Talk:Elmelindo Rodrigues Smith/Archive 1

Archive 1

Asian American

Other WikiArticles claim that this individual was of Asian American ethnic descent. However the article only has citation stating that he was a Hispanic American. Unless it can be reliably references I would suggest removing this individual from Asian Americans lists.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:11, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, upon checking the stated source, it says that the individual is Hispanic because of the name origin, completely forgetting such events as the Alphabetical Catalog of Surnames. I will remove the statement in short order unless another more reliable cite-able source can be provided. That is, unless someone were to argue that what ever ethnic group this individual descended from, Filipino?, are Hispanic.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• Hi RightCowLeftCoast, how are you? First let me introduce myself. I am a military historian whose published work is received in the Smithstonian Institute, the Library of Congress and so on and so forth.

The original article stated that: "Staff Sergeant Elmelindo Rodrigues Smith (July 27, 1935-February 16, 1967) born in Wahiawa, Hawaii, was a United States Army soldier, of "Hispanic-Asian descent", who was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions in the Vietnam War. Despite being severely wounded, Smith inspired his men to beat back an enemy assault."

I guess someone along the line went and changed it and should be changed back. Anyway, I became interested in his case along time ago as I did some others discovering their Hispanic roots.

Elmelindo is a Hispanic name and Rodrigues a Hispanic surname. His case is similar to World War I Medal of Honor recipient Pvt. David B. Barkley whose Hispanic roots were unknown until it was discovered that the "B." in his name stood for "Benes" which was his mothers surname proving his Hispanic heritage.

In the research it was discovered that Elmelindo is a descentdant of John Rodrigues from Ponce, Puerto Rico who in 1899, arrived in Hawaii as a result of the devastation of Puerto Rico's sugar industry by two hurricanes, see: Puerto Rican immigration to Hawaii. It is a common practice to use the surnames of both parents as is the custom in most Hispanic cultures, ex. Hector Santiago-Colon.

During the 1960’s the term Hispanic did not exist and when you joined the Armed Forces of the United States, it would be a common practice for "Hispanics" (The term didn't not exsist and was not used until the 1970s) to use only one surname (the second one) and classify ourselves as "Caucasian" in the applications, hence: Elmelindo Rodrigues Smith’s name appeared as "Name: Elmelindo R. Smith" and his "Race: Caucasian" in his military records making it difficult to discover his Hispanic heritage until now.

One of the many cases which I worked on was that of Capt. Humbert Roque Versace whose Hispanic heritage was unknown of until I discovered that his mother was Puerto Rican. As a result of my work the government of Puerto Rico inscribed his name in the "monument of Remembrance". However, the case of Elmelindo Rodrigues Smith required some indepth research which came to a conclussion when his daughter confirmed my findings. I will make the proper fixes. Tony the Marine (talk) 04:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I greatly appretiate the timely response to my question, but as with all things on Wikipedia, a good article is a well resourced/cited article, and the resource provided was not what one would consider a reliable resource. I completely believe what you are saying, however, if you were to post your statement, without citation, it maybe flagged by someone else as original research, and thus removed.

Furthermore, if PSG Smith is verified to be, in whole or in part, Puerto Rican, is there verifiable and citable proof that he is also of an asian ethnicity?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

• • I truely enjoy having sensible conversations with people like you. In his case his Puerto Rican heritage is that of a very distant relative. We were told that his father was of Japanese descent and that is why in some sources he is also considered an Asian-American. Something similar to the case of Rudolph B. Davila who in a lot of websites is only listed as Asian-American. You go figure. Tony the Marine (talk) 05:07, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Is there any references indicating that the subject's mother is Asian American?

There are references stating that he is Asian American (1 2), but given the fact that Mendonca's family contested, or are denying, the DoD's statement regarding the subject being part Filipino American (getting the DoD to erase past mentions of Filipino/Asian ethnicity regarding the subject) this needs to be looked into.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:31, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:CANVASS#Appropriate I am notifying interested editors that I am soliciting comments regarding this from potentially interested parties. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:39, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

• I don't believe that there is any actual proof that he has Asian blood. The misunderstanding (and this is only my opinion) may come from the fact that he was born in Hawaii and most of the native people of Hawaii are descendants of indigenous Polynesian people. The DoD did not keep a record of the enticity of it's soldiers during that era (Vietnam and before) and would seem logical that they would clasify those born in Hawaii as Asian Pacific Americans. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:23, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Copypasted from my talk page

Really no idea at this point. *sigh* I'm beginning to think the US records once considered all Hawaiians to be Asian-American. But again, unless they remove him from that article he was in with Mendonca, we can't really remove it. I found a genealogical site that might explain it though, partially cross-confirmed in here.

