Talk:Chief of Defence Staff (India)

This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

A fact from Chief of Defence Staff (India) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 6 September 2019 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that India is creating the post of Chief of the Defence Staff twenty years after it was officially suggested?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2019/September. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Chief of the Defence Staff (India).

Wikipedia

A news item involving Chief of Defence Staff (India) was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 8 December 2021.

Wikipedia

Military history: National / Asian / Indian / South Asia Start‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Start

This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

Associated task forces:
/
	National militaries task force
	Asian military history task force
	Indian military history task force
	South Asian military history task force

India: History Top‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (assessed as Top-importance).

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:

December 5 to 11, 2021

Requested move 15 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close, it appears nothing more is needed here. (non-admin closure) – Ammarpad (talk) 14:41, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Chief of Defence Staff (India) → Chief of the Defence Staff (India) – naming convention should be followed similar to other articles with same title Hemant Dabral^Talk 13:40, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:00, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Hemant Dabral: Many countries have a chief of defence staff or similar. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:00, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Anthony Appleyard, yep, the request might be alluding my comment at WT:WikiProject Military history/Indian military history task force#Chief of Defence Staff (India); I will move the page to Chief of the Defence Staff (India), on the lines of Chief of the Army Staff (India), Chief of the Air Staff (India), and Chief of the Naval Staff (India). That should be it for now. Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 22:41, 15 August 2019 (UTC); edited 22:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC).[reply]

SshibumXZ, yes, I had noticed the difference between what newspapers were currently using "Chief of Defence Staff" as compared to the naming convention on related articles on Wikipedia, "Chief of the Defence Staff" when I created both pages. I guess for now the shift makes sense. But if the official title in India is without the word "the" then we will have to see what is to be done. For now I guess it's ok.DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 02:22, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for acting on the requested title change. I forgot to add "(India)" on the title to avoid disambiguation with other pages of similar titles. You can take off the title change notification from the article now.

Hemant Dabral^Talk 07:34, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the title change template but the bot added it back? I guess we have to close things here first... DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 05:59, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Anthony Appleyard: Can this be closed for now? As more information about the official position is revealed in the coming months it will be easier to make a decision. That template doesnt need to stay does it? DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 12:01, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Regarding VCDS name

There is a bit confusion about the name of vice chief of defence staff. Whether it is c Hari kumar(air marshal) or Hari kumar (vice admiral) Mahusha (talk) 12:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mahusha, This source says "Vice Admiral C Hari Kumar" [1] Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBig Xrayᗙ 13:12, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@DBigXray: Vice Admiral R. Hari Kumar has already taken over as Chief of Integrated Defence Staff, earlier this month. It's definitely him. Air Marshal Chandrashekharan Hari Kumar superannuated in February 2019. —Sarvatra (talk, contribs) 03:33, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But it was given vice admiral r Hari kumar Mahusha (talk) 13:59, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Better we confirm first Mahusha (talk) 14:00, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Current lead makes no sense

"Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS) is a professional head of the Indian Armed Forces and the senior-most uniformed adviser to the Indian government, supported by the tri-service chief of the Indian Army, Indian Navy and Indian Air Force, with the first CDS being General Bipin Rawat."

This line is framed terribly. This article needs a better lead. DTM (talk) 05:09, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even though I have made changes, I request someone to frame the first two sentences in a better way. Thanks. DTM (talk) 05:31, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the infobox image

Are there any other suitable photographs of the CDS which could be used in the infobox? (This image is used in the main article too so maybe something else could be put here?)

DTM (talk) 07:25, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am hoping PIB will release some photo tomorrow when he'll assume the office of CDS. —Sarvatra (talk, contribs) 08:14, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sarvatra Still hoping? :D There are some really good images on the PIB site but I don't think anything for the lead pic as yet. As DBX said below maybe Republic Day, or some from Army day day. DTM (talk) 13:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan: Haha. Though you might want to keep an eye on verified twitter accounts of SpokespersonMoD and adgpi. I looked for portrait image of Gen Naravane on indianarmy.nic.in (that horrible website!) but found this very nice image on their twitter handle. —Sarvatra (talk, contribs) 18:32, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Title

What is the source for the designation with the definite article? All the official sources on gov.in sites seem to suggest it should be Chief of Defence Staff without a "the". Shyamal (talk) 10:37, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Shyamal: The Gazette of India dated 28 December 2019 uses " Chief of Defence Staff" without "the".

"For the purposes of this clause, the expression “General” includes the Chief of Defence Staff or the Chief of the Army Staff, as the case may be."

