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White versus European American

I have reverted several edits by User:Crxssi in which he has replaced the term "white" with "European American". Apparently he is doing this throughout Wikipedia articles. Apparently the editor wants to use Wikipedia to break new ground since the term is certainly not in common usage, let alone being the only usage, in historical writing on the Civil Rights Movement. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 01:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I had reverted several edits as well and then had a discussion on the user's talk page regarding why I reverted. The rationale was that if we're going to use "African American" rather than black, then we should use "European American" rather than white. On the surface, these conversions may seem equitable, but the problem with doing this across the board is that many of the articles that reference "white" are using U.S. Census information. Not all white/caucasian people come from Europe. People from the Middle East, some parts of North Africa, and parts of India as well are classified as white/caucasian as well. Also, "European American" is not widely used. I reverted about half of the articles before I stopped and discussed, but I don't see a need to change anything to European American. Kman543210 (talk) 01:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Just because it isn't common doesn't mean it is wrong or less correct. It has been used in various places before, and there has been a page on Wikipedia for it for years. In historical writings, "African American" is not used either, so that argument doesn't hold water. The only time I revised a page was when "White" followed or preceded "African American". Where it follows or precedes "Black", there is no inequity in terminology. And yes, although there are what some people would call non-White European Americans, there are also non-Black African Americans. I believe it is only fair to use the same type of terminology in writings, especially in an encyclopedia. As a side note, nowhere have I changed "African American" to "Black". --Crxssi (talk) 02:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
The term "African Americans" very certainly IS USED in historical writings -- it depends on the historian and when he/she is writing (as well as the context) as to whether that term is used instead of another. I really have problems with your sentence "I believe it is only fair to use the same type of terminology in writings." Who exactly do you think is getting treated unfairly? Is there some group of white folks that are upset about not being called "European Americans"? Or is the unfairness in the minds of those folks that resent the term African Americans? You also use the term inequity -- who exactly is the victim of this inequity that you hint at? It seems to me that once you admited that the usage of "European American" was not common you lost any good reason for the mass substitutions you made. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I have never seen the term "African Americans" used in any writings prior to 15 years or so ago. "Africans", "Blacks", "Negros", yes, but not "African Americans". I don't see why you have a problem with the concept of term fairness or equity. To answer your question, I think it is fairness to those that are offended not by the term "African American", but are offended by being called "White" right next to "African American". Inotherwords, I would support the use of "White" with "Black", "Caucasian" with "Negro", "European American" with "African American" when used in close proximity to each other, but not mixing them. --Crxssi (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
So the problem that you have identified is those people who "are offended by being called 'White' right next to 'African American'." Being of the white persuasion myself, exactly why am I supposed to feel offended by this? How many white people feel like this? Has a consensus been reached among us white folks? Is there some group or groups of white pride organizations who have made this terminlogy part of their political or cultural agenda? Are these organizations generally accepted as spokespersons for white Americans? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I never said YOU would be offended by term inequity. Perhaps you are not, and that's fine. (In a similar light, I know some Black people who are offended by the term "African American"). But you don't speak for everyone either. You are trying to turn this into a racism thread, which it is not. It is about equitable terminology, that is all. If you don't see the need, I can understand that. But you should be able to envision that there are those that do, and I know several, and none of them are racist; they believe strongly in equality, which, again, is what this is about. --72.218.114.15 (talk) 15:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Was accidentally signed off... --Crxssi (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Now it's clear. "European Americans" is a term NOT used with any frequency by historians and its use as a replacement for "whites" is NOT the subject of any significant public debate. You just made the change in a dozen or so articles in a bold attempt to expose the problem of "equitable terminology".
