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Donald Trump Religion

FAILED
Overwhelming consensus to identify him as a Presbyterian pbp 00:20, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Based on this: http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-religion-of-trump/article/2000601 and many other empirical evidence and sources, it seems that his religion should be removed from the infobox. Trump is not a religious person, he hasn't been to church in ages, so the religion should not be in the infobox. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:40, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

  • Well, it's going to take a lot more than a "holier than thou" attack piece to overturn his stated position on his religion. Religion is deeply personal and subjective. It not objective like buying a gym membership where you pay the price and get a keycard. Talk to SageGreenRider 21:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Do you have references from reliable sources for this claim, ShadowDragon? In particular, I would be interested in seeing references for time before his presidential bid. I can certainly believe he may have stepped up public church attendance in order to seem religious to his base and the dedicated christian voting block, but I'm curious about his activities prior to having to put on a more public face in regards to this. Centerone (talk) 00:36, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
@Centerone, given BLP, the burden of proof is for you to prove otherwise. And given the subjectivity I mention above, I think that's impossible. Talk to SageGreenRider 00:55, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
BTW, sad person that I am, I was rereading Template:Infobox person and it says that the religion parameter should be a major one like Christianity and the denomination parameter should be set to Presbyterian or whatever. And that there should be a cite in the body. Not a fan of the guy but he should get a fair whack here... Talk to SageGreenRider 00:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
@SageGreenRiderDon't be silly. ShadowDragon343 made a very clear statement of a simple bit of information. I was simply asking for a reference, a clarification. The 'burden of proof' isn't on me in this case, I'm simply asking how he knows and if there are any good references for this information. Centerone (talk) 04:29, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I incorrectly inferred that you were going down the "remove" route. (The now irrelevant point I was trying to make was that no number of cites about attendance rate over time could prove a 'flag of convenience'.)Talk to SageGreenRider 11:16, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Here are the criteria that determine whether an individual's religion should be listed in the infobox, as opposed to the body of the article:
From WP:BLPCAT: "Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources" ... "These principles apply equally to lists, navigation templates, and Infobox statements".
From WP:CAT/R: "Categories regarding religious beliefs or lack of such beliefs of a living person should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief in question (see WP:BLPCAT), either through direct speech or through actions like serving in an official clerical position for the religion."
From WP:UNDUE: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources" ... "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements" ... "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public". Note that the infobox and the lead are generally considered to be examples of prominent placement.
I have no preconceived opinion on this issue. I just want to see citations to reliable sources that satisfy the above criteria.
I would also note that Sir Joseph's behavior while discussing religion in the infobox of another US presidential candidate at Talk:Bernie Sanders/Archive 13#Request for comments -- religion in infobox led to a six-month topic ban. See Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/Log/2016 and the discussion linked from that entry. I am purposely not going to comment further other than noting that the topic ban exists because it would not be fair (Sir Joseph could be accused of violating his topic ban if he replies), and I advise others to also stay silent on the subject of the topic ban. The reason I am bringing this up here is to request that everyone dial down the usual amount of aggression associated with political article talk pages to avoid similar problems in this discussion. That being said, The criteria implied at the start of this section (how religious someone is) is not considered to be a criteria for or against placement of religion in the infobox. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:46, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Praying together for political points is not "publically self-identified." He does not go to church, does not follow his religious teachings and religion is not a part of his life. While he may be a member of that religion, he is not a religious person and it should not be in the infobox. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:32, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • The link I provided goes to a Guardian article reporting on the then upcoming GOP debate on CNN on October 25, 2015. The article reports Trump as saying during a pre-debate interview, "I am a Presbyterian." Talk to SageGreenRider 18:32, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • My apologies. I somehow missed that when I read it. I agree that the self identification criteria has been met. Sorry about that. So, do we have sources that say that his being a Presbyterian is relevant to his public life or notability, according to reliable published sources? The answer is clearly no for notability (he isn't notable for being a Presbyterian) but I can see both sides to the "relevant to his public life" question. I think that the core question is whether claiming that religion is relevant to the public life of every candidate means that we should always include it in the infobox as opposed to the body of the article. Thoughts? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
The discussion of Trump's religion and Evangelical support within the media, as sources mentioned here have shown, definitely demonstrate the importance and relevance of religion in the public life of this presidential candidate, and similar sources can be found for others. Therefore I would argue we include it. SamWilson989 (talk) 19:41, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
That does seem like a compelling argument. I would assume that he would get a lot less Evangelical support if he wasn't a member of a Christian church. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
No problem, @Guy Macon. As to the relevance, the book I cited above Religion in the Oval Office says "Throughout American history many citizens have viewed strong faith as an asset, if not a requirement, for politicians, especially presidents." So clearly Trump's religion is relevant. And yes, the WP:BLPCAT principles apply to the infobox: These principles apply equally to lists, navigation templates, and Infobox statements.Talk to SageGreenRider 19:54, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
I am leaning towards keep based on the argument that Trump has significant support from evangelicals. I am having trouble with the keep argument that says that we have to keep religion in the infobox for all US candidates because religion is always "relevant to their public life or notability". --Guy Macon (talk) 23:22, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • The only issue here is this particular case. I'm not proposing a global ruling. I agree that other articles should be discussed on their talk pages as needed and on a case-by-case basis. I would point out that religion comes up particularly strongly in Presidential/Vice-Presidential races (JFK's catholicism, Joe Lieberman's observance of the Jewish sabbath, Mitt Romney's Mormonism, many others...) It's less important in lower offices. Talk to SageGreenRider 12:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose Ugh. I also took part in the discussion about religion on the Bernie Sanders talk page, and it was a headache to say the least. (I see now that the "Religion" field has since been removed from his infobox.) Presbyterianism is Trump's self-proclaimed religion. Leave it in. I will say no more on the subject. Good luck to the rest of you.Kerdooskis (talk) 21:00, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks! FWIW I think the Sanders case is much more nuanced than this one simply because Sanders' own statements are more nuanced: He seems to claim a Jewish heritage with pantheistic/humanist overtones IMHO. Talk to SageGreenRider 21:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Sanders failed the "self-identified through direct speech" criteria, and the evidence for meeting the "relevant to their public life or notability" criteria was very, very weak. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose: I listed the criteria for inclusion above, and in the responses every criteria was supported by multiple high-quality sources. Meanwhile, the OP listed a made-up criteria foe inclusion which is not found in any Wikipedia policy or guideline. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per Guy Macon. SamWilson989 (talk) 21:33, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose here and in Bernie Sanders. If somebody says they are of a certain religion, it's not for us to judge whether or not he is an "authentic" believer, even if there were objective standards for such things. I find this notion offensive. Gamaliel (talk) 21:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I clearly listed the criteria that determine whether an individual's religion should be listed in the infobox. Why are you bringing up another, made-up criteria which exists in no Wikipedia policy or guideline? Nobody asserted that anyone should judge whether or not anyone is an "authentic" believer. That is a straw man argument. Please don't pretend that someone made that easily-refuted argument when nobody actually made it. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Your point, of course, being that you refuse[1], [2] to accept the fact that on the Bernie Sanders page religion was removed from the infobox because he did not meet the criteria I listed above, and you refuse to accept the fact that on the Donald Trump page religion was kept in the infobox because he did meet the criteria I listed above. Instead you remain convinced against all evidence that the Wikipedia community made those two decisions solely because Sanders is Jewish. And you managed to "prove your point" without violating your topic ban! It's actually an interesting theory, but a quick look at List of Jewish members of the United States Congress(starting at the bottom) clearly shows that when Jewish politicians meet our criteria for inclusion, religion is included in the infobox. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose "I am a Presbyterian" meets BLPCAT requirements for self-identification. The infobox is a summary of information in the article - not a section for analysis, interpretation, and BLP violating conjecture. -- Callinus (talk) 07:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - If he identifies himself as a "Presbyterian" then we should trust him and add/leave it, As noted above we shouldn't really be judging and questioning him ..... –Davey2010Talk 13:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - A no-brainer, explicit self-identification is the only criterion, which is satisfied. It's for others to question the authenticity/depth/sincerity of his religious identification. Pincrete (talk) 22:07, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Call for snow close

