Talk:Daniel B. Borenstein

My Page Article

I would appreciate any suggested additions, suggestions, and corrections to improve my page. I have multiple publications in my field, but I don't know if references to them are appropriate or fit. Someone else in England representing herself as a Wikipedia assistant put this page together years ago. DBBorenstein (talk) 17:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• DBBorenstein, this is not "your" page.Sorry. This is also not LinkedIn. Also, I saw these edits--again, we're not building resumes here. I'm not sure what you mean with "Wikipedia assistant", but it sounds like you paid someone to write this up for you, and I suppose by now it's neither here nor there. User:Tacyarg, maybe we should have a closer look at the rest of the article. Drmies (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• But I do have a suggestion: read up on our guidelines and policies, particularly WP:COI and WP:RS. WP:BLP applies too: these are the most important ones. To summarize in normal English: one shouldn't be editing one's own article, and all articles need to be written up neutrally with the support of reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Drmies (talk) 00:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Request edit on 7 August 2024

The following suggestive, but unclear, statement appears on the page and needs documentation: "In the 1980s, prior to assuming the APA presidency, Borenstein wrote numerous academic articles addressing significant mental health issues experienced during medical training.[citation needed]" It refers to an effort to address a major problem for medical trainees, i.e. high suicide rates (the 3rd highest cause of death in this group) related to the stresses of medical training that were not being addressed by medical centers. The above sentence alludes to the publications about the model, confidential, psychiatric evaluation and treatment program but that isn't clear in the above sentence for which references are needed. The references describing the construction of the program and the results over four years are authored by me. Therefore I understand that it is not appropriate for me to add them myself and hope and request that someone else add the appropriate edits.

Background: As a psychiatrist in private practice I served as a volunteer (clinical faculty) teaching psychiatric residents and fellows. In that role I became aware of the limited, public, and inadequate assistance available to medical trainees at all levels in the training facility. It was also well know that medical trainees would not seek help unless it was confidential. I expressed my concern to a member of a local foundation and the next thing I knew I was offered a two year grant, which was renewed for another two years without a request, to develop an effective program. I then obtained permission from the training facility for the project at no cost to the facility. The program, titled "The Mental Health Program for Physicians in Training" was housed off-campus, but nearby, to preserve patient privacy. I never receive any income from the university. The highly successful program became a model other academic medical centers could use. Its design was spelled out in the initial publication. A separate survey of the services provided by training centers around the country had demonstrated the widespread lack of effective treatment programs elsewhere. If appropriate, here is that reference:

Specific Request: Modify the existing statement to read something like the following: "In the 1980s, prior to assuming the APA presidency, Borenstein developed a unique, effective model psychiatric evaluation and treatment program for medical trainees in academic medical centers"

Daniel BorensteinDBBorenstein (talk) 21:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• What I think should be changed:
• Why it should be changed:
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

DBBorenstein (talk) 21:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The wording you have indicated above is clearly of a promotional nature and would be entirely inappropriate for an encyclopaedia. There is no place here for promotion, sorry. Axad12 (talk) 06:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

This was not a promotional effort. The vague sentence already exists. I was trying to clarify what it was referring to and to readily provide references for an effective mental health program for academic medical centers that are seldom available. I want healthy doctors who will impact the lives of thousands of patients and their families. If the altered language isn't acceptable, references are needed even for the exiting statement. DBorenstein 76.95.241.89 (talk) 20:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The phrase "unique, effective" is blatantly promotional and any protestation to the contrary is pointless.

Also, the references you have provided are all non-independent (you wrote them yourself) and are thus inadmissible.

Fortunately there are rules on this website to prevent conflict of interest editors from installing this sort of material on to articles about themselves. Axad12 (talk) 20:51, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That was a suggestion of a possible edit to the sentence so readers would know what was been referred to. I don't mean to be promotional and would be happy to have help in changing the language. If that isn't possible, as I understand it, documentation is still needed with the existing sentence. As to the references, as I explained about my conflict of interest, I don't know how else to provide references for the statement since the entire study was done by me. Again, any suggestions are welcome. I would just like to improve the page in any way possible. I was hoping someone else would add references since I can't.

The page needs some revisions and I really don't know how to accomplish what is being asked.