So exactly why should anyone be "offended" by the alleged violation of this grammatical (?) concept (euphemism?) of "equitable terminology"? I don't like split infintives, but I've never felt "offended" when someone uses one. I get it that you say you are not a "racist", but it seems that either you feel that blacks are getting some sort of advantage that they're not entitled to, or whites are being denied something that they really "need". So which is it (or is it both?), and who are the bad guys that have made this happen? Are these bad guys racists? if not, why do you suppose they are doing it?
You made your big splash with your dozens of edits. On your talk page you wrote, "It seems people are not ready yet to use equal terms in the US." With such a smug dismissal of those who disagree with you, I think you owe us a better explanation than simply the coining of a new euphemism. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't owe any additional explanations than I have already given several times, which were quite clear. However, I will answer the question one more time in a different way, as two questions: Why use the term "African American" instead of "Black"? What would the reaction be to calling "Asian Americans" "Yellow" or "Native Americans" "Red"? Once you understand the reasons, then you will understand why having modern, viable alternatives for colors should also exist and be used for "White". The most logical term would be "European American". Although it is not perfect, neither are most of the other "-American" terms. --Crxssi (talk) 02:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually I find your previous “explanations” to be very unclear. In your latest response, it appears what you are doing is trivializing the very real differences in the roles that African Americans and whites have played in this country’s history -- role that were largely assigned by white Americans. It is this role, first as slaves and then as second class citizens under Jim Crow, that has led to concerns among African Americans about how they choose to identify themselves before the public and expectations that other Americans honor their decisions. I can understand why the term “Negro” and other much more derogatory terms have been rejected by African Americans -- the associations with these terms are painful and demeaning.
Whites, however, have never had this concern. From 1776 on, white Americans have been referred to as “white” because that is how we chose to refer to ourselves. We suffered no discrimination because we were white and had nobody else writing our history who could assign names to us as a class that we did not approve of. There is no painful or demeaning association with the term “white” that is in any way comparable to the associations with terms like “Negro”, “redskin”, “yellow man”, etc.
In fact, even today white people continue to refer to themselves as white people -- you are attempting to provide a solution for a non-existent problem. African Americans and whites both get to use the terms that they themselves prefer and the other respects that determination -- seems like “equitable terminology” to me.
Your implication that replacing “white” with some different term is comparable to the decisions made by African Americans or Native Americans is very simply an illogical, non-starter. Why don’t you make it simple for everyone and complete this sentence, “White Americans are offended (or should be offended) by the use of the term “white” to describe themselves because _________________.” Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Now you are presuming that I can speak for everyone, which I can't. You didn't directly answer either of my questions (but did have an interesting and mostly relevant response) and then asked a new question back. I am not going to answer your question as you phrase it, because that is like asking the question "What method do you like to use to kill kittens?" Firstly, adding "(or should be offended)" is loaded. Secondly, I have projected all along that using unequal (or unbalanced) terms in close proximity is the issue, not one term or the other in isolation of similar category together. I don't think any "White" person is offended by saying "blah blah Blacks blah blah Whites". Yet "blah blah African Americans blah blah Whites", has a much different connotation.
I suspect that if most people (of any race, color, or nationality) were reading this thread and thinking about it critically, they would probably think it perfectly logical and appropriate to use terms that are equal in classification, connotation, and perception. It is better to project equality, which is what countless Americans have struggled for in the past (and the present). My question was: 'Why use the term "African American" instead of "Black"'? There are many reasons. And hopefully most of those reasons are not to convey some special status for historically oppressed people, but to better show origin, culture, respect, and appreciate diversity in modern society while losing any negative baggage of older terms. The same for other "-American" terms. Why not apply similar terms across the board equally? Why is it "wrong" to replace "White" but not "Black"? Are you going to say that "Whites" don't deserve it? Should be punished? The current (post 60's) generations of European Americans/Whites are not at fault for historical inequities in society. Of course, there are always *individuals* of poor distinction, but it is my observation that such individuals can be of any color, religion, or nationality. --Crxssi (talk) 22:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