Call for snow close by any uninvolved editor per WP:SNOW. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:53, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed merge with Short-Fingered Vulgarian

Clear consensus to not merge here. Any future discussion can take place at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Short-Fingered_Vulgarian. ~Awilley (talk) 04:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There are plenty of sources, but very little of substance that could not easily be covered in 2-3 sentences in the main bio. Alternatively, it could just be deleted under WP:NOTSCANDAL. - MrX 03:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

  • Merge or delete It is important enough to mention in this article, but the standalone article is a smorgasbord of what Wikipedia is WP:NOT. Not sure if I think it's a valid redirect for any reason. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment Why is the merge tag being removed? The Short-Fingered Vulgarian article was specifically created about Trump. A merger has been proposed. Per WP:MERGEPROP a tag should be placed on the target article. Why is this being removed contrary to policy and precedent? Perhaps @Floquenbeam: can explain the double standards? AusLondonder (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
    • We are not going to have an article about a public figure with an extraordinarily prominent tag at the top tying him to the insult "Short Fingered Vulgarian". I'm only removing the tag, I'm not making any comment about the merge itself. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:09, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
No credible reason exists for uniquely removing the tag contrary to both the spirit and letter of policy. You are making editors less aware of the proposal. AusLondonder (talk) 22:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
WP:BLP is the credible reason, duh. IHTS (talk) 23:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
There is the BLP issue that clearly overrides procedural issues however, this is what the WikiProject has concluded from the various consensus discussions and merge articles we have;

"A merge is listed once a tag is placed on the article, such as {{Merge}} or {{Merge to}}. Removing the tag, delists the article. Never remove a proposed merge tag unless you are intending to delist the article and only do so when all issues have been addressed. If the proposer of the merge did not start a discussion for the merge, and it is not obvious why the articles should be merged, it is acceptable to remove the tags. If the reason for the merge is obvious, you can either merge the articles boldly, or start a new discussion."

For this proposal a tag was placed to list the articles for merge. Someone else removed the tag intending to de-list it. It is acceptable for any editor to object to the merge for any reason but as long as they have addressed the issues involved the tag can be removed. The justification for removal was;

Editing and merging during disputes

"Editors should not merge content during an AFD. AfD participants should not work "around" consensus by beginning a merge process on their own, before discussion. While preservation of content is a good consideration, copying may be contentious and may create additional steps and administrative work if undoing any copying is necessary. Such a merge also causes an attribution dependency breakage between articles that may require the merging of article history that would be lost if the source page is deleted. AFD participants may offer proposals and negotiate with the other participants during the discussion. If needed, editors may ask the closing admin how to rescue the content or what additional steps that need to be taken."
It was really all within the procedure. The actual merge discussion should be closed as there is a current AFD for the article that was suggested to be merged. It is there that any merge suggestions should be made and is the consensus discussion that will determine the outcome.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:03, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed selective merge of only one sentence from Short-Fingered Vulgarian

Proposed selective merge of only one sentence from Short-Fingered Vulgarian: "Short-fingered Vulgarian is a phrase that originated in Spy Magazine in the 1980s as a description of Donald Trump.[1]"

References

  1. ^ "Donald Trump Still Tormented By 'Spy' Magazine Founders : NPR". NPR.org. 7 March 2016. Retrieved 2 April 2016.
QuackGuru (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Middle initial in header to infobox

Article name follows wp:Common name however the infobox header follows journalists' guidelines to follow when possible a subject's own generally preffered form of full-name address such as in their signature. See Template:Infobox person: " If middle initials are specified (or implied) by the lead of the article, and are not specified separately in the birth_name field, include them here."--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 17:27, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

