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Should the IDF footage be in the article? And if so, what should it be captioned?

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·I'm in favor of "IDF footage of incident" personally. Tdmurlock (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Go ahead and add it. Appears to be freely licensed. Caption can be tweaked by normal editing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. With the caption "Aerial footage released by the IDF". –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The IDF is an unreliable source imo. They are known to edit video to suit, when not telling porkies, clear attribution needed for anything from there. Selfstudier (talk) 13:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support addition, it illustrates relevant events. JM (talk) 19:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it is included it should be described as the NYTimes did, as heavily edited and meant to deflect blame. nableezy - 14:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we are to keep the footage, the caption should reflect this. Mooonswimmer 17:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Israeli forces opened fire on civilians"

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Currently, the lede says that "Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks on al-Rashid street at the Al-Nabulsi roundabout to the west of Gaza City", sourced to Al Jazeera.

However, I'm not seeing a consensus among reliable sources that this is what happened. For example, The New York Times says there are conflicting accounts and that Israeli forces opened fire on Thursday as a crowd gathered near a convoy of aid trucks in Gaza City in a chaotic scene in which scores were killed and injured, according to Gazan officials and the Israeli military, which attributed most of the deaths to a stampede.

The BBC is similarly non-committal, even after reviewing Al Jazeera's footage; they describe the footage as showing Volleys of gunfire can be heard and people are seen scrambling over lorries and ducking behind the vehicles. Red tracer rounds can be seen in the sky. - they don't describe it as showing Israeli forces firing on civilians.

The Guardian also summarizes it as "accounts differ".

As far as I can tell, we don't know what happened yet - in time, the facts will emerge, but until then we need to be cautious with the language we use. BilledMammal (talk) 02:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Volleys of gunfire can be heard" according to the BBC sounds a lot like opening fire... Lukt64 (talk) 04:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But what at? Reliable sources aren't in agreement with this - which makes it an issue when we state, in Wikivoice, that they "opened fire on civilians". BilledMammal (talk) 04:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should be removed from the lead based on BilledMammal's evidence. JM (talk) 04:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with this being removed from the lead, I would prefer adding other accounts to the lead because this is the most likely. User3749 (talk) 05:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be helpful if we based this discussion on WP:HQRS; can you provide additional ones to support your position? Note that we would need a substantial number to outweigh the ones that decline to take a position on what has happened. BilledMammal (talk) 05:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some more sources: 1 (Khaleej Times) 2 (Al Jazeera), already mentioned by multiple users above 3 (Jacobin, RSPS says it is generally reliable but is biased)
This is just some, I will find more and put them here User3749 (talk) 05:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know if Khaleej is a reliable source, but it supports "conflicted accounts" rather than "opened fired on civilians".
Jacobin doesn’t have much weight here; There is a consensus that Jacobin is a generally reliable but biased source. Editors should take care to adhere to the neutral point of view policy when using Jacobin as a source in articles, for example by quoting and attributing statements that present its authors' opinions, and ensuring that due weight is given to their perspective amongst others'. BilledMammal (talk) 06:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the Khaleej Times article, the main body content states there are conflicted accounts but in the headline it states Israeli forces open fire at a crowd flocked to the aid distribution point... and I already acknowledged there is consensus that Jacobin is biased. Some more sources: This but I don't know if it's reliable or not (I still have more but I'm trying to exclude the unreliable or obviously biased ones). User3749 (talk) 09:12, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:HEADLINE; we don’t consider them to be reliable sources.
The France24 article appears reliable, but it doesn’t support the claim "opened fire on civilians". BilledMammal (talk) 09:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the Khaleej Times, I'm not only taking from the headline, the entire article primarily mentions the Israeli shooting, and the France24 article also includes mentions of the Israeli shooting but it does also states that accounts by Israeli officials differ. Also, some sources that I just found: this, and this but I also don't know if it's reliable or not. User3749 (talk) 10:08, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the articles, can you quote the content (excluding headlines and sub-headlines) that say "opened fire on civilians" or similar? BilledMammal (talk) 10:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
France24: Shortly after he left the convoy, he said, witnesses reported that Israeli troops opened fire on the civilians trying desperately to get hold of food.
Khaleej Times: The crowd flocked to the aid distribution point early on Thursday, desperate for food amid Gaza's looming famine, only to be met with lethal chaos including live fire by Israeli troops.
Al Arabyia: Some Palestinians injured in a Gaza aid disaster said on Friday that Israeli forces shot them as they rushed to get food for their families, describing a scene of terror and chaos.
New Arab: More than 100 Palestinian civilians were killed and over 700 injured as they queued for aid on Thursday morning in Gaza, in the latest massacre committed by Israeli forces in the besieged enclave. User3749 (talk) 10:43, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only one that supports the claim is New Arab; the rest attribute the claims or are ambiguous. BilledMammal (talk) 10:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You mean those that directly support the claim, not those that merely say it has been reported or those that attribute the claim to witnesses etc.? I will try to find sources that support the claim directly but you could also just have clarified. User3749 (talk) 10:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I thought it was clear; a source only supports us making a claim in Wikivoice if it makes the same claim in its own voice. BilledMammal (talk) 11:01, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the FT "Dozens of Palestinians were killed on Thursday during a chaotic attempt to get humanitarian aid into northern Gaza, during which Israeli forces opened fire on civilians." Think that's clear enough. Selfstudier (talk) 12:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note that we would need a substantial number to outweigh the ones that decline to take a position on what has happened. BilledMammal (talk) 12:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you need sources that say they did not fire on civilians, have any? Selfstudier (talk) 14:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve presented a number of sources that say we don’t know what happened. Until sources consistently say we do know what happened - and consistently say the same thing - we cannot say we know what happened. BilledMammal (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are not saying anything, the sources are. Add the fact that some sources say that they don't know if desired. Selfstudier (talk) 22:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we put it in Wikivoice, we are saying that. BilledMammal (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because the sources are, the ones given in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 23:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the majority are saying "we don't know". I'm repeating myself now, so this discussion has become unproductive - if you want to include, in Wikivoice, that Israel opened fire on civilians, then please open an RfC proposing that and get formal consensus per WP:ONUS. BilledMammal (talk) 23:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, it's in the article so it has consensus. I didn't put it in, I just added a couple reference supporting it. Like I said if you want to write that this and that source "don't know" (pretty sure they didn't actually say that), go right ahead. Selfstudier (talk) 23:10, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Burrobert: I see you re-added this line; there is no consensus for its inclusion, and the sources don't support it being presented in this way.
What we should do is present the two sides - that one side is saying that Israeli forces opened fire on civilians in an ambush and massacre, and that the other is saying that a large number were killed in a stampede, and that while Israeli forces opened fire at one point when they were threatened by a mob they were primarily warning shots and only killed a small fraction of those who died.
If you believe your presentation is more appropriate, then I would ask that, per WP:ONUS, you open an RfC on its inclusion at restore the article to the status quo while it proceeds. BilledMammal (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You say there is no consensus, who else besides you is objecting? There are at least four and probably more editors supporting it. Selfstudier (talk) 23:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
JM2023, and probably more editors. BilledMammal (talk) 23:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me the two sides are covered in the second para of the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 23:36, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Times of Israel: The army ... acknowledged that troops opened fire on several Gazans who moved toward soldiers and a tank at an IDF checkpoint, endangering soldiers, after they had rushed the last truck in the convoy further south. [...] An officer stationed in the area ordered soldiers to fire warning shots in the air as the Palestinians were within a few dozen meters, as well as gunfire at the legs of those who continued to move toward the troops, the probe said.

Per the above, the IDF admitted firing at some of the Palestinians. starship.paint (RUN) 03:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would have no objection if the article said something along those lines, but it omits most of the context and says that they fired on civilians who were attempting to retrieve food, not who were advancing towards soldiers: The incident ... took place when Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks on Al-Rashid street at the Al-Nabulsi roundabout.
While some sources do claim that what happened is as we currently depict it, most reliable sources decline to take a position. BilledMammal (talk) 03:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure that's true, here's NBC, generally Israel supportive, "Rescuers continue to recover bodies from Nabulsi roundabout in Gaza City, where more than 100 people were killed after Israeli forces opened fire on a crowd of Palestinians hoping to get food. The IDF has confirmed and denied shooting into the crowd, and blamed most of the deaths on a stampede." Selfstudier (talk) 12:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that is a similar situation to WP:HEADLINES; when you follow the link provided in that summary it says "Israeli forces are accused of opening fire Thursday on a crowd of Palestinians who were hoping to get food from aid trucks in Gaza City." BilledMammal (talk) 12:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

POV-pushing

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Please consider checking out BilledMammal's edits. Thanks, RodRabelo7 (talk) 05:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RodRabelo7Not sure why this was reverted? Many sources do describe it as a massacre. Genabab (talk) 12:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, while some of the edits individually could be debated, the combination definitely feels like POV-pushing, especially with the removal of RS. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 13:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Three "incident"s, why am I not surprised? Selfstudier (talk) 13:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incident, also called the Flour Massacre, was a humanitarian aid incident". Apart from the redundancy, what is a "humanitarian aid incident"? This would be funny if the circumstances weren't so tragic. The lead doesn't mention that the people killed and injured were trying to get food from aid trucks. Compare the current lead with the lead that existed until a few hours ago: "On 29 February 2024, in what has been characterized as a massacre, 112 Palestinian civilians were killed and at least 760 were injured when Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks on al-Rashid street at the Al-Nabulsi roundabout to the west of Gaza City". Burrobert (talk) 14:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lede is a mess now too because of these edits. Salmoonlight (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those mostly look fine if you ask me; what is the specific issue? FortunateSons (talk) 12:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Convoy background

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@Selfstudier: I would suggest that the background to the convoy is WP:DUE for the lede, but regardless, would you be willing to move that content to the body rather than deleting it entirely? Surely we can agree that it is due there? BilledMammal (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I already put a sentence in about that yesterday, sourced to Reuters, "The aid delivery was operated by private contractors as part of an Israeli operation which OCHA said was made without coordination with the U.N." No objection if you want to pad that out a bit more. Most of what you wanted to write is also there. Selfstudier (talk) 23:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Opening sentences

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Can't we do better? As a descriptive title, doesn't need bold intro and then there is just needless obfuscation. It's not a "crowd rush", it's the tragic death of a 100 + hungry people. Selfstudier (talk) 12:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is probably both, so while a change is generally a good idea, I do not believe it to be viable in this situation. We don’t know the cause of death, and something being ‘tragic’ is not an adequate justification for having potentially inaccurate opening sentences. Let’s wait a few days for more news. FortunateSons (talk) 12:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another "humanitarian aid incident"

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"At least eight people have been killed and many others injured in an Israeli bombing of an aid truck in Deir el-Balah in the central Gaza Strip, according to witnesses cited by the Wafa news agency.