First to old business since I didn’t directly answer your previous questions.

You asked, Why use the term "African American" instead of "Black"?

The term “African American” is used because there appears to be a consensus among African Americans that this is a preferred term. I believe that “Black”, which also came into common usage because of the preference of blacks during the 1960s -- it is not considered offensive and is still frequently used. We should have no hesitation about using either term where appropriate.

You also asked, What would the reaction be to calling "Asian Americans" "Yellow" or "Native Americans" "Red"?

There would be a bad reaction, I would imagine, if a public figure were to use such terms. So we should not use such terms.

So let me ask you a parallel question: What would the reaction be to calling people in the United States, that look like they might be European, “white”?

My answer would be that there would be absolutely no reaction at all. I arrive at this answer because it happens every day and there is no reaction. What is your answer?

Other questions from you with answers:

Why not apply similar terms across the board equally?

Because there is pretty much a national consensus that the word “white” meets the needs of white Americans.

Why is it "wrong" to replace "White" but not "Black"?

The difference is that the replacement for "black" is commonly used and the replacement for "white" is not. The reason why one is commn and the other is not is because large numbers of people care about one and very few people care about the other.

Are you going to say that "Whites" don't deserve it?

I’m saying “whites” don’t want it. If we did want it, it would happen. Who do you suppose would stop us?

Should be punished?

You don’t punish somebody by denying them something that they don’t seem to want. So you feel punished? Who is responsible for punishing you in this way? Or to put it in big picture terms, who do you imagine has the capability in the USA to punish the entire white race?

Your “equality” issue appears to be nothing but a smokescreen. You say,

I suspect that if most people (of any race, color, or nationality) were reading this thread and thinking about it critically, they would probably think it perfectly logical and appropriate to use terms that are equal in classification, connotation, and perception.

Once again, you smugly assume that the only conclusion that “critical thinkers” could come up with is yours -- despite the fact that your preferred term is rarely seen. I have asked you to show me that this issue is part of some political or social movement and I got no response. Can you provide one now?

To address your argument, however, the following seems clear:

“African American” and “white” are equal in classification -- they each refer to a specific group that is generally recognizable (with considerable overlap) in our society.

“African American” and “white” are equal in connotation -- each is accepted as an accurate and preferred name by the members of the respective group.

“African American” and “white” are equal in perception -- members and non-members frequently use them in the types of parallel construction that you so object to.

The reasons why the “term black” gained popularity in the 1960s is well documented as are the circumstances leading to the preference for African Americans in the late 1980s. I have explained why terminology is more important to a “historically oppressed” people and you have explained the reasons why “African American” was seen as a preferable term to “blacks”. Terminology changed as circumstances changed. No such changes occurred for whites because the circumstances did not change for whites -- we were politically, economically, and socially advantaged in 1776 and remain so today. It was absolutely necessary for oppressed minorities to organize as a group in order to obtain equal rights. The idea of the white majority starting to think in the same terms by imagining itself as threatened with some future oppression by these minorities sounds downright fascist to me.

You obviously think white people are getting the short end of the stick on this. I have asked you to explain WHY you feel this way and you avoid answering. You are using the language of victimhood and applying it to the most influential group in the nation. You appear to see something that blacks have and you don’t have. It seems to me that when whites profess to be victimized by minorities, the intent is to artificially stir up racial animosity -- not in the cause of equality but for a diametrically opposed purpose. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

So to summarize what I got out of your response was, "European American" should not be used because: 1) It isn't common (even though no term is common at first), 2) People aren't complaining (although some obviously are.. I am not the only one who made such an edit), 3) It isn't needed because few are offended by "White" (that isn't the point, few are offended by "Black"), 4) "African American" and "White" are equal in classification/etc (even though the are not, because one is a region of origin and the other is a color), 5) Having a new term was necessary for Blacks to obtain equal rights (which it was not, because the new term didn't really come into use until afterwards), 6) Having "-American" terms is only relevant (or allowed?) for historically oppressed groups of people, 7) The only motivation for asking for equal terms is to stir up racial animosity or fascism (???). I am amazed at what appears to be some of your conclusions. And I have told you why I feel the way I do, because I believe in equality. There is no hidden agenda, I am not tied to any social movement, I am not trying to "take away" anything from anyone, I just believe all people should be treated as equally as possible. All I can say after this is that I disagree with what appears to be your conclusions, and leave it at that, because nothing else I say will make any difference. --Crxssi (talk) 03:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Do any style guides address this, such as newspaper style guides? -- SEWilco (talk) 04:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure, but I imagine so. I suspect they, too, would just be based on what is most "common", however. --Crxssi (talk) 11:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually my objections would have stopped at #1 (common usage) if you hadn’t responded as you did. You could have left this discussion at the grammatical level, but you chose not to. You decided to suggest that whites were being “punished” and made statements such as:
To answer your question, I think it is fairness to those that are offended not by the term "African American", but are offended by being called "White" right next to "African American".
You have repeatedly failed to explain (1) why this is offensive and (2) who these white people are that feel offended. Shouldn’t there be an intent to offend before someone takes offense? Shouldn’t there have been some effort to let people know that a term is offensive before offense is taken? You otherwise do a bad job of paraphrasing what I said, but I’ll let most of it pass. What I will reiterate, however, is that I see nothing positive or constructive when any claims are made that white people in this country are being treated in a discriminatory manner. Such talk minimizes ACTUAL discrimination and trivializes legitimate concerns of minorities. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

White Latin Americans- Every American knows if the person is coming up from south of the border they are not white right? No, in there countries they are but in our US eye we don't see it that way but since this is the english language Wikipedia and not USA Wikipedia we shoud use terms that do not confuse as well as white latin americans Arabs and Turks are considered white in their own countries but over in the US we do not have a standard so we just say Jordanian or Turkish (European but not a colonizing force in NA or SA) ---- Nate Riley 15:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)N8Riley

Naiveté?