I think you can go ahead and shift the page to Chief of Defence Staff right? DTM (talk) 03:18, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Moved. Shyamal (talk) 05:02, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shyamal, is the move proposal below valid?.... now that this section has a gazette entry which says otherwise? DTM (talk) 11:19, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hemant Dabral, Even the Gazette of India uses Chief of Defence Staff without a "the". Why do you want to change it again. The move proposal below is not needed?DTM (talk) 11:21, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DTM, Let's reach a consensus on that before we make any changes to the title, I'd like to know the opinions of other contributors as well, be it either in support or oppose of this move. I've given the reason of title change as per, WP:CONSISTENT. Since we have "the" included in the titles of other services chief articles too i.e. Chief of the Army Staff, Chief of the Naval Staff etc. — Hemant Dabral^Talk 11:41, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hemant Dabral: I say that we follow the official press release. If you look at the recent press release, the position of COAS, CNS and CAS contains the word "the", while CDS does not contain "the". So I think DTM is right in keeping this article as Chief of Defence Staff (India). —Sarvatra (talk, contribs) 11:47, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved — Amakuru (talk) 10:21, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chief of Defence Staff (India) → Chief of the Defence Staff (India) – As per WP:CONSISTENT, in line with Chief of the Army Staff (India), Chief of the Naval Staff (India) and Chief of the Air Staff (India). Hemant Dabral^Talk 09:10, 1 January 2020 (UTC) Hemant Dabral^Talk 09:10, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we should change the title. Info12d (talk) 11:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AT says "Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources. When this offers multiple possibilities, editors choose among them by considering several principles: the ideal article title precisely identifies the subject; it is short, natural, distinguishable and recognizable; and resembles titles for similar articles." - consistency could be achieved by changes in the other direction too - https://knowindia.gov.in/general-information/ Shyamal (talk) 11:55, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shyamal, also take the fact into consideration that there are ten articles on Wikipedia carrying the name of Chief of the Defence Staff:

Which sets the norm and uniformity of the titles used in these related articles.

While at the other hand, there is only one article carrying the name of "Chief of Defence Staff"; Chief of Defence Staff (India). — Hemant Dabral^Talk 12:13, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Hemant Dabral, please see this list:

Chief of Defence (Netherlands)
Chief of Defence Forces (Kenya)
Chief of Defence (Norway) and many more...

The term may not have staff, but there are many heads of services without the word "the". DTM (talk) 12:52, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hemant Dabral: there are three things to go by - (1) the official spelling (non-negotiable) (2) the spelling used around the world, (shown above that it varies) and (3) grammatical reasoning for having "the". Since I think the first two have been discussed previously, please can you convey the grammatical difference between the two designations - "Chief of Defence Staff" and "Chief of the Defence Staff". Grammatically what difference does adding or removing "the" make? Does the meaning change in any way? DTM (talk) 11:14, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Here, we need to understand the difference between a NAME and a SENTENCE. “Chief of Defence Staff” is the name of a military designation; it is not a sentence (emphasis to highlight, not shout). You cannot modify it. Doing so will be a violation of WP:OR, since all reliable sources mention “Chief of Defence Staff” (without a ‘the’ in between).— Vaibhavafro ^💬 13:09, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Chief of Defence Staff is the WP:COMMONNAME used by the media. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBig Xrayᗙ 13:13, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Is this suitable?

Is this suitable for the infobox? Clarity? DTM (talk) 12:52, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The image is a crop of the image of the four chiefs in the article. DTM (talk) 12:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ChidanandaKampa: The photo you uploaded has been tagged for deletion. Please see if you can find a file whose license is ok. Is this cropped image on the right ok? DTM (talk) 08:29, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This image is used in the Bipin Rawat article but this also has tagging issues. DTM (talk) 08:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DiplomatTesterMan, Use the first pic, without the salute. DBig Xrayᗙ 11:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

File:Chief of Defense Staff (CDS) General Bipin Rawat arrives for a joint military guard of honor after assuming office in New Delhi.jpg

Yes, until a better one (clarity-wise) finds its way to Commons. DTM (talk) 15:20, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DiplomatTesterMan, Government will surely release more pics. specially on the republic day. Keep an eye on the PIB site for those pics. DBig Xrayᗙ 15:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DBigXray Yes, and today is Army Day, part of the Republic Day parade. Today the four chiefs will be present for the parade. Maybe PIB will release some pics of this occasion too. DTM (talk) 05:39, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In this element of the introduction:

While being "first among equals" among the service chiefs, the CDS is a single-point military advisor to the defence minister.[5].The CDS is assisted by a deputy, the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff.

There's an extra full stop after the [5]. Please remove it. 122.150.71.249 (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. If you make an account you will be able to do such edits by yourself. --Venkat TL (talk) 19:13, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction: Active duty and retired?

In the intro, CDS is described as "the highest-ranking uniformed officer on active duty". The table now notes that the current "Appointee retired from a 3-star rank". Had he retired and was recalled to become CDS? Otherwise, this seems contradictory. —C.Fred (talk) 12:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]