Talk:Death of Khaled Mohamed Saeed

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This article was nominated for deletion on 28 January 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Death of Khaled Mohamed Saeed received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Important notice: Prior discussion has determined that the photograph of corpse of Khaled Mohamed Saeed is allowed and will not be removed from this article. Discussion of image should be posted to the subpage Talk:Death of Khaled Mohamed Saeed/Photograph of corpse. Removal of picture without discussion will be reverted. If you find the photograph of corpse of Khaled Mohamed Saeed offensive, it is possible to configure your browser or use your personal Wikipedia settings not to display them, see this.

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Markaberk.

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Infoboxes

What's the deal with the infoboxes? The first one is redundant and pointless. The second isn't meant for articles like this. It's meant for wide-scale attacks on civilians. Not one man beaten to death by police. It should use a regular infobox person. Lara 00:22, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People infoboxes are standard for articles about people. But I do agree about the second infobox. It should just be the image with a caption. Silver seren^C 00:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done, but strongly suspect it will be reverted. – ukexpat (talk) 21:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lead description.

I understand that the circumstances around his death are not confirmed, but is this really all we can say in the lead: "a young Egyptian man who died under disputed circumstances"? Can't we be a little more specific and say:

"A young Egyptian man who died under disputed circumstances after being arrested by Egyptian police. Photos of his disfigured corpse spread throughout online communities and incited outrage over allegations that he was beaten to death by Egyptian security forces. A prominent Facebook group We are all Khaled Said brought attention to his death and contributed to the growing discontent in the weeks leading up to the Egyptian Revolution of 2011."

What would be wrong with addressing those aspects in the lead? Ocaasi (talk) 22:27, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that no one has taken the time to do it yet. And that sounds like a great summary. Go ahead and trade them out. Silver seren^C 22:36, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"a young Egyptian man who died under disputed circumstances"? Disputed or undisputed is irrelevant as the subject matter in its integrity is this young man's brutal killing by the plainclothes policemen that triggered a social wrath leading to the resignation of Hosni Mubarak. "Disputed, alleged" are cautious news reporting terminology. This is not crime or police reporting, this is history Therefore it is not the disputed or undisputed circumstances of the death of Khaled Said, it is the postmortem depiction. The phrase should be corrected as "... a young Egyptian man, arrested and beaten to death by 2 plain clothes Egyptian policemen" Benizmir 22:03 19 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no proof that he was beaten to death and the two detectives were never prosecuted after the trial ended with nothing being done (one of the main things that made people angry). Because there is no legitimate evidence, we cannot say that he was beaten to death because that may not be true and, regardless, there is yet again no conviction to base that statement on. That is why it is labeled disputed, because the police and the citizenry disagree on what happened. I think the details in the article are more than enough for readers to come to their own conclusions without having to specifically state anything. Silver seren^C 22:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I get it now. We need the picture, and not collapsed. Ocaasi (talk) 03:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, anyway, how does one enter any sort of original content into wikipedia? Or is that just against the rules? I've talked to Khaleed's family and friends, and they have a slightly different view on this whole thing, that I personally trust more than the vague stuff your average journalist came up with without ever seeing that part of Alexandria. I could just make a lame-ass webpage and then reference that, but it seems really counterproductive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pnyxtr (talk • contribs) 19:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pnyxtr, and welcome to Wikipedia. Wikipedia articles need to be referenced to sources that are both verifiable (meaning can be checked), and reliable (meaning that there is an expectation that the source is accurate). If you could find such a source reporting these statements they can, and should, be included. But without that we cannot include those statements. I hope this made sense, but pleae do not hesitate to ask if you have further questions. nableezy - 19:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, one of the ways we could use such information is if it came from a primary source. So, if the family started a web page themselves with an explanation of their views and we could confirm that it was an official page, then we could use that. Silver seren^C 22:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Post mortem

What is the purpose of the post mortem picture? I read the discussion about its inclusion, but it does not address the purpose. USchick (talk) 18:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the copyright policy: Use of historic images from press agencies must only be used when the image itself is the subject of commentary rather than the event it depicts (which is the original market role, and is not allowed per policy).

Use of this photo on this page is in direct violation of copyright law, so I'm deleting it. No other article in any other language is using this photo. If you don't respect copyright law, please respect the dead. USchick (talk) 18:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion in the archives was fairly extensive and included several reasons. Although I recommended the image by placed in a collapsable field, I still think it belongs in the article, and can summarize why:

The image of the Saeed exists
The image is accurate
The image portrays the event
The image itself is what was spread around various internet forums, sparking outrage
The image itself has been the subject of discussion, mainly related to its catalyzing effect on protesters
The image demonstrates that claims Saeed's death was an accident are highly unplausible
Wikipedia is not censored
The image is historic
The image has been the subject of commentary: [1] [2] [3]