The naiveté of the Kennedy brothers was demonstrated in Robert Kennedy's declaration in 1962 that, "[T]he Irish were not wanted here. Now an Irish Catholic is President of the United States. There is no question about it, in the next forty years a Negro can achieve the same position."

Naive?... he was only 6 years out! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.4.71 (talk) 03:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I'll remove the paragraph. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Dead Links?

There are some links going to the Tallahassee democrat site that don't work anymore, as the site only keeps articles from the past year. 68.42.55.233 (talk) 01:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)popppxfab;vgui;BF

Obama

I know there is a lot of euphoria about Obama's election and it is indeed an historic event. But the small single sentence on his election has no place in an article dated 1955-68 in the title. This is a big enough article as it is without adding sections which do not really belong here. I have removed the section, if anyone can give me a good reason for it to be there then please let me know. Jajon (talk) 19:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

No mention of civil rights movement in Slavery in the United States

The words "civil rights movement" do not appear in the article Slavery in the United States nor is there a link to this article in it. When I placed a link to Timeline of the African-American Civil Rights Movement into "See also" in Slavery in the United States, it was removed with the comment "that has nothing to do with slavery". It seems unimaginable to me that the process by which slavery was removed here wouldn't be germane to the article on slavery here. Comments? Simesa (talk) 02:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Added a sentence to the "Reconstruction to present" section in Slavery in the United States to read, "During Reconstruction, it was a serious question whether slavery had been permanently abolished or whether some form of semi-slavery would appear after the Union armies left. A large civil rights movement arose to to bring full civil rights and equality under the law to all Americans." Simesa (talk) 08:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

There is an Abolition of slavery timeline - I'll place a link to our timeline there. Simesa (talk) 02:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

michael jackson?

should michael jackson be mentioned? While the main civil rights movement happened before he was a celebrity, like al sharpton said, he made a comfort level for whites and blacks to accept each other. before michael jackson the majority of whites didnt listen to "black" music (see :Motown ). After the civil rights movement there was still tension, and he helped ease that tension. and as we all know, before him black artists weren't alllowed on MTV. hes like a post-movement aide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thechode69 (talk • contribs) 05:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

  • I say no. He was just an modern day entertainer with A LOT of problems; you could argue for Nat King Cole, Chuck Berry, Sammy Davis, Jr. and Jimi Hendrix if one wanted to add a or some Civil Rights era entertainer(s) who made a difference.Kierzek (talk) 12:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
But those artists didn't affect people in the same way. At Michael Jackson concerts you passed out from the presence of being near him. At, say, a Jimi Hendrix concert you passed out because it was really smokey and everyone was high. I'm not asking for a page overhaul, I'm saying something like a Jackie Robinson-like mention. It doesn't matter what "problems" anyone has. That's for a different article. The fact of the matter is he helped people accept each other naturally, not just because the law said they had to. Thechode69 (talk) 14:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
The Civil Rights Movement (also known as the Freedom Movement) of the 1950s and 1960s was a struggle against various specific forms of racism and discrimination. As such, it was a particular period in the history of African-Americans in the US and the centuries-long issues of racism and anti-racism in America. A discussion of how Michael Jackson (and other black celebrities) affected blacks, whites, and black-white relations might be appropriate for broader articles on African-Americans in general, racism, black-white relations in the U.S, the intersection of culture and race and so on, but I think Michael Jackson is beyond the scope of an article on the Civil Rights Movement. Jackie Robinson, on the other hand, is relevant because breaking the color-bar in sports was directly related to breaking similar color-bars in other areas, and Jackie Robinson himself was active the movement as a speaker, fund-raiser, and supporter.
Brucehartford (talk) 15:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Michael Jackson was a talented singer and dancer, but he played no role in the Civil Rights Movement. Nat King Cole had a national television program during the 1950s. Some say Jackson was the first Black artist whose video was shown on MTV. (Frankly, I remember seeing Prince and Rick James videos before Jackson's, but I won't argue the point.) One accomplishment was important to the fight for racial equality and the other was trivial, and I hope you can figure out which was which. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

White sympathisers

Under "Sit-ins, 1960", the article says: "These protesters were encouraged to dress professionally, to sit quietly, and to occupy every other stool so that potential white sympathizers could join in."