"Proposed ban on Muslims entering the U.S." subsection

The subsection in the article's 2016 election section seems unnecessary, as this is not the only major point Donald Trump has made during his candidacy. I propose this content is merged into the section entitled "Presidential campaign, 2016", as a separate paragraph, as none of Donald Trump's other statements during the campaign have been highlighted in the article as this one has. Sheepythemouse (talk) 22:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree. It doesn't need its own section.- MrX 22:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Third. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:52, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
It's a political position, doesn't need it's own section outside the page on his political positions, paragraph is okay.ShadowDragon343 (talk) 04:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Agreed per above. MB298 (talk) 02:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
It is the one of the most (if not the most) notable point in his campaign or agenda, so it does merit a separate section. In many places outside the US, Trump is known solely for his proposed temporary ban on Muslims entering the US. --Engineering Guy (talk) 14:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Image

@Stemoc: @Ihardlythinkso: @AdventurousSquirrel: @William S. Saturn: I'm notifying you because you were involved in the most recent discussion of this sort. Personally, I believe the current image is fine (but not great) however the issue was brought to my attention by Stemoc, who recently changed the current image to a retouched version of the same one. So, a discussion ought to be held. MB298 (talk) 00:19, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

please make any further votes from the six below. MB298 (talk) 02:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please feel free to add more as you see fit.

