Talk:Battle of Hermannstadt

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Battle of Sibiu → Battle of Hermannstadt – the German name is more common in English sources:

Google Books results:

1442 Hunyadi Hermannstadt 361 hits

1442 Hunyadi Szeben 153 hits

1442 Hunyadi Sibiu 159

Hermannstadt was the center of the autonomous region of Königsboden, lived by German-speaking Transylvanian Saxons. Relisted. Favonian (talk) 10:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC). Carpathians (talk) 10:28, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

NOTE: The outcome of this discussion could be affected by Wikipedia:Canvassing (Vote-stacking). The Hungarian editor Norden1990 has posted notifications to other Hungarian editors (Borsoka, Fakirbakir & Koertefa, probably by the supposition that they would support the renaming) Carpathians (talk) 11:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

My nationality is secondary. I think the debate quickly becomes unbounded if only two people are involved. Anyway, you proposed the renaming of the artilce, did you? Like you argue against your own initiative... --Norden1990 (talk) 12:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support. the current title (Sibiu) is the worst solution. That town was part of the Kingdom of Hungary and was a centre of the Transylvanian Saxons. So, I support Szeben or Hermannstadt, but not Sibiu. --Norden1990 (talk) 20:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose In general English usage, "Battle of Sibiu" seems to be the most common. "Battle of Sibiu" and Hunyadi gets 3 times as many hits on Google as "Battle of Szeben" and Hunyadi.Brianyoumans (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

However the proposed new title is Hermannstadt (German name of the today's Sibiu). --Norden1990 (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Hermannstadt got even fewer google hits.Brianyoumans (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This is not true, see above. Anyway Nagyszeben (or Hermannstadt) was part of the Kingdom of Hungary until 1918. The current Romanian name is very anachronistic for the title of the battle. See Siege of Constantinople (1204) instead of Istanbul, Battle of Nicopolis instead of Nikopol. This town was not called "Sibiu" in 1442... --Norden1990 (talk) 00:51, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It is true. I was running my search on Google, not Google Books. "Battle of Hermannstadt" and Hunyadi gets a grand total of 40 hits. "Battle of Sibiu" and Hunyadi gets 7,690. The question is not what is anachronistic, the question is what an English speaker/reader would type in looking for the information. We are not here making some sort of nationalistic point about what "should" be the name of a battle that occurred in 1442, we are trying to mirror what is in popular usage in English. Brianyoumans (talk) 02:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Norden1990, please familiarize yourself with our rules: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources" (WP:UCN).

However, in those times the official language in the area was Latin, so, considering Norden1990 's logic, the Hungarian name is as "anachronistic" as the Romanian one. Carpathians (talk) 10:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't kidding... --Norden1990 (talk) 11:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support. The use of the suggested title is supported by reliable sources. Furthermore, I think this title represents the most neutral approach. Borsoka (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support. According to the Google Books results:

"Battle of Hermannstadt" has 177 hits [1]

"Battle of Sibiu" has 67 hits [2]

Fakirbakir (talk) 12:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Fakirbakir's Google Books results are not relevant, as most of the works refer to other events (e.g. World War I) Carpathians (talk) 13:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

So, then why did you propose a requested move if you think "Sibiu" is the best choice? Sorry but I don't understand your logic. --Norden1990 (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I have corrected the Google Books hits.

'Battle of Hermannstadt "1442"' has 188 hits [3]

'Battle of Sibiu "1442"' has 105 hits [4]

Although Google Books results are imprecise, however it demonstrates well that the name of "Hermannstadt" is more widely used in reference to this medieval period. Fakirbakir (talk) 13:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

@Norden1990 First of all, Fakirbakir arrived here after your illegitimate canvassing. Secondly, tighten your neuron(s) and read again what I said. I did not affirm anywhere that I support Battle of Sibiu Carpathians (talk) 13:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Please, stop this rude behavior. I didn't tell him how to vote. --Norden1990 (talk) 13:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I do not get it why you call it "illegitimate canvassing". He just asked for my opinion at my talk page (Cited: "Please, tell your opinion"). That is all. Fakirbakir (talk) 13:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