Were these only potential sympathisers? I'd be interested to know the story of the unsung white sympathisers or activists. The article references some outstanding white people by name, but what was the overall story? My god, everyone was brave, but to stand out against such hatred amongst their own community must have been exceptionally so.

See also Topics to be discussed and Unitarian Universalists.

I'm British, white, middle-aged, male (not necessarily in that order); currently listening to Mavis Staples: We'll Never Turn Back. It seems clear to me there was a huge involvement of religion on both sides. What was the level of secularism among those whites who rebelled against their prevailing culture, and those blacks who could so easily tune in to the gospel theme of the Movement? -- Isidore (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

After the first Greensboro sit-in, the strategy of "occupy[ing] every other stool so that potential white sympathizers could join in," was not widely used by the sit-in movement as a whole because so few white bystanders ever spontaneously joined a sit-in. It did happen on a few, very rare occasions -- a white women spontaneously joined a street sit-in in Atlanta in 1963, for example -- but those instances are remembered precisely because they were so rare. Most sit-in groups adopted the strategy of sitting close together for mutual protection because the every-other-seat tactic made it much easier for thugs to pull you off the chair or attack you from the side. But, to be clear, we're talking here about white bystanders spontaneously joining a sit-in, not the many white civil rights activists who participated in sit-ins as members of the group.
Brucehartford (talk) 21:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 2010

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was reject Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
African-American Civil Rights Movement (1955–1968) → American Civil Rights Movement (1955–1968) — "American Civil Rights Movement" is the more widely used term, and the rights at issue belong to all Americans Racepacket (talk) 18:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

See also previous discussion at #Requested move 2006, #Move, and #Name change.