  • Image #1: The current infobox image, August 2015
    Image #1: The current infobox image, August 2015
  • Image #2: Another version of the current image, August 2015
    Image #2: Another version of the current image, August 2015
  • Image #3: Previously used in the infobox, March 2015
    Image #3: Previously used in the infobox, March 2015
  • Image #4: Las Vegas, February 2016
    Image #4: Las Vegas, February 2016
  • Image #5: Washington D.C., February 2011
    Image #5: Washington D.C., February 2011
  • Image#6: close up of Image#5
    Image#6: close up of Image#5
  • Image #7: May 2014
    Image #7: May 2014
  • Image #8: Trump at CPAC
    Image #8: Trump at CPAC
  • Image #9: Nevada, February 2016
    Image #9: Nevada, February 2016
  • Image #10: Edited version of the current
    Image #10: Edited version of the current
  • Image #11: Signing GOP pledge at Trump Tower, 2015
    Image #11: Signing GOP pledge at Trump Tower, 2015
  • Image #12; April 2015 at Marine Corps event
    Image #12; April 2015 at Marine Corps event
  • Image #13; January 2016 in Ames, Iowa
    Image #13; January 2016 in Ames, Iowa
  • Image #14; September 2015
    Image #14; September 2015
  • Image #15; March 2013
    Image #15; March 2013
  • Image #16; May 2015
    Image #16; May 2015
  • Image #17; February 2011
    Image #17; February 2011
  • Image #18; January 2016
    Image #18; January 2016
  • Image #19; January 2016
    Image #19; January 2016
  • Image #20; Edited version of the current
    Image #20; Edited version of the current
  • Image #21: Nevada, February 2016
    Image #21: Nevada, February 2016
  • I added Image 8 for consideration which I happen to like. My second choice is Image #7. Doorzki (talk) 04:47, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
  • The main issue with 5, 6 and 8 is that they are from 2011, thats 5 years ago and for someone who has been in the limelight for the last 5 years, its not good..It ok to use older images of people who rarely make public appearance but for someone like Trump, surely, its best if we limit it to 2014 at the very least? anyways i added 9 because its one of the few images which depicts his 'original skin color' (lol) [pinkish face, yellow hair].. most of his images, its usually orange face, yellow hair..I recommend Image 3 and MrX, Image 2 can be fixed, thats the good thing about it because its of a higher quality to Image 1 which cannot be fixed because touching it might make it worse....--Stemoc 05:37, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
    They can all be fixed to a degree, but the fixing should always start with the original image, not a copy of copy. The main problem with #1 is the harsh lighting, soft focus, and over saturation. The image can be improved somewhat by starting with a calibrated display, and then reducing saturation, increasing overall luma slightly, increasing shadow levels, and decreasing magenta levels slightly. Unfortunately, Mr. Trump has an unusual complexion and speaking events frequently have harsh lighting. I saw an interview of on CNN where it looked like he had orange skin but his eye sockets and lips were bluish-purple.- MrX 12:06, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment #10 now looks best to me tonality-wise, and I don't mind the crop, but why was the resolution reduced? This makes it nearly impossible to use in print.- MrX 14:09, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
I did it several months ago. Admittedly, I'm not a very good image editor so I'm not sure what caused the resolution reduction.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Second choice is #1.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #1. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:18, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
  • As the creator of this discussion, I support Image #7. Image #1 should continue to be used on the election pages and in the templates. MB298 (talk) 23:21, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #1. There are others that are more flattering, but it is fairly current, and I don't think I can say with any degree of confidence that any other photo is objectively better or more true-to-life than Image #1. I don't think that we need to concern ourselves too much with making the color his skin more "average" or "normal", because I think he's known for genuinely having a markedly orange-ish hue in real life. If there's some evidence that the color displays more orange than it should, then certainly we should attempt to fix it. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 06:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #13 - shows subject in a comparatively flattering light (smiling, shows upper body), very recent. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:03, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Are you serious? That image is awful. His face is bright red, he has a strange expression on his face because he's in the middle of speech, his eyes are only slightly open, and he's looking off to the side.--William S. Saturn (talk) 07:10, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm being asked to compare a number of images of Donald Trump. They may not be nice pictures individually, but I think #13 is better than the other options. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
You picked the worst possible option. --William S. Saturn (talk) 07:20, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I think you picked one of the worst, William. Image #13 is standard for Wikipedia.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
It is not standard to use a very unflattering image of a subject. Image #13 is very unflattering and objectively the worst of the options above for reasons stated above and below.--William S. Saturn (talk) 18:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support image #5 - this is the best available option. It should not matter that it is 2011. Why insist on always using the most recent photo rather than the best photo? If we did this throughout history (presuming photography has existed forever), the lead image for most bios would show the subject in a geriatric state. Hillary Clinton currently uses a photo from 2009 because that is the best available option. That is all that should be considered. Images #4, #9, #13 are completely unacceptable because of the irregular expression on the subject's face. Image #12 is unacceptable because the clothing item shown (bow tie) is not a common feature of the subject's attire. I see merit in all the others but I strongly believe Image #5 is the best.--William S. Saturn (talk) 07:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Please try to be objective. Image #5 is objectively much older, and the subject's mouth is objectively closed and downturned, which is the opposite of a smile. And you already acknowledged that image #5 looks pompous and smug.[3] I don't think top images are a good venue for making a candidate look bad; if the candidate is bad then the facts stated in the text can adequately reveal that badness. Everyone looks bad in one image or another; see HRC image at right, for example. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:19, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
You're being dishonest by taking what I said about the image in a previous discussion out of context. I don't believe you're being objective. Any reasonable observer can see that Image #5 is not the opposite of a smile. It is a neutral expression. On the other hand, objectively, Image #13 shows the subject objectively with an open mouth in the middle of speech, objectively with a complexion redder than any other image above, and objectively with his eyes slanted and looking off to the side. I ask that you take your own advice and stop trying to place the objectively worst photo available in the infobox for candidates you do not like. --William S. Saturn (talk) 17:59, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Number 5 is a very flattering photo, with the exception the shadow over his black X-Files eyes that become more unsettling the more I look at them, and I'm not sure it's the most true-to-life, which I think should be the intent of a photo used here. This is, of course, pretty subjective. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 05:33, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #1.CFredkin (talk) 15:45, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #5 - Has the most neutral and professional look of all the selections. Image#6 as second choice.--Rollins83 (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #17, which in my opinion has better quality appearance-wise. He also looks proud in that one - not really smiling as such, but it almost looks as if he is. Image 9 made me laugh - he does not look particularly happy within that one! I do, however, support 1 as my second choice. --Ches (talk) 20:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support image #14, because his expression is neutral and it's a recent photo. I realize that the exact same thing could be said about #1 (and the edited versions of it), but I prefer #14 because he is looking towards the camera more so than he is in #1. However, #1 (or any of the edits of it) would be my second choice, for the reasons I stated in my first sentence. --A guy saved by Jesus (talk) 05:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #1 -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #15 - Though not perfect, it at least shows Trump in a favorable light, smiling, and not too close up. There are some images included above that are awful i.e. crooked tie, terrible facial expression, caught off guard, etc. #15 at least has decent lighting and quality. Meatsgains (talk) 01:48, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I think Image #1 is a bad choice, because apparently he looks so fierce, plus with a microphone in the foreground makes him look unprofessional. #2, #9, #11, #14, #16, #20 not good choices either, Support #18, neutral on the rest. It's a disgrace, other delegates such as Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz have more photogenic poses, complete with a formal pose to use as lead images in Republican Party presidential primaries, 2016. What a shame, we have so many other more decent pictures to select from Commons when we have to stick with a picture of Trump looking like a monster just because of "Consensus deadlock". It seems to me than Consensus is leading us to make a worse decision compared to us using simple common senses to see which picture is more formal or photogenic. Mr Tan (talk) 08:43, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
In #10 the microphone has been removed. In #18 his eyes are nearly closed so that will never get consensus. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 11:22, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Then anything goes. I can propose #19. #1 is simply won't do, because that picture of him is simply too fierce. I'm comfortable with any picture that shows him with at least a smile:) I'm really wondering for those who choose #1, frankly this shows a perversion of plain common sense. Just go and take a look at Republican Party presidential primaries, 2016, all other candidates have smiles on their faces. I don't think that my argument is in anyway unreasonable. Mr Tan (talk) 13:49, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
  • TRAINWRECK —Godsy(TALKCONT) 20:20, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #1. Agree w/ user MB298's comment when he opened this new discussion: "I believe the current image is fine (but not great)". (I stated the same in the previous discussion when preferring #15 or #17. Some of the new photo additions are interesting [#8, #11, #16], but any/all have their own drawback[s].) Again re image #1, it's misleading to remove the mic or spin the orig since either/both those modifications remove orig meaningful context (Trump listening to a person's comment/question prior to responding). I understand the impulse to "make a photo better" but there are negative unintended consequences in this case. Changing color saturation/density/focus/etc. is fine as those mods don't mess w/ said orig context. IHTS (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Godsy: I've narrowed it down to the top six images. I don't really have any personal favorite anymore. MB298 (talk) 16:42, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

  • Image #1: The current infobox image, August 2015
    Image #1: The current infobox image, August 2015
  • Image #5: Washington D.C., February 2011
    Image #5: Washington D.C., February 2011
  • Image #7: May 2014
    Image #7: May 2014
  • Image #13; January 2016 in Ames, Iowa
    Image #13; January 2016 in Ames, Iowa
  • Image #17; February 2011
    Image #17; February 2011
  • Image #20; Edited version of the current
    Image #20; Edited version of the current
  • Comment Honestly, this is a fruitless discussion, and any picture, save for the edited ones, would be okay. Picking out a picture that looked "flattering" for Trump would indicate a bias, as would picking out a picture that looked "unflattering". The current picture, Image #1, suits him well, and does not portray him in an overly positive or negative light.
  • Support Image #9 Note that many above posters justify their choice because the image is "flattering," "fierce," "happen to like," less "pompous and smug," etc. I support image #9 because it suitably reflects the candidate for lay-readers, and would sit well both in the minds of his supporters and his detractors. It is neither flattering nor unflattering. While we have a responsibility to portray this figure in a respectable way, I don't think we are in a position to decide what a "flattering" picture would look like in this case. And yes, this is a fruitless discussion. Would somebody in their right minds please close it? Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 11:09, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support #1 This image is easily the most flattering, and most representative image we have thus far. Neutral expression, good coloring, good view of his face, hair, etc.   Spartan7W §   15:01, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Image 1 is certainly the clearest and best lit of the images, and is thus appropriate. This is also a rather odd RfC; why is there even a dispute over this? Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Image #1. Agree this RfC is odd, but is more than that too: it's been preemptively (and questionably) defined & controlled by user MB298, apparently according to her/his own whim, running over recent RfC & discussions as though roadkill. IHTS (talk) 06:41, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment: Oh yeah guys elect him and then use official photo of POTUS from the White House. The current picture is okay but the best is Image #5. We have been discussing this since he entered the race, look into archives it always ended up same. Itsyoungrapper (talk) 19:06, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal: Get rid of the 10,000 character essay on Trump's Muslim plan