D Borenstein 76.95.241.89 (talk) 00:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Dr Borenstein,

At present the main issue with the article is the lack of sourcing, specifically sourcing that is independent of the subject.

If independent sourcing cannot be located then the facts in the article are considered unverified and can be removed.

A lack of independent sourcing raises concerns on whether the subject is sufficiently notable for inclusion in Wikipedia and may lead to the article's wholesale deletion.

The policies in this regard can be found here: WP:GNG (general notability guidelines).

Unfortunately the sourcing/notability problem on this article dates back to the creation of the article back in 2018. The article appears to have been authored by a non-independent single purpose account who may have had a conflict of interest or even been paid to create the article. Really that individual should have referred the article to a reviewing process rather than installing the article directly into article mainspace themselves. Had they followed that process it is likely that the sourcing and notability issues would have been highlighted at that time and the article declined for inclusion, at least until those issues had been resolved.

So, as things currently stand there is a need for independent sourcing, to verify facts and to demonstrate notability.

Hopefully these notes are of some assistance. Axad12 (talk) 05:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Axad. All the major medical publications review articles carefully before they publish them in their journals. So am still a bit lost about adding the citations. I get it that I can't add them myself.

I am also a bit upset about the idea that someone was paid to write my articles or to contribute to the page as one of the responses implies. I was surprised to see how many things appeared on the page when I visited it recently and don't exactly know who did the edits. It wasn't me and I didn't pay anyone for them. Originally, years ago, someone who said she was from wikipedia offered to add content but if she did, I certainly didn't pay for it or seek it out. I thought the page was there because all the past presidents of the American Psychiatric Association are shown on pages since there is a link to them on the bottom of the page on which I appear. 76.95.241.89 (talk) 21:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a rather odd state of affairs, as Wikipedia only employs a relatively small number of people and they don't approach individuals and offer to write articles about them (there would just be too many potential subjects). Also, the user who set up the article here doesn't seem to have had any other activity on Wikipedia.

I'm certainly glad to hear that no money changed hands, for if it had then the most likely explanation would probably have been that it was some kind of scam.

I think I must have misinterpreted one of your earlier comments. I think you mentioned a "Wikipedia consultant", or a phrase to that effect, and I assumed that you meant somebody working for a third party (e.g. public relations type of company) - because, as I mentioned above, it certainly wouldn't have been somebody working for Wikipedia.

So, if I have misrepresented the situation in one of my earlier posts then I of course offer my profound apologies. Hopefully you will appreciate why I had reached the conclusion I had. Best wishes, Axad12 (talk) 21:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I was actually contacted by email from someone recently who offered to do all sorts of things for me for a fee. I reported her to Wikipedia and was told it was a well know scamming entity for which many had lost thousands of dollars. As soon as I recognized what it was I cut off all communications with that individual and reported her. I didn't save the emails or I could give you the name of the group. DBBorenstein (talk) 17:41, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Conflict of interest and unpaid editing tags on article

I've taken these two tags off, per discussion here and User talk:Tacyarg#Daniel B Borenstein, as current version of article is neutral in tone. Like-CV tag could perhaps also come off, but will leave that for others. I wonder if we are missing off-line coverage of his research in the 1980s, but don't have any way to track that down. Tacyarg (talk) 05:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

There is off-line coverage in newspapers. I will put the references below. If you feel they are acceptable for citations, I would appreciate your adding them.

March 9, 1984 “Program aims to find, treat stress in MDs early.” American Medical News,

pp 3, 23.

Oct. 25, 1982 “Teaching doctors‑to‑be how to cope.” Daily News, Section 5, front page feature article.

May 25, 1982 “A project to help heal the healers.” Los Angeles Times, Part V, front page feature article. DBBorenstein (talk) 17:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Tacyarg - I have a (poor) online copy of the L.A. Times article if you would like to see it. The AMA discontinued publication of American Medical News years ago and doesn't have an archive, but articles are available in some medical libraries. A reference is requested for the sentence about the research, if this will help. Please let me know. If not, I am not aware of any thing more I can offer. Thanks again for reviewing all of this and continuing my education about Wikipedia. DBBorenstein (talk) 21:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)