Talk:Dominant seventh chord

Unclear sentence

This sentence

"... the resulting chord, containing the four notes GBDF and called G7, is a major triad, GBD, with a dominant seventh, F."

uses the term "a dominant seventh" to describe a note (F), but doesn't define it. Does it mean a minor seventh (which is what F actually is in the key of G)? I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a "dominant seventh" as a term for a note or an interval. "Dominant seventh" is a kind of chord, not a kind of note.

While I'm here, there's a comment "see below" at the bottom of this page, but there is nothing below to see! GreenAsJade (talk) 02:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The intervalic identity of that note against that root is "minor seventh". The term "dominant seventh" should be used to describe a chord, not a member of a chord. 199.189.86.27 (talk) 01:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed to what? Those two remarks both seem to have been changed six or seven years ago. There is neither any erroneoud description of an interval as a "dominant seventh", nor any "see below" note. What do you suggest should be changed?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:50, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Update: The offending sentence no longer appears. However, after carefully describing the dominant chord as including a minor seventh, the lede goes on to say:

"… In this chord, F is a minor seventh above G and is also called the dominant seventh with respect to G."

Says who? There's no inline reference cited for this assertion. Accordingly, I'm tagging it with a "citation needed" template. Notably, in the 34 uses of the phrase "dominant seventh" in the article, only this one applies it to a scale degree rather than to a chord. Personally, I think that's wrong: the proper name for the flat — or flattened — seventh degree of any scale is a "minor seventh". Perhaps there are musicians whose usage disagrees? If so, we need an authoritative reference for such a usage. --yoyo (talk) 00:47, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Something in the article is confusing about its definition of 'dominant seventh' chord. Some sources just define the symbol C7 (or dominant seventh in C major) around building a chord based on the root triad of C major scale (ie. C-E-G), and then add a minor/flatted seventh note of the C major scale (which is B-flat). So the dominant seventh chord in C is C-E-G-Bflat. The opening details in the article jumps straight to the words 'the scale', instead of writing 'some particular scale'. So, for example, on the circle of fifths, we can see that G is the fifth note of C major. So basically, another way to look at it - is to take the next door neighbour of 'G' (on the circle of fifths, where they teach things like G 'resolves' to C), which is C major, and then take the fifth degree of C major, which is just 'G' again, and build the triad from that fifth degree note, ie. G-B-D. And then (relative to G major scale) take the seventh note of the G major scale, which is F#, and then make the interval (ie. span between the root note G and the F#) a 'minor' interval instead of major one, leading to F. So the chord that resulted from the exercise (which began in 'C' major scale) is G-B-D-F, and they have to give it a name, and call it G7, or 'G dominant seventh'. The other technique of just reading the symbol (eg. G7) and forming the chord around G major scale root triad (G-B-D) plus a flatted seventh in G major scale ---- is a nice shortcut rule-of-thumb, which works. KorgBoy (talk) 17:20, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I have removed the offending statement calling the scale degree "dominant seventh". YetiTruther (talk) 11:20, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Removed

I took out this sentence:

"It is called dominant because such a position in the scale dominates the Western musical ear for historical reasons of taste."

First of all, this would be a sentence about the "dominant fifth" (this is what it was originally referring to). That thing is a scale degree, and if the sentence is true, it should be placed on the page describing that scale degree.

However, there's nothing I can see that backs up a claim that the "fifth position in the scale dominates the western musical ear", indeed it's not even clear what this means! GreenAsJade (talk) 02:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

More changes: I found that there _is_ a page describing the dominant scale degree, so I put in a link to that instead of the redlink that was previously there.

I went and looked on this page, and there is nothing there backing up the claim (above) about why it is called "dominant" either... GreenAsJade (talk) 02:44, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the questions raised are to the point, and a chord consisting of GBDF is only a "dominant 7th chord" in a tonal context of C major, because it is a 7th chord built on the 5th degree of the C scale, which is a G. The word "dominant" refers to the scale degree 5. There's no such thing as a "dominant 7th" interval. I think this entire encyclopedia article is superfluous, since the lookup could simply say "A seventh chord built on the fifth or dominant note of a musical scale". Then each of "seventh chord", "dominant", and "musical scale" could be a link to the appropriate article.

70.245.226.250 (talk) 14:15, 15 August 2009 (UTC)JOF

Unreferenced

What needs to be cited? Why? How? Hyacinth (talk) 06:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Considering the bad information one frequently finds on the internet (and sadly this is typical in regards music theory) citation of reliable sources is a necessity, even being beyond mere desirability... even for Dominant seventh chords. Gingermint (talk) 03:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Specifically? Hyacinth (talk) 09:05, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

b flat

The section that explains the naming of the chord makes no sense at all. The C7 chord contains a b flat but nowhere in the passage that explains the naming is B flat mentioned. How is the reader to understand? Am I missing something? Jubeidono (talk) 17:08, 21 June 2011 (UTC).