There is a pretty clear consensus here to prune the paragraphs discussing Trump's proposal to stop Muslims from entering the US. Hopefully this formal closure will allow some of you capable editors to do just that. MrX seems to have proposed a logical path forward (get rid of name dropping and comment from Pentagon in paragraph 6, most of paragraph 7, parenthetical in paragraph 8). I personally would suggest that it could be written in a more encyclopedic tone and would benefit from restructuring the paragraphs. ~Awilley (talk) 04:48, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Under the section Presidential campaign, 2016, there's a 10,000 character essay (In response to recent...on the matter) that goes into detail about his Muslim ban, including international reactions, online polls, and a bunch of celebrities' reactions. Can we please just get rid of this part. It shouldn't be in his main life page at all, and if people really want to know more about it, they should go to Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016. ThiefOfBagdad (talk) 18:14, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

This section was removed previously, i'm not sure why it is back. Sheepythemouse (talk) 18:22, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

  • I'm going to have to Oppose - Trump's views on Muslims are what many people know him for - it is also what makes him a controversial figure. Taking this out would go against WP's neutrality policy - it therefore needs to stay. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:28, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support This page is more about his personal life, there is a separate page on his political positions for that. Oppose getting rid of a couple sentence summary of it as it is notable.ShadowDragon343 (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - It's 537 words about a subject that he has become notorious for. I'm not opposed to trimming it though. For example the name dropping and the comment from the Pentagon in the 6th paragraph; most of the 7th paragraph; and the parenthetical in the 8th paragraph.- MrX 23:26, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per Ches.VictoriaGraysonTalk 00:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - People coming to the Trump article now are not coming to read his life story. They are coming to see what his views are in relation to his run for the Presidency of the United States. If they don't find them here I doubt they'll be digging up the 2016 campaign article. The section is thoughtfully written without violating NPOV or BLP rules and is very well sourced. The article is about a very important policy proposal of his and credible source criticism of it. There is precedent for including policy on pages of people running for office. Jackhammer111 (talk) 01:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
You say "I doubt they'll be digging up" the 2016 campaign article as though that represents a lot of work, when in fact that article is a click away (wlink'd in the lead). And the first time I went to the Barack Obama article it was to find anything re his birth certificate controversy. (There was nothing at all, not even a "See also". So that indeed involved some doing to find elsewhere.) IHTS (talk) 05:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Although, it could be more concise. His problem with people unlike him (Muslims, Blacks, Asians, Latinos, immigrants, women, the disabled) go back to his consent decrees over keeping Blacks out of his buildings. Appears to be a significant part of his life that started well before his campaign. Objective3000 (talk) 13:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. Some organization, please? Trump's 2016 run is a blink is his life-story, since only June. Specific campaign platform issues belong elsewhere. IHTS (talk) 20:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose It seems some editors are determined to turn this article into some sort of glowing, promotional puff piece. The Muslim ban proposal attracted strong international attention and criticism. It clearly belongs in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AusLondonder (talk • contribs)
@AusLondonder: The overstated ad-hominem isn't terribly helpful. I don't see any comments here aimed at trying to turn the article into a "glowing, promotional puff piece". The second half of your comment is more relevant. ~Awilley (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support this article is about Trump and should have a little bit about his campaign. The main article to discuss this though, should be the Presidential Campaign article. No other candidate, that I'm aware of, has such a large campaign sub-article within the main article. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:36, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"What the Trumps want, the Trumps get in this town"

I just heard this quote in a Chris Matthews biography [4], used by the mayor of the city regarding the 40-year tax abatement that was instrumental to the Commodore Hotel New York deal, which it presented as Trump's second major real estate transaction. I think this is very telling about the true nature of American business acumen. Could people please expand coverage of this sort of thing in the article, explaining more about what the Trump Organization connections did for Donald Trump's success? Wnt (talk) 00:42, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Is Trump a politician?

"Politician: NOUN 1 A person who is professionally involved in politics, especially as a holder of or a candidate for an elected office." [5]

Would someone please explain to me any rationale under which Trump would not be considered a politician? Several have insisted on removing that term from the lead of this article. One need not have experience in government to be a politician (as has been proven time and time again). General Ization Talk 12:41, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

