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Talk:Battle of Manila (1899)

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Duplicated photo?

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It looks like there are two identical photos with conflicting cutlines on this page one referring to U.S. battery in action at the Bridge of San Juan del Monte, 1899 while the other claims its Utah Battery in action on McCloud Hill. Perhaps someone could clarify or correct this issue?199.1.137.105 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC).[reply]

Can we get a clarification on this please? Caelestis Filius (talk) 12:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, the battery was located on on McCloud Hill and was firing on the Bridge of San Juan del Monte (see the description info at File:Utah_Battery_San_Juan_Bridge.jpeg). It should probably appear only once in the article, and with a better caption. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Made one change. Aguinaldo's Army of Liberation attacked the 3rd U.S. Artillery regiment. The 14th U.S. Infantry Regiment was also present at the battle.--67.100.207.90 14:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I request that one of the authors produce sources that state the Americans deliberately provoked the Manila battle?

That wouldn't be to hard to find. All well documented Phil-Am war sites and books have accepted this as the start of the war. Some do however have many misconceptions about this, and do state taht the Filipions attacked first, but this was only fed to the public to justify war between the to countries. Also, considering the casualties, some sites have confused 'casualties' as deaths, and have Filipino KIA as 3000 so don't edit it. 2000-3000 is the number of killed, wounded, or captured during the battle.

As the former anon who aked the question above, I still would like a documented source (probably a book) that shows the Americans provoked the battle. I haven't done a great deal of research into the matter yet, but the sources I do have seem to imply that either there was a misunderstanding or the Filipinos started the fight. CJK 23:25, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]



Quote from William Grayson, this is his account of the incident outside of Manila-the first shots of the Philippine American War.

About eight o’clock, Miller and I were cautiously pacing our district. We came to a fence and were trying to see what the Filipinos were up to. Suddenly, near at hand, on our left, there was a low but unmistakable Filipino outpost signal whistle. It was immediately answered by a similar whistle about twenty-five yards to the right. Then a red lantern flashed a signal from blockhouse number 7. We had never seen such a sign used before. In a moment, something rose up slowly in front of us. It was a Filipino. I yelled “Halt!” and made it pretty loud, for I was accustomed to challenging the officer of the guard in approved military style. I challenged him with another loud “halt!” Then he shouted “halto!” to me. Well, I thought the best thing to do was to shoot him. He dropped. If I didn’t kill him, I guess he died of fright. Two Filipinos sprang out of the gateway about 15 feet from us. I called “halt!” and Miller fired and dropped one. I saw that another was left. Well, I think I got my second Filipino that time....


Can we have some background to this battle. It is not well referenced. Thanks. --Dumbo1 01:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In response to whoever created a new version of this article, I would appreciate it if you would leave it alone. Your article to me seems just a tad bit biased. For instance, your claim that Aguinaldo tried to sue for peace, but at the same time issued a declaration of war against the Americans is false. In fact, Aguinaldo's message to Otis was that he did NOT wish war between the two countires, but that he and his army were ready to fight if the American forces continued showing aggression towards his forces. Otis took this as a declaration of war, there was never one issued before the actual fighting started.

"Some Filipino units, tense and expectant of launching all-out war on the Americans"

It was never in the strategy of Aguinaldo or anyother Filipino officers to start a war with Americans. The Filipinos did however expect something because of the treatment they were receiving from the American forces. Aguinaldo even had one of his emmisaries behind American lines when the fighting started! Does this sound like an action one would take before an attack?

"Being checked at all parts of the line, and the attack not part of the planned event, Aguinaldo attempted to call a truce the next day, but at the same time issued a previously prepared proclamation declaring war on the Americans"

This is farse as explained above. If anything the Americans were held in check.

Your version of this is farse. I'm changing it back to the way it was before. The correct version.

Official report

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2nd Lt. Burt Wheedon was in charge of Outpost #2 the night of February 4, 1899. His report of the incident appears in Annual Reports of the War Department for the Fiscal Year Ended June 30, 1899. This work is divided into Parts, which I find very confusing to cite, but I think the relevant citation to access his report is Part 4, pp 464.