Update: This problem seems to have disappeared due to subsequent revisions. The lede now states that:

"Dominant seventh chords are often built on the fifth scale degree (or dominant) of a key."

which is an implicit explanation of why it's called a "dominant seventh". At present, no other "section that explains the naming" appears in the article. Nor is the structure of the C7 chord explicitly mentioned until the § Dominant seventh chord table section.

Prime limits

The phrase ..."36:45:54:61, found on V, used in 5-limit just tunings and scales" makes no sense. 61 is a prime number and clearly not within the 5-limit. 69.7.77.20 (talk) 18:09, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

61 should have been 64. Hyacinth (talk) 22:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thesis

• A dominant seventh chord is a chord (simultaneous collection of notes) composed of a root, major third, perfect fifth, and minor seventh or a chord which fulfills the function of that chord.

1. Function
2. History
3. Voice leading/Resolution

I propose the above as a draft thesis statement and structure for the article. Hyacinth (talk) 05:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Per the above I have added a Function section and moved content under it. Hyacinth (talk) 06:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Subdominant dominant seventh

• "However, the 'dominant' seventh is used on notes other than the dominant, such as the subdominant.[citation needed]"

The above sentence from the article is marked with a citation needed template despite the fact that later in the article it is described that, "Chuck Berry's Rock And Roll Music uses the dominant seventh on I, IV, and V.[Stephenson (2002), p.75.]" for example. Hyacinth (talk) 20:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

What song to be exact?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

• Examine this statement:

You're writing in the key of C major. Somewhere in the piece you're using an F7 chord. What does this indicate?? We know that F7 is not the IV chord in the key of C major; Fmaj7 is. This can be shown by comparing the notes:

• C major scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
• F7 chord: F-A-C-E♭

The chord doesn't belong to the scale, and thus indicates a modulation. If this is not necessarily true, please explain why. Georgia guy (talk) 00:05, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean: "What song to be exact??"

Do you have a citation for the assertions that the chord doesn't belong in the scale and that it implies a modulation? Hyacinth (talk) 11:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

More importantly, despite any ideas you may have about scales and modulation, the very fact of its use would seem the dispel any doubts about it not being used. On the other hand, if people think its important I imagine a (direct at all) source could be found for the idea of IV7. See: Major scale#Major system in popular music, Minor scale#Natural-minor system, inflection (music), accidental (music). Hyacinth (talk) 11:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The F7 chord doesn't belong in the C major scale. If you know that the chord has an E♭, this should make sense to you. Georgia guy (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Now, to answer the question What do you mean: "What song to be exact??" you must notice the phrase "Chuck Berry's Rock and Roll Music". This means the rock music written by Chuck Berry. What specific song?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Capitalization is your first hint, the link is your second. Hyacinth (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC

This must mean a song called Rock and Roll Music. But how does this show that the use of the F7 chord in a song in C major doesn't necessarily indicate a modulation to B♭ major?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

B♭ is an assumption, just like modulation is. Hyacinth (talk) 22:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

How is this assumption relevant to the article? The song still uses dominant sevenths regardless. Hyacinth (talk) 22:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

What other assumptions can there be?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

It's like sitting in your car and turning the wheel left. It may seem like a pretty safe assumption that your car will turn left. However, is your car on? Are you pressing the gas? Are you in forward or reverse?

Is this article titled "Modulation (music)"? Hyacinth (talk) 00:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

No, but the article needs info on why a dominant seventh chord on the subdominant isn't necessarily a modulation. Georgia guy (talk) 00:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Another concept to rattle your Copernican universe: mode mixture. Hyacinth (talk) 23:29, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Specifically, a song in C major can borrow chords from C minor, and the C melodic minor scale has both the F7 and G7 chords. Georgia guy (talk) 01:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I can accept that a dominant seventh chord is a major triad with a minor seventh added. I don't think the opposite is necessarily true. A G7 chord (major 3rd, minor 7th) occurring in the key of Am is not a dominant seventh. Likewise, an F7 chord (major 3rd, minor 7th) in C is also not a dominant seventh. The article says -- correctly, in my view -- that the roman numeral notation is V7. The article then says, "the 'dominant' seventh is used on notes other than the dominant, such as the subdominant" and gives examples such as Chuck Berry's Rock and Roll Music. These statements are in conflict. --12.32.87.3 (talk) 17:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Hard to read image

The image at is too hard to read; it uses a note with lots of ledger lines. Please re-create it up an octave. Georgia guy (talk) 15:50, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Barbershop References

This whole paragraph is begging for references. I'm an active barbershop singer, so I know that most of these statements are true, but they need to be referenced. Since this is mostly folk knowledge I'm not sure where and how to cite some of these statements. Composerjude (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2015 (UTC)