The Israeli bombing hit the truck belonging to a Kuwaiti association in the Brook area on al-Rashid Street, according to Al Jazeera sources."

Do we change the title to "Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incidents"? Salmoonlight (talk) 20:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The al-Rashid massacre was in Gaza City, and has a significantly high death toll. We could add the Deir el-Balah bombing in an "Aftermath" section of this article and if more information comes out, create a second article for the Deir el-Balah bombing. These two incidents aren't really connected by location, but rather part of a larger campaign by Israel against aid convoys. Jebiguess (talk) 20:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why not start a new section about all other attacks on humanitarian aid/aidseekers using the paragraph of text in the background section detailing these other attacks? Eventually an article about "Attacks on humanitarian aid during the Israel-Hamas war" might be needed, but for now, I think this article should focus primarily on the Al-Rashid massacre. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 20:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The new incident you mentioned should probably be placed in a parent article somewhere until it meets GNG. I do not think this article is the correct place for it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should it be mentioned in the lede that the Gaza Health Ministry is administered by Hamas?

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The GHM is generally accepted as having been administered by Hamas since 2007 when Fatah-affiliated directors and staff were replaced by Hamas loyalists. Should the mention of the GHM in the lede be preceded by the phrase "Hamas-administered"? Tdmurlock (talk) 20:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

pinging @Dylanvt Tdmurlock (talk) 21:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's certainly not common practice across Wikipedia to precede "Gaza Health Ministry" with "Hamas-run", as some sort of disclaimer. Look across other articles on the current war, and you won't see that epithet really at all. I'm sure there's been some discussion about this somewhere, too. Dylanvt (talk) 21:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Gaza Health Ministry may be run by Hamas, but many organizations have stated that that doesn't affect its coverage and reliability. This report shows that compared to independent estimates of the death toll during the current war, GHM is reliable and doesn't exaggerate it's reports. Even then, Israeli intelligence has deemed the numbers by GHM accurate, especially considering Israel doesn't collect civilian casualties in Gaza. I think that it should be mentioned somewhere in the article, but not in the lede as it may be perceived as NPOV. Jebiguess (talk) 21:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Including that it is hamas-run has been used obviously in the past to diminish the death count. If the death count is reliable, then folks can just click on the link to the Gaza Health Ministry to see it is administered by Hamas and has had these claims. We should not mention it as a qualifier for every reporting that it does. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should follow reliable sources; looking at sources it appears many attribute their figures not just to the health ministry but to the "Hamas-run" health ministry or similar:
  1. ABC
  2. The Hill
  3. Sky News
  4. Shine (Reliability unknown)
  5. MSN
  6. BBC
  7. China Daily
  8. WION
  9. GMA
  10. 1News
Etc. Based on this, I've clarified the first mention as "Hamas-run"; after the first use I don't think we need to continue saying it. BilledMammal (talk) 04:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with clarifying the first mention per sources. JM (talk) 04:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why Hamas-run is relevant whenever it has been established that the GHM is the reliable source on the ground, and is the best source for a toll on this particular attack. As Sawerchessread said, by linking to the GHM's page users can derive that the ministry is run by Hamas, but in the instance of this incident, using Hamas-run is POV-pushing. Jebiguess (talk) 07:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What’s relevant is determined by reliable sources; reliable sources have decided this is relevant. Further, GHM hasn’t been established as reliable on this topic, and I would suggest they aren’t based on their actions in relation to the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. BilledMammal (talk) 07:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have listed sources above, this and this, establishing that GHM is a reliable source in the conflict. It is also, currently, the only reliable source on this current attack, so unless Israel or an independent agency are willing to provide their own numbers, the GHM should not be dismissed. Jebiguess (talk) 07:34, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those relate to the overall death toll; it has been less reliable in relation to specific incidents. In addition, we’re not dismissing it; we’re just attributing it in the same way our sources do. BilledMammal (talk) 07:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems redundant. Shouldn't we then also say "Likud administered IDF" etc? KetchupSalt (talk) 10:10, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do reliable sources say "Likud administered IDF"? BilledMammal (talk) 10:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussed to death at the main article for the war, no need to do it all again, using Hamas run is not needed or necessary. Selfstudier (talk) 11:43, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is unnecessary to mention that it is Hamas-run and it is generally not mentioned on other articles relating to the war. MountainDew20 (talk) 01:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. This has been endlessly discussed. It is an official Israeli talking point that everything regarding Gaza has to be subsumed under the Hamas-ergo terrorism equation (a narrative bias automatically picked up by many mainstream (ie. Western) sources while, historically no evidence has emerged that in the several wars, the Gaza medical authorities have manipulated their data. To the contrary they are regulary cited by reliable observers who specialize in these matters without the hammering message that, 'caveat lector, these are terrorist sources', which is essentially the point of splashing it everywhere in wikipedia articles on the Gazan health system.Nishidani (talk) 07:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And in other articles, consensus has been found to include it. Further, Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion shows that while they might be reliable for the overall death count they are not reliable for specific incidents. BilledMammal (talk) 07:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither are the IDF. Selfstudier (talk) 12:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Forensic Architecture has a new analysis out saying it was really Israel that bombed that hospital all along. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 03:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV template

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I'm concerned about the neutrality of this article; it presents the Palestinian perspective as being the truth, while downplaying the Israeli perspective. However, that doesn't align with reliable sources, who currently say "we don't know" and that there are "competing perspectives".

For example, the article says in what has been characterized as a massacre. "Characterized" typically means that what is said is the truth, but this doesn't align with our sources - while some sources have called this a massacre, the majority have currently declined to do so in their own voice. What we should be saying is that specific sources have called this a massacre.

Further, it downplays aspects such as that Israel organized this aid convoy.

I think the article needs substantial rework to be compliant with WP:NPOV. BilledMammal (talk) 23:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely needs the template at this point. JM (talk) 23:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead, tag the article, we are used to that by now. Selfstudier (talk) 23:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel organizing the convoy just confirms Israeli responsibility for the deaths, whether they killed them or not. Selfstudier (talk) 23:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment: So, that’s it? You suggest something, the very same editor agrees with you, and then you proceed with the edit? No one is noticing this behavior? Really strange things are happening on this page. I’m getting out of here. Fortunately time will tell everything. Even though not by editors, this page is being under the scrutinity of thousands of readers. Happy editing, RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow, looking at that thread I'm starting to think maybe we should add a WP:CANVASSING warning in addition to a NPOV template. Tdmurlock (talk) 01:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the chances of Twitter users being extended confirmed, which is required to post on this talk page and enforced by software, is pretty low. So I do not anticipate that canvassing from that particular Twitter thread will be a problem. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SOP. And we are already discussing the sources up above but because that argument is being lost, start anew down here instead. Selfstudier (talk) 23:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Selfstudier, sorry if I’m being dumb, but what’s SOP? Apparently not WP:SOP, isn’t it? RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Standard Operating Procedure. Don't get your way, tag. Selfstudier (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support the NPOV template, but I do support characterizing the event as a massacre given the number of sources that characterize it as such. This is an event that recently occurred--I added the current event template--and is still under investigation, and clearly will require subsequent editing and consensus to be NPOV-compliant. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. What does the convoy being Israeli have to do with absolutely anything? Salmoonlight (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the article already, idk what that's about tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 00:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment: Overall this is a weak justification for adding a template. What exactly is biased? Point to specific sections instead of just saying that the entire article takes pro-Palestinian media at their word, which it clearly doesn't judging by its current title. Salmoonlight (talk) 00:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have read through the lead of the article, and there are very clearly quantification issues. One such example is when the lead reads This incident, which has been referred to as the Flour Massacre in media. Only one source is provided for this claim, raising the question how much of the "media" is making this reference. The lead sentence also has such an issue, saying in what has been characterized as a massacre, followed by only two sources. At the very least, that should be changed to in what has been characterized as a massacre by some sources, or (far more preferably, IMO) we should wait to add that in until the move discussion above has concluded. Gödel2200 (talk) 00:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, there are visible NPOV and canvassing issues (the latter not necessarily, but probably enough for a tag).FortunateSons (talk) 11:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are gaming the arbitration enforcement procedure to make other editors submit to your preferred version or eliminate editors who do not agree with you. I am not the only one calling you out of gaming the system. I think this kind of behavior deserves broader attention from other editors. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 12:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, all of these reports could eventually boomerang on BilledMammal. Salmoonlight (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the tag, edit summary "Removing POV tag, the article simply does not have a significant POV problem, and the talk page justification for the tag is not specific enough or actionable. There is also already a 'current event' tag and the article has been and will continue to change drastically. Specific POV issues can be dealt with by improving them directly or by discussing them." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And BilledMammal restored the tag. Simply saying "Multiple editors have expressed agreement with this tag; please get consensus for its removal per the tag instructions."
What specifically needs to be done for the tag to be removed in your opinion, @BilledMammal?
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The most significant issue is with the lede - we need to give equal prominence and validity to the Israeli and Palestinian perspectives, in accordance with our sources who have not yet taken a position is which is more accurate. We don't do this at the moment, saying when Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks on al-Rashid street at the Al-Nabulsi roundabout to the west of Gaza City. BilledMammal (talk) 09:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"We need to give equal prominence and validity to the Israeli and Palestinian perspectives."
This isn't true at all. What you're describing is WP:FALSEBALANCE.
What is wrong with the sentence "when Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks on al-Rashid street at the Al-Nabulsi roundabout to the west of Gaza City"?
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly this is ridiculous and the tag should be removed per Template:POV which reads "You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true: [...] #2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FALSEBALANCE would be if we gave balance not present in media sources; given that most media sources haven't taken a position on this yet, us not taking a position would be true balance.
The issue with that sentence is that there isn't a consensus in media sources that Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks. Israeli forces opened fire at one point, but it is unclear what the circumstances of that point were, and most reliable sources have not taken a position.
The neutrality issue that myself and others see is clear; you may disagree with it, but that isn't sufficient justification to remove the tag. BilledMammal (talk) 11:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks." Is it not established that this is what happened? It does not say why the soldiers opened fire, only that they did, which you yourself admit that they did, saying yourself "Israeli forces opened fire at one point".
The purpose of adding a tag is to identify an issue so that other editors can fix it. I am here trying to fix the purported issue but I'm still not seeing what the issue is.
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is with who were attempting to get food from aid trucks; reliable sources aren’t in consensus on this.
In addition, it implies that they all, or at least most, died due to Israeli gunfire, this doesn’t align with the consensus of reliable sources, which haven’t come to a conclusion on this question. BilledMammal (talk) 11:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The issue is with "who were attempting to get food from aid trucks"; reliable sources aren’t in consensus on this." - Are they not? Was getting food from the aid trucks not the reason for the amassing of the crowd of people?
"It implies that they all, or at least most, died due to Israeli gunfire." - It does not imply that, although that the shooting caused a panic in the crowd resulting in additional casualities should probably be added to the opening paragraph.
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 12:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All sources I have seen agree on those basic facts, and there are no comments about why they fired or how many deaths were caused, meaning that NPOV is kept intact. Also, the very next paragraph outlines the disagreement between sides as to what happened. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:24, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just ignore the tag, those are always being added, it is more important to edit than argue about a tag, even if it is nonsense. Selfstudier (talk) 12:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the advice, really, but I won't stand for the abuse of tags to discredit an important article and it's unfortunate that more isn't done about POV pushing in this contentious topic area. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 12:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Every time any article makes Israel look bad, tags get added by pro Israeli editors, justified or not. Waste of energy arguing over them. Look at Weaponization of antisemitism, for instance, tag city. Selfstudier (talk) 12:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing that out, I'll go try to fix that article and remove the tags there next. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There were very obvious NPOV issues in the lead around a day ago. In my comment above, I listed some statements that were vaguely quantifying claims. In addition, the infobox previously stated that this was a massacre, but discussion is still ongoing as to whether we should label it as such. However, both of these issues have been fixed. The claim that we should not say "when Israeli forces opened fire on civilians who were attempting to get food from aid trucks on al-Rashid street at the Al-Nabulsi roundabout to the west of Gaza City" in the lead because "we need to give equal prominence and validity to the Israeli and Palestinian perspectives", is simply false. I'm not sure what other "perspectives" are being mentioned, but all of the sources listed in the lead, and in the "Event" section of the article make it clear the civilians were there to get food. The statement in question does not imply that all the civilian casualties were injured by the gunfire, but rather that they were injured after the gunfire started. This accounts for the civilians who may have been injured by a crowd crush, or in other ways. Right now, I am simply not seeing any NPOV issues with the lead, and will remove the tag if no other issues are identified. Gödel2200 (talk) 16:31, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should this talk page have a WP:Canvassing warning?