Contrary to what now appears in this article, Wheedon reported that the confrontation involving Grayson took place in the barrio of Santol, near Blockhouse #7. Wheedon provides considerable detail, but some are different from Grayson's, whose account is provided in American Consul Edwin Wildman's Aguinaldo. Wildman appears to have interviewed Grayson or else copied someone else's interview (a common practice at the time). In addition to being American Consul in Manila, Wildman was a special correspondent for Leslie's Illustrated Weekly, and wrote several articles about the Philippines that appeared in that publication in early 1899. His book Aguinaldo was published in 1901 after he returned to the United States.

In reviewing the official battle reports of Wheedon and others it appears to me that the more these reports worked their way up the chain of command the more they crafted to make it appear that Filipinos had provoked the outbreak. My conclusion is that while conflict may have been inevitable, the actual outbreak on February 4 was unintended on both sides.

My interest in this subject? I'm writing a history of the 1st North Dakota Volunteers in the Philippines (my grandpa's regiment), and I'm trying to get it right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcdurand3391 (talk • contribs) 15:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have reformatted the above for readability.
I think it would be a good idea to add the account you have seen to the article, citing your source. If the source is viewable online, much the better. To the extent that the account which you have found differs from other accounts, the article should point out the differences.
As you say, the incident took place a long time ago, and accounts surviving to this day vary. The account currently present in the article is from this source. It purports to be a quote from an eyewitness, one Sergeant Charles Mabey of the Utah Artillery, and goes on to give further details not requoted in the article. The author of the book from which that snippet was quoted devoted an entire chapter to Mabey's account but, at least in the previewable info from the book which I have seen online, does not seem to give sourcing details for the info.
Re your conclusion, that is my impression as well. For a bit of a one-sided overview of the forest from one of the woodsmen involved rather than a close examination of individual trees, read Worcester, Dean Conant (1914), "IV. The Premeditated Insurgent Attack", The Philippines: Past and Present (vol. 1 of 2), Macmillan, pp. 75–89, ISBN 141917715X, retrieved 2008-02-07. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A pretty good blog article that quotes a few sources is this: What Really Happened in February 4, 1899. The most recent scholarship that seems of significant pertinence and that I have seen a couple of commentators say as advancing understanding of the subject would probably be the one by Benito Legarda. The Hills of Sampaloc: the Opening Actions of the Philippine-American War, February 4-5, 1899. ISBN 9789715694186. Legarda was mentioned in the article but his book wasn't. It should probably be consulted to raise the quality of this article. Its absence as a source leaves a gap. Lambanog (talk) 03:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That web page cited above looks to me like a self-published source, though that page and others on that site do seem well researched and are presented well. Reading What Really Happened in February 4, 1899 there, I see that it quotes an account by one Felipe Buencamio which says, in part: "... At this time a shot was heard; that he could not say for certain whether the shot came from the American command or from the men under his command, but he ran to the place from which the shot appeared to come, and seeing the American troops in a belligerent attitude gave an order to fire. That is the way the hostilities began." (emphasis added). A little googling turned up this, this, this, etc. The text in that blogspot source seems to synthesize Grason and Buencamio statements to conclude, "... Grayson’s statement contradicted the textbook version and confirmed that the American soldiers indeed crossed into Filipino lines (from Buencamino) and fired the first shots (from Grayson), resulting in an exchange of fire."—presuming, apparently, that Grayson was one of the soldiers of whom Buencamio speaks and that the shot about which Buencamino wrote (apparently fired at the corner of Sociego and Silencio Streets, to where the NHI moved the historical marker) must have been the one Grayson spoke of having fired at the San Juan Del Monte bridge crossing. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well a significant implication of course is that Grayson's statement is a fabrication and from what I have read elsewhere it has been suggested that he wasn't even where he said he was. Anyway here's the bibliography section of that blog site. Sources not appearing on related articles here should be considered for research and inclusion. By the way here is a statement by Aguinaldo on the outbreak of hostilities: Chapter XIX. "Outbreak of Hostilities" from True Version of the Philippine Revolution by Don Emilio Aguinaldo y Famy. Lambanog (talk) 04:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting Note 1 from the article, "Differing alternative descriptions do exist. [...]".

