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Good articleCaffo has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 26, 2011Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on February 9, 2011.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that St Caffo's Church, Llangaffo, Wales, commemorates St Caffo who was martyred in the area in the 6th century?

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Caffo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:14, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will conduct this review in a few steps.
Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. See below Addressed
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. Complies with all major MOS guidelines
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. See below Addressed
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). See below Addressed
2c. it contains no original research. Looks sourced completely.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. See below Seems good.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). See below Addressed
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. Seems fine
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Stable.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. None
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. see below Addressed
7. Overall assessment. Coverage may be lacking Good to go!
  • 1a: Tense agreement in some places seems out of sync. For example, "He returns to Cybi carrying a red-hot coal in his clothes, without his clothes getting burnt" - This should almost definitely be past tense, as Caffo has been dead for hundreds of years.
  • 1a: Flow seems confusing. Perhaps it is because of all the maybes and probablies, or it could be from combining ideas that should probably be separate paragraphs, such as in the second paragraph of the article.
    • I've tried to reorder some of the information - how is it now? BencherliteTalk
  • 2a: You have two books that may be better to put in the bibliography section.
    • I generally only put books in a bibliography section if they are used for multiple page references; one-off books I keep in the reference section. See e.g. references 39, 42, 69, 75, 80, 81, 82, 109, 135 etc of Buildings of Jesus College, Oxford (an FA for which I am largely responsible). I don't see the point of making readers look in two places for the reference details unless it's necessary. BencherliteTalk
  • 2b: What makes Google Maps a reliable source?
    • Who's citing Google Maps? The farm doesn't appear on it. I'm using the template to link to a variety of map sources, including the Ordnance Survey (which is unquestionably reliable). My understanding was that that template was used rather than a link to a particular mapping website so that people had the choice of formats. BencherliteTalk
  • 3a: This is what makes me feel that this article is not ready for GA. I understand that little is known about his life, but I have read the article twice and still don't see it as more than saying

    "Caffo was a sixth-century Christian, son of a nobleman, who is said to have carried a coal in his clothes without injury and was killed by shepherds, possibly for an insult his brother made; he has been venerated as a saint and martyr, as well as had numerous places named after him."

Why is he considered a martyr? Was his Christianity a factor in his murder? When was he sainted? Stuff like this is fairly important.
    • You're entirely right, the article boils down to not much more than you've said (in fact, I'd quibble with "numerous" - a village, a church and a well...). However, this is basically all that is known about him - as far as I can see, the first written records of his life - where he appears as an "extra" in the life of the much more important St Cybi - aren't until c.1200, several hundred years after he lived. Unsurprisingly, detail is lacking. He's a very minor saint in a small corner of Anglesey.
    • If the sources explicitly said that his Christianity was a factor in his death, I would say so. The obvious implication is that it was, otherwise he wouldn't have been regarded as a martyr, but I'm not going to add "he was killed because he was a Christian" if the sources don't explicitly back that up, or you'll rightly tell me off for original research. He wasn't sainted by a pope as would happen nowadays, but that wasn't how the Welsh church operated - I've added a note about that, and that is a good point. Otherwise, I don't think that I can take this any further. BencherliteTalk
  • 3b: In a article that is shorter than 3000 characters, I would expect less to be about other people. Take the blurb "(although the number of Caw's children varies from 10 to 21 between different manuscripts)". This could be rewritten to focus on Caffo, perhaps like this: "Caffo is thought to have had 10 to 21 siblings, including... (saints names)" That would keep the focus on Caffo.
    • Rewritten that phrase. Some explanatory context of the people with whom he is associated is necessary, or the reader will wonder who on earth this Cybi chap is. If you can see any other phrases that could be trimmed or removed, let me know and I'll see what I think. BencherliteTalk
  • 6b: Could at least one image be found, perhaps of the church?
    • GA status does not require that an article have any images. As there are no images of Caffo, I've added one of the church purely to keep you happy; I don't actually think one is necessary when there is a full article on the church complete with images. BencherliteTalk
Please improve this as best as you can. Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking this one for review, and I think that our discussion and changes have improved the article. How's it looking now? Just a word of warning that I may not be able to respond now until Tuesday, as it's a holiday weekend here in the UK and I have family duties as ever... BencherliteTalk 10:32, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion on criterion 3a

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This article is about a subject for which few reliable sources exist, and about which little can be reliably said. It's not a slight enough subject to be nominated for deletion or merged into a list, but it's also not ever going to have a respectably-sized article either. This situation comes up quite a lot: minor historical figures, stars invisible to the naked eye, etc.

Usually when such articles are nominate for FA, they are rejected for not having enough sources to support a featured article. But GA standards are more lax. When I review GA noms where the 3a criterion is questionable, I look (Google and online library search) to see if there are more sources available that could give more info. If so, I say it doesn't qualify... but if not, I usually let it slide. (See HD 154672 b, for instance, which is a short article that contains all available information on the topic.)

In this case, there might be more information available, but I can't find any. This source gives more detail, but is clearly not reliable. Project Gutenberg has nothing. I'm pretty confident that I couldn't write a more full article on the topic without sacrificing reliability, so I'd pass it, personally. But different GA reviewers apply different standards, and this is an edge case. All the best, – Quadell (talk) 12:45, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was leaning towards a pass myself, but I wasn't nearly sure what the standards are at GA. Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]