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in the discussion directly above this one, @RodRabelo7 posted a link to this twitter thread which consists of twitter users bellyaching about the current state of the article with, lemme see here... 20k+ likes and 8k+ retweets. Should we add a warning to the talk page stating that this page has become a target for WP:CANVASSING and potential WP:MEATPUPPET-ry? I've never personally seen such an obvious offwiki response to an article, so I'm not sure exactly what the best actions to take here are. Cheers! Tdmurlock (talk) 01:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO, no need of it. Both the article and the talk page are correctly protected. By the way, I was not the first to post that link. Regards, RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If someone wanted to edit this article they would need to have extended-protected permissions first. Out of all the people who interacted with that post, how many of them would realistically meet that requirement? Salmoonlight (talk) 01:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think a broad "canvass" warning is not required, but I've added Template:Not a ballot to the requested move. BilledMammal (talk) 03:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be in favour of that, barring a better alternative measure. FortunateSons (talk) 11:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need a full canvass warning because this page is ECP and there isn't any clear votestacking effect visible at the moment, but I support BilledMammal's addition of {{Not a ballot}} to this discussion. We can always tag !votes if we think they have been canvassed to this discussion. User3749 (talk) 16:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Revert

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This with edit summary "It is customary to apply an article with his name in bold" which is not the case for descriptive titles, also "The Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incident refers to an incident..." is kind of stupid. Selfstudier (talk) 11:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I edited that part a little to remove the redundancy. Feedback on my change is welcome. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request March 4, 2024

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Please include the fact that the civilians who were killed were unarmed. Daddyelectrolux (talk) 14:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 15:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Deir el-Balah bombing" listed at Redirects for discussion

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The redirect Deir el-Balah bombing has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § Deir el-Balah bombing until a consensus is reached. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended protected request (pillage)

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  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}): In the talk page, I want to add a new topic, suggesting changing the terminology from "attempting to get food" to "pillage".
  • Why it should be changed: Because although this is a tragedy which is undeniably horrendous, all news sources unanimously reported that these people were not approaching the trucks "to get" the supplies but rather to pillage them (one might say rob, but in the absence of a sovereign power the term should be robbed). Wikipedia must stick to the NPOV when describing the hard facts.
  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): See for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkblP7cxMAI , but also the video itself - it's clear that the truck is driving on the road, not unloading anything or distributing.

--Amir Segev Sarusi (talk) 10:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. The source (Channel 4 report on YouTube) doesn't use the word "pillage". Please only make such request when the majority of reliable sources actually uses the word "pillage", not base on your personal observation. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 10:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nonetheless, they're not depicting them as people that are going to get food, but rather to take it forcibly (they specifically says that had we been in their shoes we would do the same - meaning that they're not acting legally). See also for example The Guardian, which is by no means pro-Israeli, explaining that a Palestinian witness reported "hungry Palestinians pulling boxes of flour and canned food off aid trucks, scattering the crowd."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/29/gaza-aid-trucks-death-toll-explainer
You may oppose the word "pillage" and offer a different wording, but you cannot leave it as it is now. The current article seems as if these people were getting to an aid truck addressed to them to get food. This is not what happened. --Amir Segev Sarusi (talk) 15:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The statement "you cannot leave it as it is now" is incorrect. Editors can decide to leave it as it is now. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This edit request has been answered. Selfstudier (talk) 16:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Any more comment that is about your personal observation instead of the actual language used in the reliable source will be seen as original research and constitute violation of not forum policy. Any more such comment on contentious topic talk page will be removed instantly and may result in a topic ban. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 00:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Conflicting statements by Israel

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Should it be noted in the article that “…according to Israel, they mostly died in a stampede after IDF soldiers fired warning shots in the air when a mob endangered them in two related incidents.” which would mean that they did not shoot anyone, while simultaneously Israel has said that “…fewer than ten of the deaths directly resulted from Israeli fire.” which means that, though they are not claiming responsibility, they did in fact admit to shooting some of the victims? MountainDew20 (talk) 05:01, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If there are reliable sources for this, then yes it should. BilledMammal (talk) 05:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The quoted statements are from the article itself, the first being from the heading and the second being from the “Investigations” section, and both of the statements have sources to back them up. MountainDew20 (talk) 05:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
while conflictingly also stating I don’t think the claim that this is conflicting is supported either explicitly or implicitly by the sources; "mostly died in a stampede" means some did not die in the stampede. BilledMammal (talk) 05:27, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The statements by Mark Regev ("It appears to be a tragedy, but I can tell you Israel does not appear to be involved in any way. … We are not aware that the IDF has caused casualties at all."), by the IDF on Twitter ("This morning humanitarian aid trucks entered northern Gaza, residents surrounded the trucks and looted the supplies being delivered. As a result of the pushing, trampling and being run over by the trucks, dozens of Gazans were killed and injured."), and arguably by Eylon Levy ("My heart goes out to the civilians who got trampled in a stampede") all conflict with the admission of shooting. The first and last are currently cited in the article.—Carwil (talk) 23:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New Report by The Centre for Media Monitoring

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The Centre for Media Monitoring (CfMM) has just released Media Bias Gaza 2023-24’, exposing significant biases in media coverage. CfMM analysed news coverage surrounding the following emotive search terms: atrocity, atrocities, barbaric, barbarism, butcher, butchered, butchering, horrific, horrifying, massacre, massacres, massacring, massacred, murderous, slaughter, slaughtered, slaughtering.

Language [TV Broadcast] • Where emotive language is used, Israelis are about 11 times more likely to be referred to as victims of attacks, compared to Palestinians. • In broadcast TV clips, 2 out of every 3 emotive terms used were for Israeli deaths. Just 1 in 10 were used for Palestinian deaths. • Over 70% of the term’s atrocities, slaughter and massacre were used in reference to the attacks against Israelis. • Terms used to describe the deaths of Palestinians are sometimes qualified with phrases such as “what they say is a massacre.”

Concerns were also raised by BBC journalists regarding the Corporation’s inconsistent use of language. Andromedean (talk) 13:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bias hiding in plain sight: Decades of analyses suggest US media skews anti-Palestinian (29 February, The Conversation) Selfstudier (talk) 13:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 February 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Flour massacre. There is a consensus to move to a title with 'massacre' in it. Initial source analysis indicates that the event was not referred to as a 'massacre'. However as presented by several editors here over the course of the discussion, the word has been used as widely as it is not to refer to the event. Therefore a move to at least the proposed title, Al-Rashid massacre is supported.

As to whether to call it Al-Rashid massacre or Flour massacre, this was not fully fleshed out due to how sources had been rapidly reporting on the event, and still are. However, if the last bits of this discussion are of any indications, Flour massacre is descriptive of the event and recognizable. There is also an ambiguity in referring the event by location given that there are other locations with the same name, i.e. Al-Rasheed Street and Al-Rashid, Baghdad. As such a further move to Flour massacre is appropriate. In interest of timeliness and growing perception of the current title being too vague, per WP:BARTENDER, this discussion is closed with a move to Flour massacre.

If there is a contention as to whether the article should be at Flour massacre or Al-Rashid massacre or any other title with 'massacre' in it, a follow-up RM can be open without further discussion with me. – robertsky (talk) 13:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (RM 29 February 2024)

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Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incident → Al-Rashid massacre – If it really did happen then its not an "incident", its a massacre of civillians that relied on humanitarian aid. Not calling an attack on civillians that killed 112 people a massacre is supporting Israeli propaganda. Lukt64 (talk) 23:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not extended confirmed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
WP:ECR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