His father seems to be Elmelindo T. Smith, Sr., who was born in the Philippines in 1907 and died in in California in 1992. Given the time and place of birth and the peculiar combination of his name ('Elmelindo' and 'Smith'), Elmelindo Sr. is very likely to have been Filipino-American. Elmelindo, Jr. had two other brothers and two sisters and a wife and children that might still be living. And given that they haven't complained yet... :P I think it's safe to say it's correct.

So yeah, unless someone lodges another complaint against DoD, we have no reason to change it. :P -- Obsidi♠n^Soul 09:25, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Addendum: Tony, which sources claim Japanese ancestry for his father? Admittedly, the links I gave aren't exactly what I'd call reliable but the existence of a man named Elmelindo T. Smith, Sr. is confirmable and is cited by at least one other source to be one of his parents. The name Elmelindo wasn't from the fact that his mother was Hispanic, the source is his father who had the Smith surname.

Filipinos were also just as large (if not larger) a migrant population to Hawaii during the same period for the same reasons as Puerto Rican migrants - both were under the U.S. Commonwealth, and both were used as laborers for sugarcane fields given their experiences with Spanish sugarcane haciendas.

At this point our best bet is to find more info on the father or from living relatives. Deciding purely Hispanic ancestry merely from the surname isn't really that reliable. Filipinos do have Hispanic first names and surnames (including me, from both sets of grandparents, including two Spanish mestizo lineages), and yes, including the Rodriguez and Rodrigues variations (although in this case, I think it's safe to say his mother was indeed of Puerto Rican descent). Are you still in contact with his daughter? -- Obsidi♠n^Soul 09:49, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

You might want to contact DoD because the second reference I provided mentions Mendonca as being Asian American. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Are those references to genealogical sites considered reliable sources? Would they past muster as references within the article space? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 03:49, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, I too agree with you that our best bet would be to find more info on the father or from living relatives. Unfortunately, throughout the years I have lost contact with the daughter. You know, as you said, he may be both Hispanic (Puerto Rican mother) and Asian (Asian father). Something similar Humbert Roque Versace who is both Puerto Rican and Italian-American, but then we would be speculating. Tony the Marine (talk) 16:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I have seen one mention of the subject of this article being Japanese American. That being said it is of questionable content as it draws its content from open source information such as Wikipedia.

Let me comment regarding this issue in general. It would be sad if we can find DEOMI, and thus the DoD, guilty of possible OR. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

For the 2010 book, nah, VERY questionable content. Those kinds of books are purely derived from Wikipedia, so we're just going around in circles. Furthermore, it seems to be a section on Asian-American MoH recipients, not Japanese-Americans alone, as it obviously includes Korean-Americans, Indian-Americans, and Chinese-Americans (their names are most certainly not Japanese, unless by some weird twist of fate, all Asian-American MoH recipients turns out to have a Japanese ancestor somewhere down the line). I have also found other sites saying he was Japanese-American, and the sources of that also seems to be an earlier revision of this (Wikipedia) article.

As for the genealogy site, I think so. On further inspection, it seems that the information on that site is produced by www.ancestry.com, a commercial genealogical site, and I'd say they are quite reliable. We can be fairly sure that his father was Elmelindo T. Smith, Sr. (the other source independently confirms it from a 1967 news article) and that he was born in 1907 died in 1992 (again independently confirmed by grave sites). The latter two increases the credibility of the former.

It's also one of the rarer sites which does not fall prey to relying to Wikipedia or the DoD. It refers to a broader topic (of Filipino genealogy in Hawaii, and quite a detailed one) rather than focusing on Elmelindo R. Smith, MoH recipients, or even simply famous Hawaiians.-- Obsidi♠n^Soul 05:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should check the references agianst WP:RSN? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 09:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead. Feel free to copypaste my above responses.-- Obsidi♠n^Soul 17:47, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Done. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:53, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

No responses were received at RSN. I will invite potential interested users to this discussion. If that doesn't drum up opinions of the sources, we can always go full blown with RfC. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:49, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Rank

The article states that he is a Staff Sergeant, however I have one reliable source that only gives his rank as Platoon Sergeant, which is usually a Staff Sergeant but not necesarily so, and another questionable source that lists him as a Specialist E-6(SP6).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I have found one reliable source (on page 43, that states that he is a Staff Sergeant. However, does the strength of this document counter the other government sourced material that states that he is a Platoon Sergeant, without giving a specific rank?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• You are absolutely right. Elmelindo Rodrigues Smith was a Staff/ Sgt. and was posthumously promoted (smiliar to the "tomestone promotions") to Platoon Sergeant which is the equivalent of Sergeant First Class. This will be fixed Tony the Marine (talk) 04:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)