@Ihardlythinkso: has mentioned this discussion, stating "there was no consensus" to include the word in the lead to describe Trump. I maintain that there was indeed consensus, although a !vote was not called for, and that is why the word remained in the lead from the conclusion of the discussion on March 15 to just yesterday. There was certainly no consensus in that discussion that it should be removed. General Ization Talk 13:37, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
There was no consensus in that discussion. You maintain their was. We disagree. And as far as your "that is why" argument, I disagree with that, too. (I've seen lag in this article in many respects over time. Inappropriate things done to disfigure this article, that remained longer than one would think before someone rectified the bad edits. I could get specific. So your argument is based on falacious assumption. [And you bold it. Go figure!]). IHTS (talk) 12:46, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
A correct assessment (that we disagree), but a different conclusion. In the absence of consensus, no change was warranted on the basis of that discussion. General Ization Talk 12:30, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Sally was probably unaware of the archived discussion. You just friggin' reverted her. Not good. Your argument for reinstatement smacks of wikilawyering. IHTS (talk) 12:54, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Talk about wikilawyering; I have yet to hear anyone make a cogent argument for Trump not being a politician (my request above), yet we are bickering about the meaning of consensus and the implications of a lack of one, a rather well-defined concept here. General Ization Talk 12:58, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Maybe you s/ read all the posts in this thread before commenting. Maybe you s/ show some respect for some significance to the fact that at least three other editors questioned the use of "politician" (prior to me). Maybe you s/ review how your arguments have so far been shown hollow and how you responded w/ escapist & off-putting snark. IHTS (talk) 13:25, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I've replaced the word. Of course he's a politician. Holding office is not a requirement. And, it's his second time around in running for office. Removing it was pointy, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:05, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello?! ("Of course he's a politician", is not an argument, in a discussion re the point/that topic. Is that your best argument, a non-argument?? And, your "second time around" ... where does/did that come from? [The quoted definition? Sorry I don't see it. The WP Politician article? Sorry I don't see it. Looks like you made that qualification up then!? Meanwhile, you can make qualifications up, but I can't?! Because if I can, and I think I s/b able to, just like you thought you s/b able to, then I'll propose my own - that the person labelled "politician" must have at one point represented voters & collected a paycheck from that line of work. {It's called "connotation". That is the connotation most readers's apply when reading "politician". Sally was one such reader.}]) IHTS (talk) 13:05, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
General Ization, spitting out a dictionary definition is a dog that doesn't hunt. Because if it did, then tell me right now, why you don't immediately go to articles Ben Carson and Carly Fiorina and add noun "politician" to the descriptive qualifiers in those articles' leads. (And please don't give the lame OTHERSTUFF deflection. Your definition applies equally to those BLPs, those individuals were directly involved in politics as candidates, and continue to be involved in politics after dropping out of their races, by endorsing, supporting, and campaigning for Trump and Cruz, respectively. So go add "politician" to those articles right now, if your definition argument is worth the pixels it consumes.) IHTS (talk) 12:39, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I absolutely think that "politician" should appear as a descriptor in the lead of Ben Carson and Carly Fiorina. But I'm not editing those articles. If you are, please do. General Ization Talk 13:04, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
What a predictable, escapist response. And a snide offense thrown in to-boot (offering me to make changes to those articles, when you know already clearly, that I don't feel it would be appropriate, here or there). IHTS (talk) 13:19, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
You are bordering on incivility. Please limit your comments to those which have some potential of leading to the improvement of the article. You asked why I didn't add the term to other articles (or if I thought it should be); I answered. Chill, please. General Ization Talk 14:38, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Who is? An escapist reply, laced w/ sarcastic suggestion I do something you know I would never do. And about your command to "Chill", oh I'm sure that isn't condescending or patronizing in the least. (Hypocritical? I'd say so. Your whole approach to discussion here intellectually dishonest? I'd say so.) IHTS (talk) 01:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
He's heavily engaged in party politics. Obviously yes. Objective3000 (talk) 16:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Guess what? I have no problem w/ stating in the article Trump is "engaged in party politics". (That is actually more definitive language, than label "politician" that people love to paint with. There is a difference. But I'm guessing you didn't anticipate this response.) IHTS (talk) 13:33, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
The reason that I used the phrase "engaged in party politics" is it is part of the OED definition of politician. But I'm guessing you didn't anticipate this response.:) Objective3000 (talk) 14:34, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Have already replied to the inappropriateness using black & white dictionary definition as the measure here. (But you're the editor who likes repeating things already previously discussed, ad nauseum.) IHTS (talk) 01:24, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
So what you guys are saying is that if any of us announce were running for president, were automatically a politician like that [snap]. Sally Book (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I think with Trump it's gone beyond the announcement stage.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:08, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I think if you take a tangible step towards running for office(filing paperwork, gathering signatures, opening an office, holding a rally, etc.), yes, you are a politician. 331dot (talk) 12:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I think that is engaging in political activities, yes. (But that doesn't warrant throwing on the heavy saddle/label "politician". [There's a diff.]) IHTS (talk) 13:48, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Trump is a politician right now, and it should say so in the lead. He is running for office. He has a reasonable chance of winning that office. He has a very good chance of winning the nomination; when he wins the nomination any degree of ambiguity to him being a politician or not will be removed. The only way I could see Trump not being classified as a politician is if he is denied the nomination and never involves himself in politics again, but I might be tempted to still classify him as being a politician in the light of dominating political coverage over a nine-month period. Also, Fiorina at least should be listed as a politician as well because she has made TWO runs for office. pbp 13:34, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
    • I have no problem w/ saying "politician as of recently" (your "right now"). "Politician" is a label w/ a connotation that conveys to most readers that during the person's life they have represented people thru election and pulled a paycheck, at least one time, for however long, and now they either still are doing that, or endeavoring to repeat. About Fiorina (and don't forget Carson), how about putting your edits where your contentions are? (General Ization wouldn't, choosing to be escapist & offensive instead.) IHTS (talk) 13:41, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
That is merely one definition of politician. Objective3000 (talk) 14:40, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
In the first sentence it says that Trump is a candidate for president. That makes much more sense than calling the orange frankenstein a politician when clearly he is not. Sally Book (talk) 15:36, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ihardlythinkso:  Done (Fiorina, that is) pbp 18:42, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm supposed to be impressed!? (Please explain to everyone why you skipped Ben Carson.) IHTS (talk) 01:43, 28 April 2016 (UTC) You didn't even do what you implied you did. (Look at the title of this Talk thread. Look at the lead to the article. The issue is application of label "politician". Your edit [6] added language that Carly is a "political candidate". Not the same. [I have no problem saying the same thing in the lead about Trump.]) Did you get cold feet, Purplebackpack89?? IHTS (talk) 02:11, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Ah, but that wasn’t the first edit I made to the page. I added “politician” to Carly Fiorina’s lede here. An IP (you?) removed it here and I added “political candidate” later (after her #2 to Cruz schlep) in the edit you cite. Also, there’s no need to goad me into making edits to this or other pages. pbp 13:04, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
OK, you added "politician" as you said you did, then it got reverted. (No, I'm not the IP who reverted you.) But then see what you did? You backed off label "politician", the whole point of this thread, in the Fiorina article. So you're illustrating my point. (That label "politician" isn't appropriate either there, or here. And you replaced it with something you thought would better stick [and language which I have no objection to]. And someone replaced it with language which I have no objection to.) IHTS (talk) 01:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
He´s a politician (among other things, as the lead says), that´s WP:BLUESKY. Not that it´s hard to source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:41, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
The argument that Trump and his supporters use this that he is not a politician, he's an outsider. Even his supporters wouldn't even call him a politician because they know he's not. Sally Book (talk) 18:12, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