The claim that the image has not been the subject of commentary, when its role in galvanizing protesters through online media has been well noted, just doesn't hold up. Ocaasi (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The photo is a direct violation of copyright. Please read the policy. In order to avert an edit war, I have started a mediation dispute here Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2011-03-14/Death of Khaled Mohamed Saeed USchick (talk) 19:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mediation exists for seemingly intractable content disputes. This just happened today, so I doubt we're there yet. More importantly, if this is a copyright issue, then Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions is the place to post it. We need expert advice from those familiar with Fair Use, not a random but helpful third party. Ocaasi (talk) 19:57, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I posted it here Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2011 March 14 per your suggestion. Maybe were're not in agreement on what the policy means: "when the image itself is the subject of commentary" is acceptable use. In this article, the image is used to describe "the event it depicts," which is in direct violation of copyright. Would you be willing to remove the image until this dispute is resolved please? USchick (talk) 20:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I'll remove with the chance that it is a copyright violation. It'd be helpful if others let that stand while we figure out the merits of the copyright issue. Once that is settled, assuming we can justify using the image, I do expect to put it back if/while we debate its appropriateness on other grounds. Ocaasi (talk) 20:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you VERY MUCH! :-) USchick (talk) 20:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can follow the discussion here Wikipedia:Non-free content review USchick (talk) 00:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Facebook page

File:Khaled Saeed by Kimo Nour.jpg

A poster of "Khaled Mohamed Saeed"

Maybe we should have a section about the facebook page "We are all khaled Saeed" in the article. Anyone wants to take a crack at it? I found this image that can go nicely with the section. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 01:41, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's more than enough sources to turn the facebook page/protest group into an article of its own. Silver seren^C 01:56, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Put a section in, with the image. Image is great. A little big, but more text will fill out the spacing. Ocaasi ^c 04:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Investigation and trial of the police officers

Ocaasi asked me before if any other wikipedia projects had any decent pages about the trail and I found one written in Egyptian arabic here. It deals with the trail from June 2010 until November 2010. Hope it helps. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 05:41, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Egypt Uprising solidarity Melbourne protest, 4 February 2011.png nominated for deletion

See commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Egypt Uprising solidarity Melbourne protest, 4 February 2011.png. Dcoetzee 02:14, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Khaled Mohamed Saeed's mother visiting his grave.jpg nominated for deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Khaled Mohamed Saeed's mother visiting his grave.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011 What should I do?
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Trial of police officers

The article states that the court would announce a verdict on June 30 (yesterday). Did that happen and what was it?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 23:55, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No idea. Bluh, I have like ten articles i'm working on at the moment. There's too much to do. But I guess I can take a second to run a search for the info. *quick Google news search and then Egyptian Google news search* Nope, i'm not finding anything at all. Hmm...well, it's only been a day. Give it some time. Silver seren^C 00:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Found it. Sorry about that...I didn't find it initially and was posing the question to Arabic speakers (assuming it would be in their sources first). Result: delayed until September. Thanks for looking SilverSeren. :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 00:06, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

*facepalms* Of course, I should have looked under the Anglicized version of his name. Duh! Well, i'm glad you thought to do that. :3 Silver seren^C 00:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Khaled Mohamed Saeed → Murder of Khaled Mohamed Saeed – Relisted Vegaswikian (talk) 19:26, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It seems a given that the death is a murder even though the trial has not concluded. Reliable sources are calling it that.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 00:49, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose Wikipedia never uses murder of it uses death of.-Breawycker (talk to me!) 14:44, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure about that? Is there a place where that is written?

...and there are many more with that naming convention.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 16:18, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support We go by what the reliable sources say, not our opinion of what it should be, and if the sources are calling it a murder, then that's what we should be calling it as well. Silver seren^C 22:13, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Other reliable sources say death e.g. Associated Press, Al Jazeera. Tassedethe (talk) 06:03, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You've offered two (one of which ridicules the assertion that he choked on hash) where I have offered five sources calling it a murder.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 06:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually you only provide 4, refs 3 and 5 are the same text. It may ridicule the assertion but it still refers to it as death, murder isn't even mentioned. Here's a 3rd ref: Amnesty International. Again calls it death, no mention of murder. Tassedethe (talk) 12:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. To quote the nom, "even though the trial has not concluded". Wait until the trial has concluded and if it is judged to be murder, then rename the article. To do so beforehand would violate WP:NPOV. Jenks24 (talk) 06:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per Jenks24 -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 07:18, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=104936, http://www.newsweek.com/2011/01/22/the-revolution-comes-to-egypt.html or similar. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:09, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Links

>> Egypt police get 10 years for killing blogger (Lihaas (talk) 19:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)).[reply]

Unreferenced

Moving from article. This edit addresses the alleged role of a named 'facebook page creator' without providing a source. To protecting living persons, I have removed the individual's name until a reliable source can be provided. Note that <ref name=WAAKS/> was included but no such reference exists.

On January 27 2011, the administrator of the webpage, Wael Ghonim was arrested for 12 days and the internet was shut temporarily but later restored. Ghonim wanted to remain anonymous but could not avoid Egyptian security forces. It later became apparent that the page was originally created by an Egyptian political activist named REMOVED. Both administrators received the created for the creation of the site. Under the anonymous name ‘el shaheed’ (‘the martyr’), they were able to post and moderate the Arabic Facebook page. The involvement of REMOVED in the creation of this page caused great controversy because he was a member of the January 25 coalition as well as the author of an article on the Muslim Brotherhood english website titled, "Mastermind Behind Egypt Uprising" This controvery revealed that REMOVED previously had involvement with the Muslim brotherhood.

--Jake Ocaasi^{t | c} 12:30, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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