*Support. As sources refer to it as a massacre, or they quote that people are calling it a massacre. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: Proposed title is more accurate than the almost painfully euphemistic "humanitarian aid incident". CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 04:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - and I am hoping that the current title was only used as there was not enough information in reputable media at the time. The IDF opened fire on the crowd, resulting in “less than ten casualties” according to the IDF, who are known liars, with the rest attributed to the resulting stampede and people killed by fleeing vehicles. If you fire a weapon into a crowd, killing civilians, and then more civilians are killed as a direct result of this action, then you are responsible for their deaths. This was a massacre. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 04:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, and frankly WP:SNOW. There's no justifiable reason to call it an "incident", it's cloaking the reality of it in euphemism --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 05:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Additional Comment: the page with the current title was started by a user (@OliveTree39:) that does not meet the extended confirmed user protection level the page was later given due to the Israel-Palestine conflict contentious topic designation, whereas the first move was made by a user that does --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 06:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose and I never use adjectives in my !votes but absolutely no one has cited anything that shows this is commonly called a massacre. I searched up the incident and found these results: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. 2 of those sources don't even say "massacre" once, the other three only attribute it to Hamas, Fatah, and Qatar. Meanwhile, the term incident is used in all sources multiple times, unattributed. No one bothered to look at and use the sources on this. Absolutely no arguments on policy whatsoever. Wikipedia is supposed to function on policy, not on opinions devoid of policy. JM (talk) 06:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you serious? So you need a source calling it "a massacre" to prove that it is?
    You don't need a source, 120+ people killed and 750+ more injured IT'S A MASSACRE.
    I Support to change the title in to massacre. IDF are known liars when they are the perpetrator of mass murders of a civilians. As another user said above, even if a truck rammed some of the victims it was still the consequence of the IDF opening fire on the crowd. Gianluigi02 (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia going by the reliable sources is part the second of five pillars. Unless you can show anything with sources, I can dismiss it out of hand (Hitchen's razor); this also means I won't bother engage with the rest of your comment. JM (talk) 19:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I completely agree with JM's claims. The language used regarding this event in most sources, doesn't justify renaming/moving this article to anything with "massacre" in its title. HilbertSpaceExplorer (talk) 08:49, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Reliable sources state that it is unsure what led to the casualties. The Economist, for example, says that "As with many events in the war between Israel and Hamas, the facts are destined to remain fiercely contested." By using the word massacre, Wikipedia adopts Hamas' version. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I've already shown above, the IDF have admitted that their firing into the crowd caused deaths. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 06:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on the sources I read, The IDF clearly said that the shooting that was carried out was a "warning shot" and was not aimed at the civilians who threatened the forces. Even if we assume that there were casualties from the shooting, it is a small minority of the civilians killed, and certainly it was not a massacre.Eladkarmel (talk) 06:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "It is a small minority of the civilians killed" Even if only a number of deaths were caused by the IDF and the rest died in the stampede (statement that has no sources confirming it, but let's put ourselves in that case), it wouldn't make it less of a massacre. Two of the most well-known massacres in the United States are the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre (7 deaths) and the Boston Massacre (9 deaths). Massacre is defined by the killing of multiple civilians regardless of number. BirdCities (talk) 02:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Even if we assume that there were casualties from the shooting, it is a small minority of the civilians killed