I've just bought a couple of books which argue persuasively that Grayson did fire the first shots, though not exactly as his much-repeated account details it, and not at the often-mentioned San Juan Bridge location. The books give lots of details and cite lots of good supporting sources, with key points supported by quotes from the cited sources. The books are:

Those books, particularly the second one, give info about the situation surrounding and leading up to the actual opening shots and about the aftermath -- both immediate and longer-term. I'm not in a situation at the moment conducive to my incorporating info from these sources into the article; I'll probably get around to that at some point, but I'm mentioning this here in case someone else wants to do the first cut at that. I'm still reading these books while traveling away from home, and have also picked up a number of other books I'd like to read. It'll probably be a week or more before I get back up to speed wiki-wise, and once that happens I may focus elsewhere for a while before getting back to this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 10:44, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MacArthur and Otis

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I have removed the following assertion here from the article:

Also, for officers like MacArthur with 30 years of slow advancement in the peacetime army, combat was the surest route to further promotion.

MacArtuhur

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At the outbreak of the Civil War, Arthur MacArthur was living in Wisconsin and immediately joined the 24th Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry, seeing action at Chickamauga, Stones River, Chattanooga, the Atlanta Campaign and Franklin. For his Civil War exploits he earned the Medal of Honor for his performance at Missionary Ridge and was brevetted colonel in the Army at the age of 19. His soldiers loved him so much that he became nationally recognized as "The Boy Colonel". MacArthur was recommended for the Medal of Honor for electrifying his regiment at Missionary Ridge during the Battle of Chattanooga in 1863, with the cry "On Wisconsin." He was awarded the Medal in 1890 for that service.

MacArthur left the Army in June 1865 and began the study of law, but it was not for him and he returned to his first love, the Army, on February 23, 1866, receiving a commission as a Second Lieutenant in the Regular Army's U.S. 17th Infantry Regiment, with a promotion the following day to First Lieutenant. He was promoted in September of that year to Captain, due to his Civil War record; however he would remain a Captain for the following two decades, as promotion was slow in the small peacetime army.

In 1884, MacArthur became the post commander of Fort Selden. In 1885, he took part in the campaign against Geronimo. In 1889, he was promoted to Assistant Adjutant General of the Army with the rank of major, and was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in 1897. During the first part of the Spanish American War, MacArthur was serving as the adjutant general of the III Corps in Georgia. In June, 1898 he was promoted to a temporary Brigadier General in the volunteer army and commanded the Third Philippine Expedition. When he arrived in the Philippines he took command of the 1st Brigade, 2nd Division, VIII Corps and led it at the Battle of Manila (1898).

Otis

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Elwell Otis fought in many of the battles of the Army of the Potomac including Fredericksburg and Gettysburg. During the Siege of Petersburg, he was in command of a brigade in V Corps leading it into action at the battle of Peebles' Farm. A wound during the siege effectively ended his field career during the Civil War but he was promoted to brevet brigadier general of volunteers. He continued serving in the army during the Indian Wars as lieutenant colonel of the 22nd Infantry, including campaigning in Montana in the aftermath of the Battle of the Little Bighorn. In 1893, he was appointed brigadier general in the regular army. In May 1898, he was appointed major general of volunteers and was sent to the Philippines with reinforcements for General Wesley Merritt. When he arrived, he assumed command of the VIII Corps, replacing Merritt who had become the military governor of the Philippines. When Merritt left, Otis was appointed Military Governor.

Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 06:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

POV Bias

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Too much attention is given to the eyewitness account of Private William Grayson of B Company, which although interesting, is not comprehensive or inclusive. Similarly, although Aguinaldo's objectives are interpolated and discussed, his point of view isn't entertained. As his role was surely as significant as Private William Grayson's, it's fair to suggest the article could be improved by reducing bias and including other significant points of view, for example Aguinaldo's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shirley Locks (talk • contribs) 03:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Balancing Grayson (a soldier of low rank) against Aguinaldo (President of the insurgent government) seems a bit skewed.
WP:UNDUE says, in part: Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace
  • fairly represents all significant viewpoints
  • that have been published by reliable sources,
  • in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint,
  • giving them "due weight".
Re Grayson, the two requirements in the middle there would seem to have presented some difficulty until very recently. The #Official report section above mentions an alternative account from a revolutionary source which speaks about the first shot from a different perspective. One apparent difficulty with that is that the only reference to that which has so far been verified appears to be from a self-published source. I provided some info about dead-tree sources which look like WP:RS sources in that section above (I, for one, have no reasonable access to those, but other differently-situated WP editors might).
Re Aguinaldo, see this, where he wrote: "... American forces suddenly attacked all our lines, which were in fact at the time almost deserted, ...", and wherein he also made a number of unsubstantiated accusations re the conduct of American forces prior to the first shot (shooting in secret many who declined to sign a petition asking for autonomy, ruffianly abuses committed on innocent and defenseless people in Manila, shooting women and children simply because they were leaning out of windows, entering houses at midnight without the occupants’ permission, forcing open trunks and wardrobes and stealing money, jewelery and all valuables, breaking chairs, tables and mirrors which they could not carry away, etc.). This probably should be added to the article in some form; however, for one perspective on Aguinaldo, trustworthiness, and deceit, see this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(added) Also see this somewhat related past edit. I see here that the intersection of Silencio and Sociego streets is about half a kilometer from the San Juan bridge. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also see the material I've just added to the #Official report section above. I probably should have put it here, but saw it as a fit there before this caught my eye as an alternative placement location. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 10:53, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Background section redone.

