Talk:Costello's

Costello's is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 14, 2024.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
July 19, 2024	Good article nominee	Listed
August 26, 2024	Featured article candidate	Promoted

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on August 28, 2024.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Ernest Hemingway broke a cane over John O'Hara's head in Costello's, an Irish bar in New York City?

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 19:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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... that Ernest Hemingway broke a blackthorn cane over John O'Hara's head in Costello's, a New York City Irish bar?

Source: Batterberry, Michael; Batterberry, Ariane (1999) [First published 1973 by Scribner: New York]. On the Town in New York: The Landmark History of Eating, Drinking, and Entertainments from the American Revolution to the Food Revolution (25th anniversary special ed.). New York: Routledge. p. 275. ISBN 978-0-415-92020-9 – via Google Books; Bruccoli, Matthew J. (1995) [First published 1975]. The O'Hara Concern: A Biography of John O'Hara. University of Pittsburgh Press. p. 172. ISBN 978-0-8229-5559-7 – via Google Books.

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Abortion in Liberia

Created by Voorts (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 7 past nominations.

voorts (talk/contributions) 01:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC).[reply]

The article, being a Good Level article, is long enough and properly uses in-line citations. It was passed today, so is new enough for requirements. The hook is interesting and is nominally referenced, but I run across a problem with it and your second reference used. According to The O'Hara Concern, the interaction with Hemingway ended with "Hemingway took the bet and said, "Not only that, but I'm going to break it over my own head". So he didn't break the blackthorn staff over O'Hara's head, but his own. Perhaps you misunderstood the line just after where it said O'Hara was "painfully pounded", but that was referring to Hemingway pounding him on the back when he walked over. Silverseren^C 22:10, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Silver seren:: I believe The O'Hara Concern is the only source that tells the story that way. Every other source states that Hemingway broke the cane over O'Hara's head. I've moved that into a footnote. Thank you for bringing that up. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - Okay, that looks good. And the QPQ has been done already. Everything's good to go! Silver seren^C 22:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative hook with added detail that adds more color to the story: ... that Ernest Hemingway broke a blackthorn cane over John O'Hara's head in Costello's, a New York City Irish bar, and that Costello's owner displayed the broken cane over the bar? The wording could probably use some workshopping. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note for future 4A purposes that I nominated this as a newly-created article, but it was promoted to GA before it could be reviewed here. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Images in the article

Voorts, congrats on the GA. I know what you mean about there not being many images, I spent a long time last night looking. Some possibilities:

Marilyn Monroe picture: [1] or [2]: Covered under Fair use with commentary (WP:NFCI #9) from this NYT piece: "Costello's, 44th Street and Third Avenue -- Marilyn was introduced to Tom Costello's classic Irish saloon when Milton Green asked the photographer Ed Feingersh to make Marilyn look like more of a New Yorker. In response, Feingersh photographed her against the James Thurber doodles in a back booth."
John McNulty picture: [1]: published 1957, will almost certainly be in public domain (Copyright renewal in the United States). I can try verifying that it is if you like the picture.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:51, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the Monroe pictures. They're currently uploaded to Commons, and I tagged them for speedy deletion. I'm not sure if I can upload them here under a non-free license while they're still uploaded to Commons. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox restaurant

Should Template:Infobox restaurant be added? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've thought about it/tried doing it, but the several location changes throughout its history makes it hard. Can you try mocking one up? voorts (talk/contributions) 15:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Voorts I've added one to the article. I am sure there are other fields to fill in, but I got the ball rolling and you're welcome to revert if you prefer. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed it for now. It's already too big for the size of the article and adding more to it would make it stretch halfway down the page. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Costello's name

Moved from User talk:Voorts § Costello's name

– voorts (talk/contributions) 04:12, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the restaurant can clearly be seen in the window of the first image. Bajaria (talk) 03:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bajaria: I wrote this article and read all of the reliable sources that I could find about it. There's no indication that the restaurant was "officially" (as your edit described it) named "Costello's Restaurant Chop House". The words "Restaurant" and "Chop House" on the window were likely just there as descriptions of what the establishment was. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Founded in 1929?

It looks to me like the date of 1929 is questioned by footnote b, but does not itself come with a source. Am I missing something? To quote [1], which is the only source I can find that goes into any detail, Many articles state it opened in 1929 as a speakeasy, but that probably comes from a misunderstanding of something Tim said that was included in McNulty’s book. In Thurber’s biography, Kinney wrote that Tim opened the place in 1934, which was a year after Prohibition was repealed. How can we say with confidence that Costello's (also known as Tim's) was a bar and restaurant in Midtown Manhattan, New York City, from 1929 to 1992, and that the bar was founded in 1929 as a speakeasy on Third Avenue by brothers Tim and Joe Costello? It also seems like the question was not brought up when this was a GA or FA candidate. It's one thing if we decide -- after careful review of the sources -- that there's overwhelming evidence that the 1929 foundation date is true. But without even checking, and when there are zero sources presented to begin with?? Renerpho (talk) 01:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources for 1929 are in ref 5; not every sentence gets an individual citation. Additionally, what matters is what is verifiable; Lithub is less reliable than the other sources cited, all of which say Tim's opened in 1929. See WP:VNT. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about Kinney, Harrison: James Thurber: His Life and Times, Henry Holt & Co, 1995, which Lithub cites as one of her sources for the date being wrong? Has it been checked? Renerpho (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The Lithub source, which is cited and discussed in note b, says that Kinney wrote that the bar opened in 1934, which he indeed does. The Lithub source dates the bar's opening from 1933-1940 and doubts, but does not explicitly disprove, that Tim operated a speakeasy before then; the majority of other sources say that Tim opened a speakeasy in 1929. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To give some more explanation: my thinking behind the footnote is that we have two sources out of the dozens on this bar that say it was founded in a year other than 1929. 1929 is the verifiable year of opening in most sources, even if it may be false, and I think that explaining the dissenting voices in a footnote is due. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]