You are an experienced editor and you should know what vote-stacking means: posting messages to users selected based on their known opinions (which may be made known by a userbox, user category, or prior statement). All the three users contacted by Norden1990 have something in common: they are Hungarians. It is not the first time when Borsoka, Fakirbakir and Koertefa are asked for help by Norden1990 (they also supprted his opinion here after being notified by him [5] [6] [7]) Carpathians (talk) 13:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I see you are well qualified in wiki rules but there is no room for accusation. You have already emphasized this matter at the beginning of the discussion. Fakirbakir (talk) 14:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not understand the above debate. Yes, we all are Hungarians (at least, I assume it, I am not 100% sure), but we have had (and we will have) several debates among us (I refer to the talk page of the articles John Hunyadi, Kingdom of Hungary in the Middle Ages, Bálint Balassa, etc. In some cases, those debates were really sharp.). Therefore, none of us (including myself or Norden1990) can be sure that all of us would support his/her position in a debate. I think this "Hungarians vs Romanians vs All the word and the Little-green-people approach" should be forgotten when debating an issue. Please add relevant points instead. Borsoka (talk) 18:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Please don't try to excuse Norden1990. His canvassing is blatant. I am not able to find the disagreements you are talking about. Moreover, you affirmed once on another talk page The Hungarian form is Nagyszeben, and this is a Hungarian context, therefore the Hungarian name of the town is to be preferred in this specific case. This edit of yours is also an indication of your view, so Norden1990 had a clear idea about your virtual "vote" Carpathians (talk) 06:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Carpathian, I don't think you are helping your cause here. This may be accurate, but we are trying to assume good faith here.Brianyoumans (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I have missed your point. Do you suggest that Norden1990 was sure that I will accept his proposal of the use of the German name of the town (Hermannstadt) because I once proposed the use of the Hungarian name of the same town (Nagyszeben)? I think this is an over complicated approach. Please read again the Talk pages of the above cited articles, you can find debates on them. All the same, I still do not understand why you oppose the change of the name. Borsoka (talk) 11:16, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The wiki have few thousands strange name about the battles. For ex. the Battle of Grunwald at the same time was Battle of Grünwald. Doncsecz^talk 10:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

One is a redirect to the other. The article is at "Battle of Grunwald", probably because English users wouldn't use the umlaut.Brianyoumans (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I remember a moving for Grünwald, which was not redirect. The user was refers to the historical name that Grunwald/Grünwald was german region in 1410. Doncsecz^talk 14:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - per double number of GB hits, and also quality: Cambridge Illustrated Atlas, Warfare: The Middle Ages, 768-1487 1996 Page 139 "When Murad attacked Transylvania in 1438, Hunyadi allied with the king of Poland and the despot of Serbia to defeat him at Hermannstadt (modern Sibiu)." etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support For my is also sympathetic the Battle of Szeben, or Battle of Hermannstadt. Personally however supported the historical arguments (Sibiu in this time was the city in the Hungarian Kingdom, ergo is logical the name Battle of Szeben.) Doncsecz^talk 14:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support I support the move, as well, based on the historical situation of that time and the majority usage by English language sources. Of course, the alternative names (Battle of Sibiu and Battle of Szeben) should also remain in the lead and should be redirected to this article. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 16:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - per WP:UCN. 72 and 42 .--Staberinde (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

There are a number of historical errors in this article

The Battle of Hermannstadt is more properly referred to as the Battle of the Iron Gates, by which is meant the Iron Gates of Transylvania (which, per Wikipedia, is "a natural passage breaking between Țarcului and Poiana Ruscă Mountains and connecting Banat to Țara Hațegului." See the article on Tapae). The location of this battle, and by this I mean the second battle the article mentions, was nowhere near Hermannstadt, and this error is attributable to one sole source, Chalkokondyles. I wrote a rather lengthy article on the subject titled "The Ottoman-Hungarian Campaigns of 1442" and which appeared in vol. X of the Journal of Medieval Military History, 2012, pp. 133-172. Furthermore, the statement that Mezid Bey "was joined by Shehabbedin Beylerbey of Rumelia" is false. Mezid Bey fought an entirely different campaign which took place nearly six months after Mezid Bey's defeat and which was fought in Wallachia. Again, I refer to the article cited above. I recommend that this entire article be rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.199.217 (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:BOLD. :) --Norden1990 (talk) 00:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, most of us don't have access to this journal, so feel free to make changes to the article, with citations to your article.Brianyoumans (talk) 00:57, 27 March 2014 (UTC)