I see a lot of WP:IDLI and WP:IDHT happening here. This article referring to Trump as a politician has nothing to do with his supporters or his detractors, it has to do with the actual definition of the word, if reliable sources refer to him as such, and that any content included needs to remain verifiable and WP:NPOV. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:30, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

But if it has to do with the definition, how come on Ben Carson and Carly Fiorina are credited as politicians. If Arnold Schwarzenegger ran for president he would be a politician because he was the governor of California. Sally Book (talk) 22:14, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Point: Schwartzenegger can't run for President because he was not born in the U.S. (nor was he an American citizen until he was 36 years old). Softlavender (talk) 04:26, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Exactly. Schwartzenegger is (unquestionably) a (former) politician, along with his other notable occupations. (Very few politicians are only or have always been politicians. Most have been engaged in, and generally successful in, some other profession or business role that provided them with the freedom, resources and connections to enter politics.) General Ization Talk 00:29, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
P.S. - Ronald Reagan was a politician before he became or ran for Governor of California, because he sought and won election as the the leader of an extremely powerful union in that state and elsewhere, with influence on state and national policy. Not all politicians are or strive to be members of government. General Ization Talk 00:36, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Your argument re Schwartzenneger doesn't make sense ... He is a former politician since he was an elected office-holder. No one has said here "politician" must be their only occupation in a lifetime. So someone not in politics before, "enters politics" according to you, and I agree with that language. (I dispute that it is the same as label "politician" - as have explained numerous times in the thread.) Your argument re Reagan makes more sense. But am not going to debate w/ you [whether "politician" was or wasn't apprpriate label for him before he was ever elected to political office] when the Carly Fiorina/Ben Carson examples are here & now.) IHTS (talk) 02:26, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm not going to debate with you at all. In fact, I'm doing my best to ignore you. General Ization Talk 02:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
It's called a "discussion page". But as anyone can see by reading the thread, you rather lay challenges on the table, then when confronted w/ answers, you walk. Then continue to post other challenges. IHTS (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Interesting thread as some think the classification as politician as negative and some as positive and both want to reject the term. It's irrelevant as to positive or negative; The classification is what it is. He is rather heavily engaged in politics. Can anyone deny that? What does that make him? Objective3000 (talk) 00:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

It makes him like you said. I disagree w/ the black & white view that is synonymous w/ and justifies label "politician". (I've made myself clear more than once in this thread. Oh! You're the editor who repeats & repeats & re-repeats. Yeah.) IHTS (talk) 01:17, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
This is your third personal attack in this thread. I'll no longer engage you. Objective3000 (talk) 10:36, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Well said. Despite the efforts of some to make it so, politician is by definition neither a compliment nor an insult; it's simply an occupation (possibly one of several or many). That some may think it connotes either status or a particular moral alignment is immaterial to how the term is used here. General Ization Talk 01:22, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Same lame "dictionary definition" argument. (The article is written for general readers, and yeah, many see the word w/ connotation of previous office-holding status. Most readers are not reading the WP w/ the OED in their lap.) IHTS (talk) 02:14, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
How are general readers misled by Trump being called a politician?--Jack Upland (talk) 03:42, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Go read my earlier posts. IHTS (talk) 00:34, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Dictionaries exist for a reason Ihardlythinkso, it is how we define the meanings of the words we use. I don't think it is misleading at all. HighInBC 04:11, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

How patronizing. (Do you have anything substantive to contribute to discussion??) IHTS (talk) 00:34, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
  • No. Trump is a celebrity who is running for office. BTW cf. Ralph Nader, in the identical situation -- a non-politician who ran for President. This should probably be an RfC if folks desire a definitive conclusion upon which to edit the article, as this is simply a round-robin. Softlavender (talk) 04:19, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I hesitate to contribute to emotional discussions, but I'm compelled to agree with Softlavender. Running for office, even successfully, does not automatically make one a "politician". My election as president of my state medical society did not make me one, nor did my election to the local school board, because politics is not my primary vocation - or even avocation. Another good example at the national level is Wendell Wilkie, a businessman who ran for president, but was never labeled a politician in sources, AFAIK. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 22:12, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
That's not really relevant to the question of Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
DoctorJoeE, we're talking about political office (hence the word "politician"), not medical societies or school boards. Softlavender (talk) 02:54, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm aware of that. Did you notice that I was trying to support your position, which was that "running for office" does not automatically brand a candidate as a politician? That was my point. A politician is someone who makes running for political office his or her career. You and Jack Upland are also ignoring the Willkie analogy, which couldn't be more relevant to Trump. Willkie was a politician, by most definitions, yet is never labeled as such, even on Wikipedia; so why call Trump one, when he has spent 99% of his career outside of politics? If Trump is a politician, then Velveeta is cheese. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 19:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
"A politician is someone who makes running for political office his or her career." No, actually; what you are describing is a career politician, a distinction I plan to explain at the RfC when I have a chance. Consider contra soldier versus career soldier. The lowliest conscript, having no intention of making the military his career, is still a soldier when he picks up a gun. General Ization Talk 19:57, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
A politician is someone who runs for political office. Trump is running for political office (President of the United States) therefore he should be called a politician. 20:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)ThePlatypusofDoom (Talk)
Then be consistent and go add "politician" to the ledes of the Carson, Fiorini, Nader, and Perot BLPs, which currently lack that descriptor. IHTS (talk) 00:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Trump has considered himself as being a politician since he announced. [7] Anyone who is running for office is a politician since they threw their hats into the business of politics. ShadowDragon343 (talk) 21:31, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

What I'm seeing, if I may presume to generalize, is basically this: "Of course Trump is a politician, because ... well ... because! He's running for office, and that's what politicians do!" But no one has come up with anything more convincing than that. Like the classic line about pornography, a politician is just something you know when you see one.