    Who/what killed the rest of the civilians? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 06:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    According to the IDFs initial investigation, a stampede.Eladkarmel (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm all for going with what the RSes say rather than jumping to our own conclusions, but I can't in good faith say that the IDF is a remotely reliable source here. The Kip 07:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm in favor of waiting a few more days and getting more data. In order for it not to outcome like the accusations against the IDF for the attack on Al Ahali hospital, It turned out that according to all the evidence, it was not an IDF attack, Despite the accusations from Hamas.Eladkarmel (talk) 07:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not extended confirmed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Support. By all reasonable definitions, this was a massacre. If we can classify it as a massacre in the info box, we should be doing so in the title. Using a neutral tone when one shouldn’t be used makes the site more misleading. Describing this event as an “incident” would be like using the term “incident” instead of “attack” for the January 6 page. EvanSheppard (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Non-ECP !vote JM (talk) 08:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    According to the rules, you are not allowed to comment here. Hazooyi (talk) 07:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • :Strongly Support - From what we have seen, they were shot at for trying to get food. The accused have not provided proof of the civillans being a "threat" to them 94.204.139.36 (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Vote struck per CTOP/ECP restrictions listed above. The Kip 07:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose both proposed and current titles:
    On one hand, "massacre" isn't being extensively utilized by RSes, as detailed above. We don't want to engage in OR here; if conclusive/widely-endorsed evidence emerges that the IDF indiscriminately fired into the crowd emerges and is taken up by RSes, I'll support the title, but RSes seem to be taking a cautious tone regarding circumstances at the moment (perhaps to avoid the issues surrounding the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion's initial reporting).
    On the other, I sympathize with commenters that feel "incident" is far too euphemistic for an event in which over 100 people died violently, which definitively happened regardless of whether it was Israeli soldiers, a stampede, or panicked truck drivers.
    The question is what do we switch to? "Disaster," perhaps? The Kip 07:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps "Disaster" or "Mass casualty event"? The term "incident" is too vague, while "massacre" is too early as this is an ongoing event. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I'd urge editors to think deeply about the ways language has been used during this particular conflict. Analyses by openDemocracy and The Intercept have suggested that the word "massacre" is almost never used to describe mass casualty events of Palestinians by organizations like NYT, WaPo, BBC, and LA Times [9] [10]. WP:5P5 says sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making exceptions, and it just seems to me that the shooting and death of starving people seeking food does warrant stronger language than "incident", even if that's what the above-mentioned organizations are calling it. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 07:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose jumping to conclusions about the exact nature of this incident, hours after it happened, before any inquiry was done, and giving it the title "massacre" is clearly not done out of search for truth. Oyoyoy (talk) 07:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Wikipedia is "not news" and this claim about a massacre is pure speculation at this point. I would say calling it "stampede" makes more sense. Hazooyi (talk) 07:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    At best, that's swinging to the other side, because there is reporting by credible sources that there was a mass shooting by the IDF, not just a stampede --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 08:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per JM. The incident has not yet been investigated and the assertion regarding a massacre is currently a mere speculation. Indeed, no title of some RS sources I looked at, uses the word massacre to describe the incident:
    • Guardian - 112 dead in chaotic scenes as Israeli troops open fire near aid trucks
    • CNN - Many victims at Gaza aid site were rammed by trucks in chaos after Israeli fire, local journalist says
    • NYT - What We Know About the Deaths Near the Gaza Aid Convoy
    • BBC - Israel-Gaza war: More than 100 reported killed in crowd near Gaza aid convoy
    So, a very sad incident, but not a massacre. GidiD (talk) 09:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As reported here, sources like the NYT and Washington Post simply pretty much never use words like "massacre", "slaughter", and "horrific" with regard to Palestinians, while they use them frequently with regard to Israelis. So citing them as evidence that this wasn't a massacre probably isn't best in terms of WP:NPOV. Dylanvt (talk) 00:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - There are sources that call this a massacre, and "incident" is too vague. Some users have pointed out that it isn't confirmed who the perpetrators of this were, but literally even the IDF themselves now confirmed they did this because the aid seekers were, according to them, approaching them in a way that "threatened" them. There are also many reliable sources that claim this was done by IDF. Also, since we use titles like Be'eri massacre, this is in a very similar nature and should be described the same. User3749 (talk) 09:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Reading that article (reader discretion advised), I do not see in the slightest that such hell on earth as that could possibly be considered "very similar in nature" to this event at all. I do not see in the slightest that any of the horrific attacks of October 7 like that could be at all considered "very similar in nature" to this event. JM (talk) 09:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    How is that not very similar in nature? They were both targeting civilians, and I can't see how October 7 is not related to this event. Can you please elaborate? User3749 (talk) 10:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is worse because one can expect bad behavior from Hamas but not from the outfit claiming that they are the epitome of morality and who are consistently now demonstrating that they are in fact on a par with Hamas in the final analysis. Selfstudier (talk) 16:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I very strongly disagree with the two claims above that this is worse than any of the absolutely horrific October 7 attacks and I find it hard to believe that people are even making them at all. Either there is a huge lack of knowledge about October 7 or there is a huge lack of knowledge about this event, because I don't think those claims could be made with knowledge of both. JM (talk) 19:19, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yet they are made regardless. Selfstudier (talk) 19:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    How is shooting starving civilians trying to get food any better? Salmoonlight (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is equal if not even worse compared to 10/7. I fail to understand how deliberately shooting civilians trying to just get humanitarian aid is any better than what happened on 10/7. And also, again, can you please explain why you disagree? User3749 (talk) 03:28, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The fact that the three of you above believe that invading civilian villages, torture-murdering children, killing everyone encountered, going into shelters and killing entire families, filming it, livestreaming it, doing it with joy, bragging about it, desecrating the corpses, burning down houses, using rape as a weapon of war, and taking civilians including many children hostage, as what happened in places like Be'eri, is better than the Hamas account of IDF soldiers firing into a gathered crowd, is something that is very, very astonishing to me, since I can see so clearly that it is so much worse. JM (talk) 04:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not going to argue that this is "worse than 10/7", but I feel like your acknowledgement of this incident being a "Hamas account of IDF soldiers firing into a gathered crowed" in spite of the article itself citing various articles with anecdotes from those unrelated to "Hamas" comes across as bad faith; and especially so with partial admittance from the IDF themselves and media criticisms leveraged towards the edited videos they gave. Sarcataclysmal (talk) 08:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    IDF is doing the same, killing innocent civilians indiscriminately, using starvation as a weapon and trying to prevent access to humanitarian aid. This is a prime example of the last. Plus, it isn't "Hamas account" only, there is clear evidence the IDF perpetrated this massacre and as we all know, the IDF often covers up their war crimes. I won't go any further than this because it's not the subject of this discussion and it's starting to get off topic. Please look into both sides, not just one. User3749 (talk) 09:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey, this sounds like the debunked IOF propaganda that was proven to be lies (e.g., beheaded babies, mass rape based on one testimony and ZAKA fake accounts, burned houses and cars caused by Israeli tank shells, ravine goers killed by Israeli copters, etc.). C'on! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Using an offensive nickname for the Israeli military is not helping your case. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Let’s keep this polite. Referring to the IDF/Israeli Military as IOF is not great, let’s stick to appropriate language? Additionally, at least some of your claims are highly disputed at this time, particularly about Israeli friendly fire. Do you have an RS for that? FortunateSons (talk) 21:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    None of that justifies killing civilians, especially children, in return. Salmoonlight (talk) 19:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*Move. Support the move, but can't agree with the "Massacre" title. Neither calling just an "incident" nor showcasing these as a "massacre" is appropriate imho. But the "incident" should indeed be changed. Imperial[AFCND] 09:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support:- Can't unsee this as a massacre for more. Strongly support the move to either Flour Massacre or per nom. Calling this as just an "incident" is unacceptable.Imperial[AFCND] 14:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The media is starting to call this the Flour Massacre. [11]. Only 7200 results on Google Search so far, but this title may see increasing usage in the next day or two. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Flour Massacre is up to 23,000 hits on Google. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Flour Massacre is now at 112,000 hits on Google. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Flour Massacre" is now 3,060,000 hits. User3749 (talk) 08:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm only getting 142,000 hits at https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Flour+Massacre%22 –Novem Linguae (talk) 09:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, it seems like I was doing the search improperly because I didn't do it in quotation marks (putting it in quotation marks makes it a must include). But for me doing it in quotation marks shows 139000 hits. User3749 (talk) 09:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. There's no reason to call it an "incident". 112 unarmed civilians were killed, it is a full-blown massacre.Sinucep (talk) 11:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Calling this an incident would be the same as causing one of the Hamas-led massacres as an incident because Hamas may deny or belittle the impact of the event. Even the Israelis themselves admitted to shooting dead at least 10 people.ThePaganUK (talk) 13:06, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This article was created by a non EC editor which might explain the milquetoast title. Here's the New Arab headlining it as a massacre and citing "Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor confirm that Israeli army gunfire was responsible for most deaths in a massacre of Palestinian civilians waiting for humanitarian aid in western Gaza on Thursday". Biased perhaps, but still.Selfstudier (talk) 13:39, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Carwil. Skitash (talk) 14:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Carwil + we're not arbiters here, we follow what the sources say. Most of them either use the word "massacre" or describe what is one. "Incident" is an euphemism. Rkieferbaum (talk) 14:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Calling this an "incident" is too much of a WP:EUPHEMISM, especially considering it's not currently the most common way of describing this (as far as I can tell). XTheBedrockX (talk) 14:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Even the New York Times, generally totally indifferent to Palestinian suffering, and willing to carry water for Israel no matter the cost to the publication's reputation, has begun to refer to the events as a "disaster". Using "incident" places Wikipedia behind reality and at least 12 hours out of sync with the credible sources. It's urgent we close this discussion and make a change, the current title is unacceptable. — Mainly 14:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move, as "incident" is a disprespectful euphemism, but "Massacre" might not be entirely correct. How about a compromise: Al-Rashid massacre and crowd crush? It seems clear that some people died from IDF gunfire (massacre), whereas others might have died from crowd crush in the chaos. If there is no consensus to include "massacre" in the title, then I would at least support to replace "incident" by "crowd crush" or "disaster" (although I don't think it would be enough). --Gerrit CUTEDH 15:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Aren't the majority or all reported deaths and injuries from Israeli gunfire and from people being crushed by Israeli tanks? Crowd crush seems inaccurate. — Mainly 15:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Are they? If we have evidence for that, then I would support "Massacre". But from what I've seen, this is currently not publicly clear. --Gerrit CUTEDH 15:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Doctors have said the dead overwhelmingly had gunshot wounds. UN observers have confirmed the same in regards to the survivors. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 17:37, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support as the United Nations call it a massacre. English language sources rarely call it an incident. Some do and some don't call it a massacre; some have alleged pro-Israel biases, others alleged pro-Palestine biases. The UN is the closest we have to a neutral arbiter. I withdraw my earlier support for crowd crush. --Gerrit CUTEDH 09:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, and wait. As comments have shown, "massacre" is not extensively used, and Wikipedia should avoid evaluatively naming contentious topics. Information about this tragedy will clear up imminently, and so too will the media coverage be better unified to support a good name for this article. Zanahary (talk) 17:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—With three sourced reports from three hospitals, we now have 100 people injured with gunshot wounds (Kamal Adwan Hospital), the majority of "dozens of dead bodies" hit with gunshots or shrapnel (al-Shifa), and 142 with gunshot wounds (Al-Awda). We're now talking about significant violent loss of life, whether or not it was preceded (as the IDF claims) by a crowd stampede, or whether the shooting provoked the stampede (as unnamed witnesses cited here allege). Aside from the involved IDF, I have only seen one unnamed witness cited by the BBC state that "most" were killed by a stampede, something that might have been locally or temporarily true, early on in the day.--Carwil (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, though a move to something else is warranted, as "incident" is woefully inadequate. Even so, WP:CONTENTIOUS is very clear on the use of words like "massacre":
    Value-laden labels – such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion – may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.
    The NPOV section on naming conventions for events provides guidance, stating under point three that if there is no common name for the event and no generally accepted descriptive word, use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications. Sources right now have not coalesced on the term "massacre" to describe this:
    BBC News headline: Israel-Gaza war: UN chief urges probe into aid convoy tragedy
    CNN headline: Germany urges Israel to "fully investigate" food aid site tragedy, as international condemnation grows
    The New York Times headline: Deaths of Gazans Desperate for Food Prompt Fresh Calls for Cease-Fire
    The Guardian headline: Israel faces mounting pressure to investigate Gaza food aid deaths
    Al Arabiya headline: Calls for probe, ceasefire follow Israeli gunfire near aid convoy in Gaza
    The only major source I've found that uses the term "massacre" is Al Jazeera English, with this headline: Flour massacre: How Gaza food killings unfolded, and Israel’s story changed.