These pages were moved in 2006, and informal proposals to revert them back have been made repeatedly. Several reasons have been given. 1) As a matter of history and law, the rights of all Americans and not just African-Americans were at issue, and the movement addressed discrimination based on race, religion and national origin. After the 1960s this was expanded to include discrimination based on age, gender, and sexual orientation. 2) The term "African-American" was not in widespread use during this period, and is not found in contemporaneous documents from the movement. 3) Leaders including Martin Luther King, Jr. would have been abhorred by the notion that they were seeking what Wallace, Reagan and others would denigrate as "special rights" -- they were defending the rights of all by restoring the rights of the disenfranchised. 4) The rights of other minorities were similarly marginalized, including Jews, Hispanics and Asians. Leaders such as King made a point of crossing lines of color to build a broader movement, and recruiting labor unions, anti-poverty groups and white churches with gusto, yet avoiding paternalism within the tent. 5) Because the scholarly literature and Wikipedia links use the phrase "American Civil Rights Movement" having that name be the article name is more user-friendly. Racepacket (talk) 18:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I concur with all points made by Racepacket. Indeed, the juristic result of the movement was in line with (1) in that rights were directly expanded for other classes besides American blacks. In corollary to (2), the phrase "civil rights movement" is itself anachronistic for the pre-1954 articles, but does at least have scholarly application. For (3) and (4) there were certainly differences of opinion among the leadership, but King clearly preferred to build bridges across racial and other lines. e.g. In re (5), the majority of serious scholarly works use the phrase "American Civil Rights Movement" or, if written for a US audience, simply "Civil Rights Movement". It may make sense to disambiguate using the word "American", given that has support, but it seems confounding to use an anachronistic term that most students will not encounter in more than a handful of sources. --Dhartung | Talk 19:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
By the way, my comments three years ago on the occasion of the original move to the title African-American Civil Rights Movement... are at #Move. In particular note my concern about choosing a specific and anachronistic name rather than a more broadly applicable name to address concerns about scope (i.e. what is meant by and included under "civil rights movement"). The generic title History of human rights in the United States remains unused. --Dhartung | Talk 19:26, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't care whether the articles are moved or not, but point (1) is mistaken. While the Movement talked about equal rights for all Americans, (a) it fought primarily for the rights of African-Americans to equal access and suffrage and (b) the Movement didn't expand to include gender or sexual orientation. Perhaps you never heard Stokely Carmichael's (in)famous quip, "The only position for women in SNCC is prone"? Part of the motivation behind the second-wave feminist movement was frustration that the Civil Rights Movement didn't take women's issues seriously. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:25, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I understand that gender, age and sexual orientation did not become a part of the movement until after the 1960s, but the people advancing non-discrimination in these areas built upon the legal structures established by 1965 to address discrimination based on race, religion and national origin. For example, Title IX of the Higher Education Amendments of 1972 merely added "sex" to the list of prohibited forms of discrimination and the Office of Civil Rights in the Dept. of Edcation became responsible for compliance on all forms of discrimination including women's athletics. Racepacket (talk) 22:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I dispute your Google results -- see my comment below. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose move — the primary group of people involved are African-Americans. There probably would not be an "American Civil Rights Movement" had racism and enslavement not been a very significant foundational feature of the United States for a couple of centuries. Bus stop (talk) 22:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
  • There were many cases of documented violence and discrimination in both the 19th and 20th centuries against immigrants and against religious minorities. The KKK regarded all of these groups as targets. The resulting legislation prohibited discrimination on the basis of race, religion or national origin. If you have sources to support the claim that the "primary group of people involved were African-Americans" I would be very interested in reviewing it. Everything I have seen shows a the broad, diverse coalition behind the civil rights movement. Racepacket (talk) 05:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The civil rights movement primarily redresses institutionalized slavery. The prominence of the civil rights movement is tied to the economic importance of free labor in the founding of America. The civil rights movement exists on the national stage at a level that does not correlate to the lesser wrongs that you have made reference to. The civil rights movement attains a level of national importance that is closely correlated to the family memory of the pain of racism carried by African Americans. The history of slavery is tied into the American consciousness as no other incident or series of lesser wrongs possibly could be. Bus stop (talk) 08:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Again, I would be interested in seeing your sources. Both Abolitionism and the civil rights movement had the fundamental goal of persuading those in power to change social policy. The key argument was that all Americans have civil rights that must be protected by government and by social norms. While I acknowledge that some people can hold strong views about the relationship between the civil rights movement and Afriican-Americans, I think that in order for Wikipedia to be user friendly, we need to go with the most popular terminology and avoid POV-pushing in the title. The relative impact of the movement on various categories at various times can be included in the article with well-sourced statements. In this regard, the Abolitionism article is an excellent model, both with its title and the manner in which it covers roles and outcomes. Racepacket (talk) 13:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Racepacket — I'm not sure what you mean by your reference to "user friendly." Can you please explain to me how the title "African-American Civil Rights Movement" is not "user friendly," or how the suggested title "American Civil Rights Movement" would be more user friendly?
As a matter of fact I don't "hold strong views" at all. I am just looking at the issues at hand, and what I see is the central relevance of African-Americans to the Civil Rights Movement.