For the record, it should be pointed out that Trump himself has said repeatedly that he is not a politician -- and, in fact, that that is what sets him apart, because "politicians are all talk and no action. I'm the opposite." (Not that WP should cater to his preference, of course.) Also for the record, Webster's defines a politician as "a person experienced in the art or science of government; especially: one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government". I suppose WP will call him whatever we want to call him; but by the official definition, he isn't one. As for the soldier analogy above, ask any professional soldier whether a "lowly conscript" is a soldier. Unanimous answer: "Not yet." DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 21:35, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Please keep the discussion on one page. Also, that is but one of the definitions of politician. Objective3000 (talk) 10:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
@DoctorJoeE: Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one. The reason that nobody's come up with other answers is that that answer is so simple and direct that there doesn't need to be another answer. Also, I'm not seeing the soldier analogy as particularly relevant: it's like saying the difference between a soldier and a SOLDIER. pbp 13:04, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
For the relevance of the soldier argument, see my introduction of it up-page (soldier versus career soldier). DoctorJoeE has perverted the argument by theoretically limiting the respondents on the question to "professional soldiers", i.e., the military elite. However, how the military elite uses the term soldier was not the point, nor is how the political elite uses the term politician the question; how the common man uses it is, and there is obviously no "unanimous" answer on that point. General Ization Talk 13:46, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
So now I'm "perverting the argument". This is why, as I said in my very first contribution, that I hate to contribute to emotional discussions; they invariably get personal. I was merely pointing out that the analogy was inexact, at best. Clearly, this discussion has become hopeless enmeshed in minutiae, and we are not going to resolve anything here. In my 40-odd years of following politics, I've never before seen anyone call dabblers like Trump "politicians". No one referred to Ross Perot or Ralph Nader as politicians, for example; and none of the three major dictionaries include "running for office" in their primary definitions; but so what? This is still a free country, sort of, and everyone will call him what they wish to call him. Call him a banana, if you like; it's just not that important. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:48, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
There was nothing personal in saying that you perverted the argument; that is a perfectly reasonable description of what happens when you take a logical argument and twist it or misstate it in ways the original proponent of the argument never intended. I explained clearly how I believed you had done so. And two of your claims above are false, as demonstrated here and elsewhere (i.e., at the RfC): both Perot and Nader have indeed been called "politicians", and dictionaries do indeed state that someone seeking office is a politician (several of them, including the OED, include this within the primary definition). General Ization Talk 14:56, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Please be calm. The only mention of Nader I see above is in an argument against ("a non-politician who ran for president") and I don't see Perot at all (perhaps I missed him), but his article refers to him only as a "businessman", as does the general public, in my experience. OED's definition is "A person who is professionally involved in politics, especially as a holder of or a candidate for an elected office" (emphasis mine) -- see my point above re: "professional" -- and if you want to use that in your argument, you're going to have to define "candidate", since Trump hasn't been nominated, at least not yet. As I said, we're enmeshed in minutiae. You seem to want to turn this into a full-blown argument, but I don't; I simply don't think it's an important distinction. You're welcome to the last word if you want it. Cheers, DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 15:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

RfC created

Since the question remains unresolved, and this unstructured discussion doesn't seem to be producing a clear consensus, I have taken Softlavender's suggestion to heart and opened a formal RfC at: Talk:United States presidential election, 2016#RfC: Should current and recent candidates for US President be called "politicians"?. It is located there because the question is applicable to all candidates in the current US Presidential election. Please participate in the RfC there. General Ization Talk 12:20, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 3 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved per WP:SNOW (non-admin closure). SSTflyer 05:43, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


Donald Trump → Donald J. Trump – Clearly WP:COMMONNAME as it is used by Encyclopedia Britannica, Washington Post, Goodreads, and various news agencies ([8], [9]), not to mention by Trump himself on social media and when he talks in third person. Proud User (talk) 00:18, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
P.S. - Searches for search terms with mutual exclusions added produce very similar, but actually even more compelling, results: 103 million hits versus 55,600 hits. General Ization Talk 02:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Middle initial in infobox's heading

Look folks, see

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL.

Established professional journalistic practice, per style manuals of the AP, NYT, ad infinitum, is to render a subject's name in that indivual prefers such as often in her/his signature, etc. Thus it is WP's practice to render this in the header to the infobox when it conflicts with the shortened form the subject is generally known to the public by (as in wp:Common name); eg see Template:Infobox person: " If middle initials are specified (or implied) by the lead of the article, and are not specified separately in the birth_name field, include them here."

Cf. infobox header "Hillary Rodham Clinton" at Hillary Clinton, etc. --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 15:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

See below discussion at #Requested move 3 May 2016. WP:COMMONNAME for Trump is Donald Trump, regardless of how he describes himself or signs his name. General Ization Talk 15:07, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
reply - Thanks. I agree that COMMONNAME applies to the name of the article. This discussion is about the heading to the infobox, which should be the full name used as used in news accounts (and indeed this is what the current version of this article does).--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:18, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
I agree, the title is fine the way it is, but the INFObox should have pertinent information in it and a subject's full name is pertinent, and not the same thing as COMMONNAME. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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