Talk:Finnish markka

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On 15 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Finnish mark. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Untitled

I find it funny that the English name mark is not mentioned at all in the English Wikipedia. We sure used it in the English classes in my childhood. Was it never widely used in official contexts in the UK or in the USA? – Jippe 16:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The international banks and other financial organisations used FIM - Finnish markka, not mark. Check the external links. --Pudeo ⺮ 19:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, thank you very much. I still think it's noteworthy that dictionaries used mark. I guess I'll leave it for others to decide whether and in which form that piece of information should be added. – Jippe 20:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, according to various sources, indeed the real ISO code "FIM" refers to Finnish Markka [1], [2], [3] --Pudeo ⺮ 17:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is possible that the use has changed. "Finnish Markka" may be a name used only the last 20 years, without Internet noticing the old practise. --LPfi (talk) 12:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Finnish markka" seems to be an odd mixture of the Finnish and Swedish names of the currency. In Swedish it was called the "Finsk mark" and in Finnish "Suomen markka". "FIM" is not an abbreviation of the currency's name, the abbreviation was "FMk" in Swedish or "SMk" in Finnish, FIM is the ISO code, ISO codes do not always reflect the actual name of a currency (such as the renminbi, the currency of mainland China, whose ISO code is "CNY" but whose abbreviation is "RMB"). Other language version of Wikipedia do not attempt to import the Finnish grammar into the names of their articles, all of them refer to the currency by the usual word for "mark" in their language: "Finnische Mark" on the German Wikipedia, "Mark finlandais" on the French Wikipedia, "Marco finlandés" on the Spanish Wikipedia and so on.

Google returns 71,000,000 results for Finnish mark, but only 318,000 for Finnish markka, thus "mark" is far more often used for the name of the currency in English.

Therefore I would like to propose relocating this article to "Finnish mark", though still of course referencing the Finnish grammar in the etymology section. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 05:22, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ISO code?

What is the ISO code for the old (pre-1963) mark? It can't be FIM, since that exclusively refers to the post-1963 mark... (Stefan2 21:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Last finnish coins.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"pl"?

Since when was penni shortened to postifx "pl"? I am a native Finn and lived here for my whole life. I have used the markka from the early 1980s (when I was old enough to own money) right up to its end and have never seen penni shortened to "pl", it was always "p". There isn't even a letter "l" in the word penni FCOL! JIP | Talk 16:22, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Use pictures of banknotes in WikiMedia Commons?

There seems to be pictures of banknotes of the Finnish markka at WikiMedia Commons. At least the German article de:Finnische Mark uses them. Seeing as the pictures are already at WikiMedia Commons, should the English Wikipedia article about the Finnish markka use them as well? JIP | Talk 21:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Obverse and reverse reversed

The table and images in the banknotes section have the terms 'obverse' and 'reverse' referring to wrong sides of the notes. The obverse or 'front' side of the banknotes is the side that features the face of the person depicted in the note, while the reverse sides depict the landscapes and swans. 213.243.190.3 (talk) 15:29, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

silver markka coin of 1963

The coins section paragraph about 1963 coins has this: 1 markka (silver, later cupro-nickel)
However, finnish wikipedia says it was 35% silver, 57% copper and 8% zinc (I believe that is also known as "Ag 350"). Sure, they were (and are) called the "silver markka", but if 'cupro-nickel' is specifically mentioned, then should the other too. 82.141.95.243 (talk) 17:08, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

File:FIN-A36b-Finlands Bank-20 Markkaa (1862).jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:FIN-A36b-Finlands Bank-20 Markkaa (1862).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on January 13, 2020. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2020-01-13. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:07, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Picture of the day

The Finnish markka was the currency of Finland from 1860 to 2002. The currency was divided into 100 pennies and was first introduced by the Bank of Finland to replace the Russian ruble at a rate of four markkaa to one ruble. The markka was replaced by the euro on 1 January 2002 and ceased to be legal tender on 28 February later that year.

This picture shows a 20-markka banknote issued in 1862, as part of the first issue of markka banknotes (1860 to 1862), for the Grand Duchy of Finland, then an autonomous part of the Russian Empire; 1862 was also the first year of issue for this particular denomination. The banknote's obverse depicts the coat of arms of Finland on a Russian double-headed eagle, and was personally signed by the director and the cashier of the Bank of Finland. The text on the obverse is in Swedish, whereas the reverse is primarily in Russian and Finnish.Banknote credit: Bank of Finland; photographed by Andrew Shiva

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Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Finland

Should the Kingdom of Finland even be mentioned in the "users" section in the infobox? The Kingdom of Finland was a very short-lived phase in Finnish history (it lasted only one year) and has little to none bearing to the country's current state. For the entire duration of the kingdom, the country did not even actually have a monarch. JIP | Talk 21:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Suomen kolikot (1864-2001).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move Request

I would like to propose moving this article to "Finnish mark". Google returns 71,000,000 results for "Finnish mark", but only 318,000 for "Finnish markka". The suffix "ka" is an aspect of Finnish grammar rather than being legitimately distinct from "mark". Wikipedias in other languages do not use this hybrid form, instead calling it by the usual word for "mark" in their language. The article for the Turkish lira does not call it "Turkish lirası" for example.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 22:00, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the page, please discuss any issues you may have with the move here, thank you. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 00:15, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's up to individual countries to yield (or not yield) to English equivalents whenever native words are transcribed into English in their most prominent literature. Sometimes they're okay deferring to English usage in media and the most prominent settings, e.g. Turkish lira / liras or Dutch guilder / guilders. But sometimes there will be firm insistence on fidelity to native syllabry like Swedish krona or Finnish markka (the latter evidenced by Bank of Finland website). Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect of Finnish markka and Polish marka into the Anglicised Finnish mark and Polish mark has been reversed as it lacks WP:CON.