"POV-pushing" should not be invoked at all in my opinion. I could just as well be saying that your assertion is "POV-pushing." I don't think that is a very constructive way of deciding whether the suggested title change represents a good suggestion or a bad suggestion. Assuming good faith, in this particular instance anyway, involves the disinterested viewing of the two alternative titles, and the subject matter that the title is intended to entail.
As concerns other groups that might have benefitted from the movement — that could be true — but does it concern the naming of the primary group that the movement was about?
I am of the opinion that the primary group should be in the title. African-Americans, in this instance, are the prime mover of the movement. Additionally they are by far the most aggrieved party. Other categories of people who have suffered injustices might have benefitted as a result of the general civil rights that African-Americans struggled for. But those other categories of people were peripheral to the central and galvanizing concept of this movement. This movement was primarily about winning long-denied rights of African-Americans. Bus stop (talk) 22:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Much as I applaud your calling the bluff of someone who has nothing to back up their opinion, the "slavery" point is moot. Even if the civil rights movement primarily redressed institutionalized slavery, it still would be not basis for choosing an artificial article name, as you point out in the second half of your post. — Sebastian 23:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Sebastian — How do you see the title "African-American Civil Rights Movement" as being "artificial?" The Civil Rights Movement concerns itself more than anything else with the obtaining of civil rights by and for African-Americans. How would you see that title as being artificial? Bus stop (talk) 02:43, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
We need to use the most common name, as AjaxSmack said above. What I meant was that you ignored that important point and instead promoted a name based on your own analysis of history. That felt artificial to me (probably because I thought of WP:SYNTHESIS). — Sebastian 18:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose move. Although in the United States, "civil rights movement" is sometimes understood to mean the struggle for African-American equality (excluding Latinos, women, and gay people), we are writing an encyclopedia that should be able to be used and understood by people all over the world. This scope of this article should be immediately clear to people who do not have our cultural assumptions built in. Ine the interest of specificity, non-POV writing, and a global and contemporary perspective on the various movments for civil rights, this current title should stay. Throughout the entire article the movement is referred to the "civil rights movement". But the title should reflect its place in a larger historical context - one that isn't based on American perspectives and assumptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.240.43 (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose move. Contrary to a claim made above, when a Google Search is done with the competing terms in quotes in order to get an EXACT match, "African American Civil Rights movement" comes up with 619,000 hits while "American Civl Rights Movement" comes up with only 201,000. The article is about, and should remain ONLY about, the topic of the Civil Rights Movement involving African Americans -- eliminating African American from the title will be an open invitation to make the article about ALL CIVIL RIGHTS efforts in the country rather than this DISTINCT one with its own DISTINCT history. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
    Actually, that is true (after correcting the typo). That weakens my support. The actual name in use was neither; a typical textbook such as We The People, Glencoe Press 1975, uses simply "Civil Rights movement". But that name conflicts with (the lowercase title) civil rights movement. How about "Civil Rights Movement in the United States (...)"? That would match category:Human rights in the United States and similar categories. (I am keeping my vote for now, since "American Civil Rights Movement" is the second best option, matching such categories as category:American civil rights activists.) — Sebastian 21:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Since it cannot be objectively established that the current title IS NOT the most common name, I don't see why this proposal should go any further. When I look at the original five reasons presented for changing the title, it appears that the intent is not simply to change the title of the article but to change the focus of the article. For example:
POINT 1 -- As a matter of history and law, the rights of all Americans and not just African-Americans were at issue, and the movement addressed discrimination based on race, religion and national origin. After the 1960s this was expanded to include discrimination based on age, gender, and sexual orientation
MY COMMENT -- In fact, this article as well as most works on the subject DO NOT mix in these various other movements -- the key events of the civil rights movement have NOTHING to do with these other causes. Since the movement made great strides, it is only natural that later movements would have adopted SOME of the methods and rhetoric of the civil rights movement, but the differences are much greater than the similarities. The long history of the civil rights movement had one main and overriding focus -- African American politcal and social equality.
POINT 3 -- Leaders including Martin Luther King, Jr. would have been abhorred by the notion that they were seeking what Wallace, Reagan and others would denigrate as "special rights" -- they were defending the rights of all by restoring the rights of the disenfranchised.
MY COMMENT -- This, to me, is the most troubling argument. The use of the term "special rights" is often used to denigrate and marginalize both past and current concerns about racial equality in this country. By attempting to water down this article with a myriad of other worthy causes takes away from the uniqueness of the situation faced by African Americans -- scholarly works on the civil rights movement DO NOT do this and there is no reason that wikipedia should do it either. Rather than addressing the improper and racist use of the term "special rights", I fear that the proposed changes would, unintentionally, serve the exact opposite purpose. This leads directly to the next point:
POINT 4 -- The rights of other minorities were similarly marginalized, including Jews, Hispanics and Asians. Leaders such as King made a point of crossing lines of color to build a broader movement, and recruiting labor unions, anti-poverty groups and white churches with gusto, yet avoiding paternalism within the tent.
MY COMMENT -- This is, at best, misleading. White churches and labor unions for much of the period opposed civil rights for blacks more than they supported it. Anti-poverty groups were a spinoff of the civil rights movement rather than a part of it and come into play mainly AFTER the time period (ending in 1968) of these articles.