    For what it's worth, I personally think that massacre is an appropriate term, and that the Israeli military bears responsibility even if not a single person killed in the event was killed by an Israeli bullet, since the shooting was without question what prompted the chaos that caused the deaths in question. I also think that many of the headlines from Western outlets (calling this a tragedy or referring to the deaths of Gazans) are worse than the current article title, as they obscure any culpability or involvement of Israel in what occurred. For the purposes of this discussion, though, it doesn't matter what I or any individual editor thinks it should be called, but rather what a preponderance of reliable sources call this event. I fully expect that sources will gravitate towards that nomenclature, but moving the article for that reason would be premature and thus go against WP:CRYSTAL. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 17:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Editing to add: it looks like the page has been unilaterally moved to Nabulsi roundabout aid truck killings at 2024 March 1, 18:05 UTC. I actually think this is a very good interim title; however, this move should have waited until the discussion was closed. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 18:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It has already been moved back, apparently. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks; I saw the WP:RMUM reversion not two minutes after posting the comment. Appreciate you letting me know. Despite the (warranted) revert, I do believe Nabulsi roundabout aid truck killings can work as an interim title. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 18:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per all above, and especially given the analysis provided by CarmenEsparzaAmoux. Mount Patagonia (talk • contributions) 18:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving away from "incident" per all above, which completely minimizes the events, although "killings" (current title as of me writing this comment) is much better without being emotionally loaded. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Something that includes "massacre" in view of prevalence in RS or in the alternative, Gaza aid convoy killings or similar, since although it is in fact a massacre for which Israel is clearly responsible, it seems that absent a full investigation, the precise facts are not going to be established any time soon. Selfstudier (talk) 19:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Gaza aid convoy killings as well as an interim title. Jebiguess (talk) 20:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per above. Else Flour Massacre. The claim that reliable sources don't refer to it as a massacre is unfounded. Al Jazeera, The Hindu, Hindustan Times, The New Arab, WION, France 24, Daily Sabah, The National News, ReliefWeb, Democracy Now!, The New Humanitarian, Anadolu Agency, Morocco World News, Jacobin, Palestine Chronicle, Fox 11 Los Angeles, The Peninsula Qatar, Muslim Council of Britain, etc. etc. etc. Dylanvt (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Two issues. First, many of these sources don't refer to it as a massacre. Second, many are unreliable:
    1. Al Jazeera - Refers to it as a massacre
    2. The Hindu - Does not refer to it as a massacre, merely quotes others who do
    3. Hindustan Times - Does not refer to it as a massacre, merely quotes others who do
    4. The New Arab - Refers to it as a massacre
    5. WION - Does not refer to as a massacre, uses the word only in quotation marks
    6. France24 - Does not refer to it as a massacre, merely quotes others who do
    7. Daily Sabah - Does not refer to it as a massacre, merely quotes others who do (Turkish government paper, same issues as Anadolu Agency)
    8. The National News - Refers to it as a massacre (Abu Dhabi government paper, issues with it toeing the government line)
    9. Relief Web, publishing an article by The Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), Al Mezan, and Al-Haq - Refers to it as a massacre (no indication they are reliable)
    10. Democracy Now - Dead link, but not a reliable source
    11. The New Humanitarian - Does not refer to it as a massacre
    12. Anadolu Agency - Does not refer to it as a massacre, merely quotes others who do (Considered generally unreliable for this topic at WP:RSP)
    13. Morocco World News - Refers to it as a masssacre
    14. Jacobin - Refers to it as a massacre (We are cautioned about how to use this source at WP:RSP)
    15. Palestine Chronicle - Does not refer to it as a massacre, merely quotes others who do
    16. Fox 11 Los Angeles - Refers to it as a masssacre (Considered generally unreliable for this topic at WP:RSP)
    17. The Peninsula Qatar - Refers to it as a masssacre
    18. Muslim Council of Britain - Does not refer to it as a massacre, merely quotes others who do (no indication they are reliable)
    Note that per WP:HEADLINES, I only considered what these articles said in the body, not in the headlines.
    A lot of support !votes have been based on this evidence, but when the evidence is reviewed it turns out that not only does it not support the proposed title, it actually opposes it. BilledMammal (talk) 22:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    COMMONNAME doesn't require a source to refer to a topic by its name in its own voice; rather, the common name is determined by its prevalence—rather than "usage by the source in its own voice"—in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    First, I don't think any of the sources use "Al-Rashid massacre", so this wasn't an argument for WP:COMMONNAME.
    Second, that wasn't the argument that Dylanvt or the people who supported them made; they said these sources referred to the event as a massacre.
    Third, bizarre interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME, but regardless, common name requires reliable usage - quotes are only reliable for the fact that people said them, and not for the content. Further, the relevant policy is WP:POVNAMING, which says If a name is widely used in reliable sources (particularly those written in English) and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers, it may be used even though some may regard it as biased. BilledMammal (talk) 23:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that's a misapplication of WP:HEADLINES. It cautions against using factual information in the headline, but "massacre" is not a factual statement, but rather how it is framed. If they're framing it with "massacre", and aren't attributing the scare quotes in the headline, that's still their own voice framing it as such. Compare these fictional headlines I thought up: 112 killed, over 750 wounded in "massacre" while trying to access food and 112 killed, over 750 wounded trying to access food, "massacre" says Gaza Health Ministry. Without attribution, the former is using scare quotes to waffle and technically not write it in their voice, but it still clearly wants it being called a massacre, whereas the latter presents the information in their own voice and then says that some group is calling it a massacre, plainly distancing themselves from the label but still using it to draw clicks --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 00:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We are required to base our articles, and their titles on reliable sources - and there is a consensus that headlines aren't reliable sources.
    It's not relevant, given the above, but you misunderstand how such quotes works - see WP:SCAREQUOTES. BilledMammal (talk) 00:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What are you talking about? The New Humanitarian, for instance, literally headlines the piece as "Gaza convoy massacre, Sudan aid challenges, and Shell’s oil legacy: The Cheat Sheet", and later says again "Gaza toll passes 30,000 as 100 killed in aid convoy massacre".
    Palestine Chronicle also has in its headline "Massacre at Food Line – Israel Kills, Wounds Nearly 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza", and regularly calls it a massacre (often the Flour Massacre) in other articles published since.
    Daily Sabah's linked headline also says "World condemns Israel as forces massacre Gazans seeking food aid". Anadolu says "Palestinians dispute Israeli narrative of latest Gaza City massacre". etc. None of those sources put the word in scare quotes or actual quotes. Did you just fail to notice that, or are you intentionally lying to try to make your point, hoping people won't click the links and see that what you're claiming isn't true? Dylanvt (talk) 00:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @BilledMammal: I would also add that you've made over 30 contributions to this discussion, which could easily be construed as WP:BLUDGEONING. You are not meant to respond to every comment in a discussion. Dylanvt (talk) 00:42, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, Fox 11 Los Angeles, being a local affiliate, is considered distinct from Fox News at WP:RSP. So it's not considered generally unreliable. Dylanvt (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said, I didn't consider what any of the articles said in their headlines, because we are required to base our articles, and their titles, or reliable sources, and per WP:HEADLINES headlines are not reliable. In addition, many of your sources don't use "massacre" in either the headline or the body.
    Please also strike the claim that I'm bludgeoning; I don't know where you got the 30 "contributions" figure from, but its a gross exaggeration. BilledMammal (talk) 00:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As of this writing, I count 38 comments signed by you on this page. 13 of those are in the RM section --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 01:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Literally all of the sources I included use massacre in either the headline or the body. A couple, to be fair, only in the headline. But the vast majority use it in the body, and only a few use it in quotes or scare quotes. The following use it in the body, and not in quotes:
    1. Al Jazeera
    2. The New Arab
    3. France 24
    4. Daily Sabah
    5. National News
    6. Relief Web
    7. The New Humanitarian
    8. Anadolu Agency
    9. Morocco World News
    10. Jacobin
    11. Palestine Chronicle
    12. Fox 11 Los Angeles
    13. The Peninsula Qatar
    14. Muslim Council of Britain
    That's 14 of the 17 surviving links I initially provided. So your claim that "many of these sources don't refer to it as a massacre" is demonstrably false. I've also provided more further down this discussion, and many more can be found online for anyone who chooses to search. Dylanvt (talk) 01:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you quote where France 24, The Daily Sabah, The New Humanitarian, Anadolu Agency, the Palestine Chronicle, and the Muslim Council of Britain refer to it as a massacre outside of headlines (note that this includes sub-headlines) and quotes? I have re-reviewed the articles you linked and cannot see where they do so.
    Further, as I previously said, we are required to base our articles on reliable sources. Many of the sources you provided are not reliable.
    Finally, as I asked previously, please strike your accusation of bludgeoning this discussion. I have contributed in other discussions on this page, but that doesn't mean I'm bludgeoning this discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 01:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The source Dylanvt provided for France 24 [12] uses massacre without scare quotes. Another France 24 link [13] does use scare quotes, but the original source seems to be AFP. Wafflefrites (talk) 01:37, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that part of the France 24 article is a sub-headline and thus not reliable per WP:HEADLINES; in the body, they only use it in quotes. BilledMammal (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh yes, you are right. It was used in the sub-headline, but in the body they quote somebody else: “They described it as the flour massacre,” he said. Wafflefrites (talk) 01:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In this context, if the editors of a news platform deem it fit to call an event a "massacre" in the headline, the platform clearly deems that word appropriate. This is not the kind of language that news platforms would use accidentally. It is also not core information, as covered by WP:HEADLINES, but one descriptive term for a mass killing. Our title here is also descriptive, because there is not yet a common name, so all extant descriptive terms are available to us. Sources use massacre, as this mass slaughter of innocents obviously was, so there is no issue, NPOV or otherwise, with using this same descriptive language. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Per WP:HEADLINES: Headlines are written to grab readers' attention quickly and briefly; they may be overstated or lack context, and sometimes contain exaggerations or sensationalized claims with the intention of attracting readers to an otherwise reliable article, emphasis mine. Headlines aren't reliable, and this seems like the exact situation that the policy is referring to - where the headline contains a sensational claim that is not supported by the body. BilledMammal (talk) 09:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yet there is no obvious exaggeration or sensationalism that can be pointed to here. A massacre is simply a mass killing of innocents, which is what occurred here, so the choice of descriptive language in these headlines is entirely consist with the content. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment I wanted to add to this list as the Intercept has also referred to it as a massacre. I will caution that SOME of the sources listed by the user above are not reliable but the fact of the matter is many reliable sources do call it a massacre. The Washington Post also references the term "flour massacre" in their article. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Intercept article does explicitly refer to the event as a massacre, but the Washington Post article runs into the same problem as many of the above sources: it quotes people referring to the event as a massacre, but does not explicitly label it as such. Gödel2200 (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The main problematic support votes are the (quite significant number of) ones that say something like the move is "obvious" or "not controversial", providing next to no reasoning, or reasoning that is OR. But again, these votes shouldn't discount the many valid comments in support of the move, and these better arguments in support of the move should be the ones counted as evidence in support; a vote tally shouldn't be how we decide when to close the discussion. Gödel2200 (talk) 15:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think editors who are saying its obvious are essentially saying that 1. many sources already refer to it as such 2. the event fits the description of a massacre and 3. civilians involved describe it as such - all of which I think are valid points to be considered, as part of a purpose of a RM is to gain "request community-wide input on the retitling of the article" - while their comments might not be given strong weight they should still be considered. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are many comments that fit that description, and those are mostly not the ones I have a problem with. That being said, ones arguing that "the event fits the description of a massacre" which do not give sources, or do not reference other comments citing sources, raise concerns for me that they are OR. But the ones I really have a problem with are ones giving no reasoning at all. There are at least one vote two votes with nothing after "support", and a few others with no reasoning whatsoever after "support". Gödel2200 (talk) 15:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per nom, UN, others. Calling it an "incident" is the opposite of neutral in this case, since the killings were deliberately targeting civilians.  Mr.choppers | ✎  00:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but wait. "Incident" downplays the severity of the event, so that cannot stay. I'm also seeing a lot of circulation of the word "massacre" around on articles at this point, although it might be a little too early to make a call until more information comes out. HaapsaluYT (talk) 02:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Agreed that "incident" downplays the severity of the event, and the IDF even acknowledges that they fired into the crowd - even if they were "provoked" or "in danger" one could say the same about those involved in the Boston Massacre which only killed five. A massacre is, as defined in massacre, "an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless." which occurred here. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The Aerial footage was edited; and the Israelis refuse to show the full footage, the only possible reason is to omit evidence which is damning. Mahmoud Awadeyah, a journalist who was at the scene, told the BBC that Israeli vehicles began firing at people upon the arrival of the aid trucks. "Israelis purposefully fired at the men... they were trying to get near the trucks that had the flour," he said. "They were fired at directly and prevented people to come near those killed." Mohammed Salha, the acting director of Al-Awda Hospital, told The Associated Press that of the 176 wounded brought to the facility, 142 had gunshot wounds and the other 34 showed injuries from a stampede. Even the minority of deaths from a stampede caused by panic from gunshots is still a massacre. The Israeli's have also changed their story several times to manage the outrage. Andromedean (talk) 06:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now Right now, there aren’t enough sources using the term “massacre” for it to be the common name, so using it in the title would be a violation of NPOV at the moment. There may be a term that’s better than “incident”, but “massacre” isn’t a better term right now. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 07:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support.A massacre is, technically, any number of dead resulting from the violence of any party, above 5. Firing at or into a crowd of famished people waiting for food for their families in an area where, by all accounts, civil order has broken down because the Israeli army has no remit to set in place an administration to replace that of the vanquished Hamas (whose policemen are not in law militants, but are treated as 'terror targets' by Israel, led to multiple deaths, for which Israel is directly accountable, for starving people, if shot at, will predictably trample each other to avoid one more onslaught. 'Humanitarian aid incident' is extreme in its euphemistic sidestepping of what happened, i.e., a massacre.Nishidani (talk) 09:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Carwil. Leesandeul (talk) 15:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per Salmoonlight, Carwil, Nori2001 and CarmenEsparzaAmoux. Wiki6995 (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - per nom, this is not an "Incident", 112 civilians killed and at least 760 getting injured is not an incident. You can not kill a 112 unarmed civilians and injure almost a thousand more accidentally. Just imagine the amount of bullets fired Abo Yemen✉ 15:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Chefs-kiss (talk) 16:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose not broadly supported by RS, and potentially manipulated voting through twitter. We shouldn’t call it a massacre unless we know the specific causes of death (and neither do most western RS), so let’s wait or go for a more precise euphemism, such as mass casualty event. FortunateSons (talk) 11:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As of 2 March, the UN has confirmed the shootings, so the cause of the killings is in fact now known. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The cause of ‘many’ of the deaths are claimed to be GSWs (partially relying on EMHRM, which is a different issue).
    Unless we actually get an investigation that separates out justified killings, unjustified killings, accidental killings and death from other causes, calling it a massacre (which implies intent to kill without justification, the majority of them being killed by the IDF, etc.) and is not an accurate name (for now, subject to change). FortunateSons (talk) 12:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    People were throwing snowballs at the British during the Boston Massacre - justification is irrelevant if you are firing upon civilians. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    +1 Iskandar323 (talk) 14:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    +2 Abo Yemen✉ 14:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You should probably read our article on Boston Massacre before saying that;

