most (all?) of this section was removed. Maybe some of it could be added to Arba'in... Hope this short summary answers your question. Albertatiran (talk) 09:32, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the response and the edits. I also think the page is improved now. The previous version had a sub-section on the 'free services' which I think would better be reflected here, too. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:37, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: Thanks for the feedback. I'll also restore (and probably summarize and edit) 'free services'. Albertatiran (talk) 08:38, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions

In the lead, the content "Arba'in can be an occasion for Sunni violence against Shia Muslims," as well as the content in the "'Security aspects'" section, could be adjusted to simply state, "Arba'in can be an occasion for violence against Shia Muslims," with an appropriate wikilink. While it is true that there has been violence by Sunnis, there has also been violence perpetrated by Salafis, Wahhabis, etc., making the specific mention of 'Sunni' unnecessary in this context. The 'Political dimension' section refers to more specific events, where the mention of 'Sunni' is understandable and appropriate. However, for the sections mentioned above, I think it may not be suitable. StarkReport (talk) 11:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@Albertatiran, I think you may have implemented the above suggestion in another Arba'in article.

There is one more thing: I think we should mention that some Sunnis as well as Christians, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, etc., also participate in the Arba'in pilgrimage, both as pilgrims and as those serving the devotees. It would highlight the pilgrimage's broader interfaith significance. I came across a few sources such as

@Albertatiran, @Mhhossein, what do you think of the above proposal? StarkReport (talk) 05:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport Good idea. A paragraph on the topic is probably WP:DUE. This is not a controversial topic, so the sources you listed will probably do but perhaps there are even better, more neutral or even academic sources out there too. Albertatiran (talk) 10:01, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

While the 'media blackout' as noted in the article did make the search for sources a bit of a wild goose chase, I did manage to find some other sources that address this topic: Huffington Post, The Milli Gazette, Kashmir Observer, and some supplementary sources that just touches upon "some people of other faiths from around the world" aspect, such as: Aljazeera and Eurasia Magazine

It seems we have a solid base of material to draw from in these sources. In the "Largest annual gathering" section, I propose adding a sub-section titled "Interfaith Participation" or perhaps as a section of its own. I have prepared a draft for this addition:

"As Hussein is regarded as a universal, borderless, and meta-religious symbol, the Arba'een pilgrimage, while rooted in Shia Islam, has evolved into a symbol of interfaith engagement. It increasingly attracts participants from various religious backgrounds, including many Sunnis, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, and others, to commemorate and mourn the sacrifice (or demise) of Husayn. Each year, millions of participants, including many Sunnis as well as people of other faiths, join the pilgrimage to Karbala, both to attend and to serve the devotees." StarkReport (talk) 10:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport I think it's perfect. My only suggestion is that you consider replacing "sacrifice of Husayn" with something more neutral, or maybe put that inside quotation marks of that expression appears in any of your sources. Thanks. Albertatiran (talk) 06:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps "death of Husayn", "legacy of Husayn" or, as mentioned above, "demise of Husayn." StarkReport (talk) 14:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport All of the above sound good. I'd vote for "death" or maybe even "commemorate and mourn the Battle of Karbala" as an alternative. Albertatiran (talk) 06:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

References