As someone who grew up in the US during this era, there would have been no question when someone used the term "civil rights movement" what they were talking about. For younger Americans as well as non-Americans, the term is less clear. There should be no doubt created in these people's mind whether or not this movement was a distinct movement involving one main issue -- if this requires the use of the phrase "African American" being added to the title, the so be it. Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Deciding an article title lays out five main criteria and the current name satisfies all of them. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 13:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Your attribution of motives to other editors is presumptive and unwarranted. Topical arguments have been made by both sides throughout this discussion, and so far no one saw fit to jump to such conclusions; not now, and not when the article was renamed from "American" to "African-American" in the first place. — Sebastian 17:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
What you describe as the "attribution of motives to other editors" is, in fact, nothing more than stating the obvious. The editor who made the original proposal justified it by referring to such items as discrimination because of nationality, religion, age, gender, and sexual orientation. In fact, this article says NOTHING about ANY of these issues, does it? It seems clear to me that the issue with this editor is not about naming the article AS IT EXISTS but as he/she WOULD LIKE IT TO EXIST. I am open to any other explanation as to why we should base the name of this article on issues NOT COVERED by this article if it is not to change the focus of the article.
In fact, if you go back to the original reason why the name was changed to the current name, it was because this article ONLY addressed civil rights as it related to African Americans. There are articles on wikipedia that specifically address other parallel movements (i.e. Chicano Movement, women's rights, gay rights, nativism|) -- why exactly should we exclude African Americans from this pattern? The current title describes EXACTLY what this article is about. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
You certainly have your heart at the right place; you care about civil rights, and I'm happy that you volunteer your time here. You already convinced me that the proposed new name is not the best name, and I don't feel strongly about whether this article has the third best or the second best name. But I feel compelled to reply to your claim that you are "open to any other [arguments for other names]". That is simply not true:
  1. You write that something "cannot be objectively established", while the very post you replied to shows otherwise. "Civil Rights Movement" has 3,430,000 Google results, most of which right on topic.
  2. You claim that all WP:NAME criteria are met, while clearly at least one of them, the consistency criterion, is not met, as has been pointed out in the post you replied to.
I have not said anything about it so far, because it wasn't as important to me. But your claim to be "open" was just too much. "Open" is not as open says, but as open does. — Sebastian 04:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
You have misrepresented what I said with respect to "open". What I ACTUALLY said was "I am open to any other explanation as to why we should base the name of this article on issues NOT COVERED by this article if it is not to change the focus of the article." This goes directly to the original rationale offered to justify the proposed name change. You miss, or ignore, both the sarcasm and the context. You accused me of improperly questioning motives and I was replying that the motives were obvious.
The problem with renaming this article as Civil rights movement is obvious -- as you pointed out, there is already a wikipedia article with that name. As far as consistency, the guideline states:
Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern as those of other similar articles.
You made a comparison not with other articles but with a category classification. In fact, the "pattern" is that the group involved in articles of this type is readily identifiable from the title. Examples include Chicano Movement ("Chicano" in the title), Native American civil rights ("Native American" in the title), LGBT rights in the United States ("LGBT" is in the title), and First-wave feminism and Second-wave feminism ("feminism" refers to women and is in the title). For consistency purposes, African American needs to be in the title. Your earlier proposal to change this article to ""Civil Rights Movement in the United States" would NOT be consistent with these articles. The quidelines further state:
Precise – Using names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously.
Ambiguity would exist in the title without the inclusion of "African American" in the title. This is clearly demonstrated by the current proposal (which wishes to change the focus of the article), the original proposal that resulted in the change to the current name, and the existence of the article Civil rights movement. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply to both this and my previous posts. And also thank you for caring about this article; I noticed that you had to fix several vandalisms in the meantime.
Yes, I did miss the sarcasm and took it seriously. But I don't think it's helpful to accuse me of "misrepresent[ing you]" for that.
Motives: The point is not how obvious the motives of others may or may not be. Even if we knew exactly what motives others had, it still would be irrelevant. We need to base our arguments on content, and they need to stand on their own merits. This holds even if we like other's motives. I respect your motives, but that in itself doesn't convince me of your naming preference.
Yes, my consistency argument appeared to be based on categories only. But only on the surface. Each category stands for a collection of articles. If you look inside the categories, you will find plenty examples for the pattern "<most common name> in the United States", including even one you cited yourself! By contrast, I don't see any article that's named with an uncommon name, for any reason. — Sebastian 00:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why "African"-American Civil Rights Movement

The movement was for all Americans, the title should be changed to the American civil rights movement..Could someone please change this..Racializing everything has got to stop!68.34.12.93 (talk) 17:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

See the preceding section, in which a proposal to move the article was discussed and rejected. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:57, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Malcolm X

Malcolm X was not a champion of Civil Rights till much later in his life (post-pilgrimage to Mecca). Prior to his pilgrimage, Malcolm supported Black Separatism/Nationalism, the complete opposite of Civil Rights. Because of this, he shouldn't be considered a Civil Rights leader, at least no a prominent one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.172.126.145 (talk) 03:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

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