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Following on the POV Bias and Official records sections above, I've redone the Background section of the article, replacing it with two sections, currently headed First shots and Reactions of Aguinaldo and Otis. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:54, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anons changing article assertions re Reactions of Aguinaldo and Otis, contradicting supporting sources.

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I've recently reverted two edits from separate IP addresses making the same change to the Reactions of Aguinaldo and Otis section of the article ([1], [2]). The change contradicts supporting sources (I'm not currently able to check the dead-tree source cited in the article, but see the sources mentioned here). I don't know if this is different anons making the same edit or the same anon making the edit from different (probably dynamically assigned) IP addresses. Anyhow, I left messages on both IP talk pages, and thought that I would mention it here. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Intitial Filipino investigations about the first shot of the war

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According to Teodoro Agoncillo's Malolos: The Crisis of the Republic, Aguinaldo, immediately after the battle, ordered an investigation on whose side the first shot came from. Most interrogations were of Filipino commanders as well though, mainly because the Americans claim that they only reacted to Filipino violation of territory at Balsahan Bridge. It was clear in the book that the first shot did come from the American side even if there was no violation of territory. It was the Americans who cross the Filipino zone often. Also, the investigation showed American maneuvers in preparation for offensive as early as February 2, 1899, two days before the first shot. I think that such details weren't in this article yet. Arius1998 (talk) 05:08, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Detail in characterization of place parameter in infobox

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Please see the discussion here. Sorry about the soft redirect -- as this involves multiple articles I thought that the discussion would be better located there. As I write this, I have not done the re-edits mentioned in that discussion -- I plan to get on with that later this morning (Philippines time). Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:10, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"At the beginning of the war allies against Spain in all but name; now Spanish and Americans were in a partnership that excluded the Filipino insurgents." Please clarify and punctuate this sentence correctly. Do you mean to say: "Although the Americans and Filipinos were de facto allies at the beginning of the Spanish-American War, at the end of that war the USA and Spain formed a partnership hostile to the Finipino revolutionaries"??? (EnochBethany (talk) 18:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC))[reply]

Where did that sentence come from? What was its context? I haven't been able to locate it.
My take is:
  • The Americans and Filipinos were de facto allies in the early stages of the Spanish-American War after Aguinaldo's return to Manila.
  • At the time of the Battle of Manila (1898) (not the 1899 battle which is the topic of this article), American and Spanish commanders had made an informal arrangement intended to exclude the Filipino revolutionaries from participation in the capture of Manila from Spain by US forces and from the surrender of the city by the Spanish commanders to the American commanders. Subsequent to that 1898 battle, the American and Filipino commanders were still nominally allies, but the relationship was an uneasy one punctuated by incidents of conflict.
  • One such incident touched off the battle which is the topic of this article. The battle and subsequent fighting between American and Filipino forces escalated into the Philippine-American War (and see the Nomenclature section of the article about that conflict).
Also, I see that the discussion I linked above has now been archived here. It appears that I made this edit to this article following on that discussion. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:34, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of William W. Grayson into Battle of Manila (1899)#First shots

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seems a WP:BIO1E, no indication he did much besides shoot somebody once. Eddie891 Talk Work 22:55, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support He doesn't seem notable on his own for a separate article, and that article has all the main details. Reywas92Talk 01:45, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  checkY Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 11:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grade of General Anderson

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I changed his grade at one point from BG to MG,[3] then self-reverted that [4] but added a cite (I don't see him mentioned in that other cited source). Per that added cite, he deployed to the Philippines as a "Major General of Volunteers", but he apparently had the Regular Army grade of Brigadier General (and is referred to as such at one other point in this article). I'm just noting this here in case there are questions or further edits re this are needed.

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