    The Boston Massacre (known in Great Britain as the Incident on King Street) was a confrontation in Boston on March 5, 1770, in which nine British soldiers shot several of a crowd of three or four hundred who were harassing them verbally and throwing various projectiles. The event was heavily publicized as "a massacre" by leading Patriots such as Paul Revere and Samuel Adams.

    We use "Massacre" because it is the common name for the event, but the name was American propaganda; we describe it as a confrontation. Also, snowballs weren't all they threw - the projectiles includes clubs, stones, and snowballs. BilledMammal (talk) 14:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    i'm pretty sure that throwing clubs, stones, and snowballs isn't a justification for the killing of 300–400 people Abo Yemen✉ 14:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Five people were killed in the Boston Massacre? BilledMammal (talk) 14:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes many less in this instance, where there was no reported throwing of clubs stones and snowballs. Even if most were killed by crowd crush (reporting still out on this one), the IDF firing is the but-for cause of any stampeded that resulted, therefore who else could be culpable for the deaths? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    oh sorry my bad misread the numbers Abo Yemen✉ 15:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, physical attacks on soldiers even by people otherwise considered civilians may rise to the level where rules of engagement and international law cover permit the use of lethal force. That doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily justified here, which puts us back to the point regarding “we just don’t have the information yet” FortunateSons (talk) 14:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There are no "justified killings" here, only an occupying army killing unnarmed civilians - which would be a war crime even if they were protesting and advancing on the soldiers. It's called non-lethal force. And no, an investigation isn't required: UN confirmation is plenty. No idea what GSW is - don't use obscure acronyms. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    GSW is probably gunshot wounds. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    UN ‘confirmation’ means less than you think here, it was just a small group of people, not the General Assembly, Security Council or ICJ.
    Regarding GSW, Novem is right. EMHRM is Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor FortunateSons (talk) 14:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Good job it's the UN, medics and rights groups then - plenty of cross-referencing between relevant observers. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The UN has already confirmed that Israeli forces did indeed fire on innocent civilians and that was the cause for most of the deaths. Plus, I don't get what you mean by "justified" and "unjustified" killings, nothing in this case is justified. Let's take Israel's account that they fired on civilians because they were "threatening" them (ironically Israel at first denied that it opened fire on civilians so I don't know what this is about). It didn't elaborate on how civilians "threatened" them, and since those were all unarmed civilians, it could be nothing more than some civilians advancing or protesting against the occupying forces. Therefore, there could be nothing that really threatened the soldiers so this isn't justified. Also, please elaborate on what you mean by "GSW" and "EMHRM". User3749 (talk) 13:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I responded to another user below, but the truth is that we cannot know at this time if the IDF was fully justified, partially justified or completely unjustified. Therefore, incident, mass casualty event, or deaths are better titles than massacre in my opinion FortunateSons (talk) 14:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no "fully justified, partially justified or completely unjustified" in shooting unnarmed civilians. There are just varying degrees of military incompetence/criminality. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That legal assessment is not broadly supported by the majority of scholars (though I obviously have bias based on place and language); but it really doesn’t matter, because the issue is information, not interpretation. FortunateSons (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In what circumstances could shooting into a crowd of starving people trying to get food possibly be justified? voorts (talk/contributions) 14:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not quite a perfect summary, but gradual escalations may be permitted under certain circumstances (slightly biased source, generally reliable.) FortunateSons (talk) 14:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not a relevant source. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not to the main question, but definitely to the question by voorts. If you can find an applicable legal analysis that is specific to this, feel free to contribute. FortunateSons (talk) 15:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Shooting live ammo is not a gradual escalation and not even the IDF is claiming that such a gradual escalation was attempted. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Warning shots may be interpreted as such, as militaries generally don’t carry less-than-lethal for legal and practical reasons. FortunateSons (talk) 14:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is off-topic speculation. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Which part? FortunateSons (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are speculating (while I think you may be right in this instance) regarding what type of ammunition is carried by armed forces. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, you are right about that. Would it be OR to look for what IDF units usually carry? I only actually know about militaries where my friends served, and the IDF isn’t one of them. FortunateSons (talk) 15:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For the purposes of the body of the article, at this time, yes it would be. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That’s unfortunate, thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 15:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No problem. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 17:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per BilledMammal's summary of the sources. Would support "deaths" over "incident" 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 12:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would find that as a weak ground based on NPOV, given many Western sources are highly pro-Israel when it comes to language used and they tend to use words such as "massacre", "terrorism", and "murder" only to describe killing of Israelis. User3749 (talk) 13:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Massacre" is essentially synonymous with "mass killing", and almost all the sources do agree that there was mass killing. I don't believe most sources portray this in the passive – as "deaths" simple magically occurring. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think there might be a difference in UK English vs. US English with regards to the definition of massacre, which may be contributing to confusion and disagreements among editors, and perhaps may even explain why some publications don’t use it.
    Cambridge (UK English) defines massacre as “an act of killing a lot people”[15]
    However, Webster’s (US English) primary definition of massacre is “ the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty”[16]
    This may be why the Kissufim massacre, Psyduck music festival massacre, Alumim massacre, Netiv HaAsara massacre that nableezy linked were described as massacres even though fewer people died. The numbers might be fewer, but they were killed with intent and I think more viscerally (I haven’t read through all the articles, this is just my assumption about what happened).
    Definitely, people gathering food should not be shot at even if the intended target was their feet (which is what some sources are saying). Based on the UK definition I would agree with you, but based on the US definition, I am a little more hesitant because I am not sure the IDF showed atrocious and cruel intent to kill. The IDF purpose for this mission was to safeguard supplies to reach locations in the north. Sure, the IDF has made greenlighting aid extremely bureaucratic to the frustration of many aid organizations, but in regards to the original intent of this specific mission to bring aid to northern locations, I can’t help but to think of the phrase
    No good deed goes unpunished
    .
    Wafflefrites (talk) 14:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's an interesting theory, thanks for sharing. But does it explain the other theory about how all small Israeli incidents have been labeled as massacres, and how many Palestinian incidents, including this large one, have not been labeled a massacre? –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, that would be explained by „helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty“. Many cases of major civilian casualties on the Palestinian side are legal either based on self defence/ proportionality (even when killing civilians)/ other international law or illegal but not against people who are „helpless and unresisting“, but against people throwing rocks, remaining in areas known to be used by Hamas, or threatening IDF forces. While some of these killings are illegal and even more are wrong, they often do not meet the standard for being called a massacre. In cases where attacks are actually against „helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty“, they are often referred to as such, for example Cave of the Patriarchs massacre FortunateSons (talk) 21:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Or the Zeitoun killings, "mostly women, children and elderly", and four times the dead of Kissufim massacre. You are inventing a standard here, and further making up what is legal and what is not, such as the idea that "remaining in areas known to be used by Hamas" somehow makes somebody not a civilian noncombatant and their killing thus not meeting the aforementioned invented standard. nableezy - 21:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I may be wrong, but isn’t the first one part of the retracted Goldstein report, and most likely an error and not intentional? Kissufim was targeted as civilians, as far as I skimmed the article.
    Just to clarify my (admittedly confusing) sentence: killing a human shield may or may not be legal based on international law, but that isn’t the main question here, as someone voluntarily remaining a human shield is simply not „helpless“. FortunateSons (talk) 21:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s Goldstone and it isn’t retracted and it’s well established that took place. Unless you want to engage in outright denialism maybe actually look up what you’re talking about. Including the nonsense about human shields. But all in all, this is well WP:FORUM territory, and it be great if the personal opinions unmoored from sources stop being offered here. nableezy - 22:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, that was my native language slipping through, thanks for catching my unintentional translation.
    Regarding withdrawal, you are right too: it was partially recanted by the head of mission (per its wiki page). The taking place is true, but also of little relevance, as the primary question is intent; to quote the article: the investigations published by the Israeli military... indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying, which is in line with the argument I was making here.
    However, neither of those minor errors are in any way relevant to the question at hand, which is the interpretation and applicability of the main word in the title, which is definitely relevant here and therefore not WP:Forum. FortunateSons (talk) 23:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "The investigations published by the Israeli military... indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" - WP:MANDY
    - IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to clarify, Goldstone is the person who was the head of mission for the report, so that essay is not applicable here. Further sourcing FortunateSons (talk) 23:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    “ But does it explain the other theory about how all small Israeli incidents have been labeled as massacres, and how many Palestinian incidents, including this large one, have not been labeled a massacre? ” Do you mean on Wikipedia? On Wikipedia, article titles can be renamed from attack to massacre and vice versa (see Nir Yitzhak attack ). I assume Wiki editors are following the verbiage of sources in those articles for original naming/renaming based on WP:COMMONAME WP:SOURCESDIFFER. You would need to check the sources in those Wikipedia articles if there is a real discrepancy causing an inconsistency in naming standards.
    In terms of discrepancy in labeling by reliable sources for this article, some sources label the Al-rashid event as a massacre, some put it in scare quotes, other sources avoid using the word massacre (instead using, killings, attack, shooting, deaths), and some call it incident, disaster, or tragedy. Yes, FortuateSons got my point about “circumstances of atrocity or cruelty” in the US Webster’s primary definition which is based on “a number of” deaths rather than Cambridge’s “a lot”. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, that is a great assessment of the issue I had with some people above. I was mostly thought American English, so I (wrongly) assumed that the American definition was the one broadly used. FortunateSons (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment regarding the canvassing allegations:
  1. Almost all of the !votes occurred before the offending Twitter post.
  2. This is an ECP only discussion, so for the canvassing to be effective, somebody would've needed to make an account at least 30 days ago and then get up to 500 edits in anticipation of this RM. Believing that several ECP editors are doing that, with no evidence, assumes bad faith.
voorts (talk/contributions) 14:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. 23 of the votes were made after that Twitter post
  2. When a post has that broad of an impact (over half a million views), editors who are already ECP will be some of those who see it.
BilledMammal (talk) 14:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it really productive to try to conduct a hypothetical analysis of what proportion of the discussion to exclude based off of this theory? Their input has already been given, has been made in good faith, and I suspect the actual proportion of replies here that are the result of the twitter post are much smaller then you would think (if any were the result of that). Also, should seeing a Twitter post prohibit a user from participating in a discussion? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:CANVASS#Campaigning and WP:CANVASS#Votestacking. The issues with such a post, and editors coming from such a post, is it inappropraitely influences the result of the !vote in the same manner as intentional canvassing. Ideally, we would procedurally close this and hold a new RM once things have died down and editors aren't being drawn here by off-wiki activity. BilledMammal (talk) 14:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have made a series of completely unsupported assertions, and regardless canvassing, that is doing it, is prohibited, being canvassed is not. If you have evidence of any user canvassing or an editor proxying for a banned user you should report that to the normal places, but kindly stop disrupting this discussion with vague aspersions against editors without supporting evidence. nableezy - 14:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However, being canvassed is a reason for the closer to give less weight - or no weight - to their !votes. As for evidence, look at the contribution history of some of the editors; some have been inactive for years, others have never participated in an RM. BilledMammal (talk) 15:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is not true, and just saying so doesnt make it true. !votes are judged on their policy basis, not on some insinuation from an involved editor trying to discredit the overwhelming majority of votes that they are opposed to. Again, if you have evidence then raise it in the appropriate place, otherwise please stop disrupting this discussion that from all appearances is not going your preferred way. Theres a template at the top of this section already alerting both participants and a closer about the twitter thread. And youll note that it says However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others. You should do the same. nableezy - 15:11, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whose votes specifically? So far on my brief glance through contributions I only see one user who hasn't been active in over a year and I do not think not participating in a requested move in the past is really evidence of anything. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per the canvassing notice that you posted at the top of this discussion, the proper thing to do is tag individual accounts that you believe have been canvassed. It's not up to the closer to investigate every single !vote and it's not proper for a closer to discount an entire discussion because of vague allegations of canvassing. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to assume I'm one of the "editors" being discussed here as I haven't participated in many RMs in the part. Even so, it's unfair and elitist to assume editors that haven't contributed to these kinds of discussions before are automatically being canvassed. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no matter their previous experience on this website. HaapsaluYT (talk) 22:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i might be missing on something but what is the "offending Twitter post"? Abo Yemen✉ 15:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's linked at the top of discussion. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ah found it Abo Yemen✉ 15:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It also isnt even a canvassing post, its a post mocking Wikipedia's bias in language. It isnt a hey go vote to change this message. nableezy - 15:35, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes someone does need to take a leap of faith to say that the post was implying anything other that Wikipedia, for better or worse, oftentimes mirrors the language of what the largest western media outlets refer to events as. (a point that should probably be considered here!) LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A bias incidentally introduced by a non-EC user, which itself was a procedural lapse. That bias is now unfortunately being prolonged by this RM. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support the proposal here or Flour massacre - largely per Carwill, and per the fact that we use massacre in the title of a number of articles in which far fewer people were killed when those killed are Israelis and not Palestinians. There is a systemic bias in language Wikipedia uses in this conflict, Israelis are "murdered" or "massacred", but Palestinians are "killed" or "die in an incident". We have articles for most acts of violence against Israelis, but most acts of violence against Palestinians are treated as WP:NOTNEWS, routine and thus lacking importance to be covered. Here we have some eight times the number dead as Kissufim massacre or five times the dead as Psyduck music festival massacre or six times those killed in the Alumim massacre or five times those killed in the Netiv HaAsara massacre. But this is an "incident". NPOV doesnt mean that one set of lives are treated as less than another set of lives. nableezy - 14:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 voorts (talk/contributions) 15:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very important point. NPOV doesn't mean blindly repeating whatever US-based sources say. Outside of the US this is widely being referred to as a massacre: South Africa's Department of International Relations and Cooperation, The Herald (Zimbabwe's largest newspaper), Qatar's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, The Media Line, Pars Today, Daily Star, Havana Times.