Granting you changed Tuscan pound to Tuscan lira etc since the preferred term for historic Italian currencies is "lira" without direct translation , shouldn't you therefore defer to their preferred currency term in the English language? Bank of Finland clearly used "markka" in English literature as well as its currency. https://www.suomenpankki.fi/en/money-and-payments/the-markka2/

I'll also call on user:John Maynard Friedman for quicker arrival at WP:CON with minimum bounceback as well as discuss revert-back to Polish marka Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 18:37, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is about the consensus in English usage. Whether or not a central bank insists on one name in translation or another is immaterial, especially as Finland itself used "mark" as that was the Swedish form of the name, and Swedish is an official language in Finland. The Soviet ruble page uses "ruble", even though the USSR itself used "rouble" as the official translation in all English texts it produced. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:45, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The European Central Bank also used 'Markka' (albeit with quasi-English plural 'Markkas') Not only did Finlands Bank refuse to yield to 'Mark', it appears there is indeed an English consensus for 'Markka' at the highest levels of Finland and the EU. The burden of proof is yours that ECB's and Finland's use of 'Markkaa' is not consensual and is merely illusory.

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/exchange/fi/html/index.en.html

Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And what sources would satisfy you? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 21:15, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so, I think an apology from me is in order. Checking period sources (oddly while looking for something completely different), it appears the name of the currency was regarded as Finnish markka in English, but its description in prose was always mark (and this was what had led me to move the article). So one would say "500 marks", not "500 markka", but if merely naming the currency rather than describing a specific sum of money it was "markka". We all make mistakes, I'm sorry. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 21:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(This would have been my follow-up point...) 'Markka' and 'mark' distinction is more akin to 'formal name' and 'nickname'. You may have called 'Joe' 100 times but introducing 'Joe' demands use of full name like 'Joseph'. And reciting 'marks' several times in text cannot negate Finland Bank's very firm and formal introduction of the currency as the 'markka' - give it top billing as per proper decorum, and 'marks' can follow for convenience. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 21:34, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can work with this: use "markka" in the heading as the name of the currency, but describe the main unit in the body of the article as "mark/marks" etc. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 22:09, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

and re: Polish marka ... okay I'll hand this to you, I doubt Poland had insisted on 'marka' given it's merely transitory currency, and based on available texts. It can work with 'marka' or 'mark'. What's of consequence to them is that Polish zloty never gets top-billed as the Polish guilder. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 21:50, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Or indeed "Polish florin", as it was once known in English. Many of the results for "Polish marka" in Google books are quotes written in Polish, and others are not exactly the first texts you'd go to as sources (mostly history books rather than material on banking, finance and trade). "Polish mark" though produces many relevant contemporary results. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 22:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish markka → Finnish mark – Some time ago, an IP changed most use of "markka" on this article to "mark". Later, TheCurrencyGuy even chose to move this page to "Finnish mark".

I am proposing this RM to see whether someone wants to rename the article to match the usage of "mark" in the text, but I personally oppose this move: unless there are sources, I think that if "markka" ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thanks. NotReallySoroka (talk) 03:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I personally believe that the IP is actually TCG before they chose to register an account, judging by the fact that the IP also changed "ruble" to "rouble". But let's not turn this into an SPI. Thanks again, NotReallySoroka (talk) 03:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

oppose 'Markka' is used in sources—blindlynx 16:39, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Google NGrams data shows that "Finnish Mark" dominates until 1990 or so, but there's a massive rise in the proportion of "Finnish Markka" from 1990 to early 2000s.
Some casual Google searches revelease the following entities using "Markka": Federal Reserve, Museum of Bank of Finland, The Guardian, National Museum of Finland, National Bank of Finland, European Commission, European Central Bank. On the other hand, pretty much the only users of "Finnish Mark" I could find was This is Finland (a Ministry for Foreign Affairs of Finland promotional website). YLE manages to use both in the same story.
Google Scholar shows 934 hits for "Finnish Mark" in quotes, and 2040 results for "Finnish Markka" in quotes. Limiting the Google Scholar search to publications from 2000 onwards gives 502 results for "Finnish Mark" vs. 1130 results for "Finnish Markka".
None of these alone are very strong signals, but they all align in support of "Finnish Markka", hence my "oppose" !vote. That said, given how weak the signals are in isolation, I'd happily change my !vote if someone can produce a more comprehensive analysis that comes to the opposing conclusion. Ljleppan (talk) 16:43, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Markka is more commonly used. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, the oppose votes suggest that the article requires editing. The following is apparently not true: "typically known outside Finland as the Finnish mark", so that should be removed. And throughout the article "mark" should be replaced by "markka". Please keep consistency between article title and article content. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.