The assumption that only sources like NYT, BBC, and Washington Post are reliable and neutral, especially in this conflict, is risible. They have been independently demonstrated to have a severe anti-Palestine bias in their reporting, as has been pointed out several times in this discussion. Dylanvt (talk) 17:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is another reason why i am supporting the move. Abo Yemen✉ 17:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right on. I don't object to the description of mass killings of Israeli civilians as "massacres-" it is what it is, but not calling blatant mass murders by the IDF by the names that accurately describe them is an incredible violation of NPOV. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 18:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is an extremely important point to make, as the phrasing of incident would definitely fall under WP:IMBALANCE and NPOV. Western media are the only ones using passive voice and calling it incidents, tragedies, etc. If we wouldn't use that phrasing for the brutality of the Re'im massacre and other smaller massacres even while we didn't know the details, why is this massacre any different? Jebiguess (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Supporters of the proposed title have not demonstrated that most English-language RS use the word "massacre" to refer to the article subject in their own voice rather than as a quote and instead have advanced arguments based on original research which should be discarded since they very much violate core content policies. Also whether or not the relevant RS are biased is not relevant. Per WP:NPOV, Wikipedia will include viewpoints proportionately to their prominence in RS, meaning the most prominent POV will be given the most weight. As other opposers have shown, most English-language RS do not refer to this as a massacre and so, Wikipedia will not use it as a title for this per WP:COMMONNAME. --StellarHalo (talk) 14:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sources exist that use the language, ergo it is not original research - that statement is what should be discarded. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Citing the shootings that happened in the event and then bringing up the dictionary definition of "massacre" as evidence a massacre actually took place are very much original research. Show that most English-language RS call it a massacre or we cannot use the proposed title. StellarHalo (talk) 07:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no single title or label which most English-language RS use. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 07:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NCENPOV states under point three that if there is no common name for the event and no generally accepted descriptive word, use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications. "Massacre" definitely carries POV implication since it is what one side of the conflict insists on labeling this event as. We have other descriptive names that could be used: "killings", "deaths", "tragedy", "stampede", and "crush". However, "massacre" is against the relevant policy guideline and so this specific RM should be closed for another one where other options could be considered and discussed. StellarHalo (talk) 08:24, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Almost all potential phrasings have POV implications. For example, seemingly "neutral" terms like 'incident' can be euphemistic and downplay the severity of the killings.
    I'm not sure it's true that 'massacre' "definitely carries POV implication", since a massacre did in fact occur, with soldiers firing on innocent people and killing many of them - which is the definition of a massacre. Wikipedia defines a massacre as "an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless. It is generally used to describe a targeted killing of civilians en masse by an armed group or person."
    It's not true that 'massacre' is only "what one side of the conflict insists on labeling this event", as neutral sources which are not a party to the conflict have also described the event as a massacre.
    - IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 08:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The word "massacre" definitely carries POV implication in this case because not only is this description specifically disputed by Israel, but what exactly occurred is still very much contested with Israel claiming that most of the deaths resulted from a stampede caused by mass panic after the shootings which the IDF said were a response to some of the crowd tried to approach them meaning the killings were, according to them, not targeted. Due to this along with the fact that the vast majority of the uses of "massacre" by English-language RS being quoting someone else while the word "incident" has been used to label this event in their own voice, using "massacre" as a title for this article is against the relevant aforementioned policies. StellarHalo (talk) 13:59, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If IDF gun fire caused a mass panic stampede those deaths are attributable to the IDF, also IDF is not a reliable source. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My response to those on your list: "killings" is the best of them by far, "deaths" and "tragedy" are an unwarranted passive voice, and "stampede" and "crush" are only appropriate if combined with "shootings" (with "shootings" being the first, as in "shootings and stampede") since evidence clearly indicates that there were far more casualties from bullets than a stampede/crush --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 09:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also second the "shootings and stampede" as a title at least for the time being while English-language RS hopefully eventually sort out what label to refer to the article subject. StellarHalo (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Massacre" is not some English-exclusive word; uses of the term in non-English RS are just as valid. Carwil (talk) 19:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Unlike WP:N, which allows notability to be established by non-English language sources, WP:COMMONNAME requires that the common name be determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: While I support the move, it is quite unfortunate that the majority of anglophone news outlets would never address this incident a "massacre". When the Bucha massacre article was created on 3rd April 2022, its title has already employed "massacre", despite many anglophone media outlets didn't really call it a massacre except for quoting Ukrainian officials in their reports by that point. I do want non-anglophone western editors to help provide examples of how reliable non-anglophone western media outlets label this incident. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 14:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Per the article title policy, we go by what English sources call an event under WP:COMMONNAME. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Google News: "Gaza Rashid incident" at 505 / "Gaza Rashid massacre" 619. Carwil (talk) 19:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Carwil. Davest3r08 >:) (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Additionally, Dylanvt has given several sources that use the word "massacre" to describe the event. I forgot to mention that. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm open to learning from my mistakes. — Davest3r08 >:) (talk) 16:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Per User:BilledMammal, about half of the sources cited by Dylanvt do not actually themselves describe the events as a massacre, but rather quote others who do. Whether that is sufficient to justify a move is unclear to me. BilledMammal has also gone through reliable sources that overwhelmingly do not use the term "massacre" themselves, although again, quoting others could be sufficient to enable the move. (FWIW, as stated above, I do personally believe that the IDF's conduct merits this terminology, but that is not for us to decide based on what feels right—Wikipedia has guidelines on contentious labels and terminology for exactly this reason.) --23:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC) Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 23:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      BilledMammal was just flat out wrong about that though. Most of the sources that they claimed don't refer to it as a massacre – but rather quote others who do – in fact do refer to the event as a massacre. I have no clue how BilledMammal came to the conclusion that those sources don't refer to it as a massacre themselves, when one can click on the links and clearly see that they do. I'm hoping it's not intentional dishonesty, but I genuinely can't understand how else that would happen. See my response to them above where I demonstrate that they're wrong. Dylanvt (talk) 00:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I've clicked through the links—some of them do, in fact, just quote others rather than directly labeling the event themselves. That said, you're correct that he did misidentify some of those sources in terms of how they refer to the event. What's more, even if reliable sources only state that large numbers of people refer to the event as a massacre, that could be sufficient to establish the terminology under WP:COMMONNAME, so the distinction may be moot.--Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 04:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Per above. Physicians, as well as UN observers and independent aid groups, have determined the vast majority of the victims, including both the dead as well as the injured, had gunshot wounds. Ijon Tichy (talk) 18:24, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - if this is not a mascare, what's a massacre in your opinion? Mervat (talk) 18:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Dylanvt, with particular note of "Flour massacre" as an alternative. Al-Rashid is the street where this took place as I understand it but I'm seeing it referred to in most sources as "in Gaza" which is too vague for our purposes or "flour massacre." I'm only really seeing "Al-Rashid massacre" in MENA sources and seeing "flour massacre" more often in American/European sources. U-dble (talk) 19:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, of course. That, or Flour massacre. As for many Western Media not calling it a "massacre", that is sadly in line with how they have been reporting these last 4 months: 1200+ Israelis were "massacred" (300-400 of them acting military), while 10000+ Palestinian children "have died" (no indication of anyone killing them!) We don't need this double standard. Huldra (talk) 22:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'd ask the people who Oppose this to consider what their stance would be had this article been named a "massacre" when it was first created (say, by the first user who moved it to that title, User:MainlyTwelve, who is Extended Confirmed), and this was now a RM to move it to "incident". For me personally, who Supported the move above, I would Strongly Oppose moving it to "incident" due to WP:EUPHEMISM but might be persuaded to move it to something other than "massacre" if the proposed title at least acknowledged that many people were killed, like "mass shooting" or "mass shooting and stampede" --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 00:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, there seems to be consensus (including the opposes, many of them suggesting an alternative name) in opposition of using "incident" as the name, so I highly doubt a move request to include "incident" in the title would have been started in the first place. The opposing votes are mostly basing their argument off of stating that there has been insufficient RS's labeling this as a massacre to establish a WP:COMMONNAME, and that argument would surely have been brought up if the article originally included "massacre". Gödel2200 (talk) 01:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support • Some editors keep pointing out that many reliable sources do not call the event a massacre, but neither do most reliable sources call it an incident. It seems that many (most?) sources avoid labelling the event, but we unfortunately don't have that option and must make a choice for the article's title.
Labelling the event as a massacre or as an unspecified "incident", are neither ideal. Personally I don't think the euphemism concerns of using 'incident' should be underestimated, and the only significant issue with using 'massacre' is that many RSs don't use that word. I don't think there should be much concern about the potentially contentious nature of the label 'massacre', since a massacre did occur and was the core event of this "incident". Though not causing all of the deaths, soldiers fired on a crowd of civilians, causing many of the deaths and causing the ensuing chaos/panic which resulted in additional deaths.
Also, it is likely that as time passes more and more reliable sources will refer to this event as a massacre, as many of the English language sources which avoid calling this a massacre today are either politically biased or self-censoring due to political considerations. (See Media coverage of the Arab–Israeli conflict)
-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an aside - See also: February 28 incident, an article with a similar problem of whether or not it should be called an incident or a massacre. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, so I did already vote, I had completely forgotten that. My apologies and I have struck my first vote. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

[edit]

This discussion of an article page move can easily be contested. Discussions typically last a week and this one didn't even last 2 hours! And the nominator closed the discussion with their preferred article title which is a clear conflict of interest, that act should have been left to an uninvolved editor or admin. I don't think this discussion and closure can be argued to be authoritative and will likely be challenged. Please do things properly in the future, Lukt64, and don't try to rush these processes. Liz Read! Talk! 02:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Obvious misapplication of WP:SNOW, here. Tdmurlock (talk) 03:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Also, would like clarification on WP:SNOW for the future. From my understanding, it's to prevent starting discussions or processes that wouldn't have worked anyways, not to quickly force through process, like it did just now, right? User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
information Note: I have reverted Lukt64's early closure which is made improperly as the nominator. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 04:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Fails even the first snowball test. Someone opposed, that's the opposite of unanimous. And WP:SNOW also warns of early pile-ons. Yet the nominator himself closed it less than 2 hours after he opened it. Good revert. JM (talk) 06:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Discussions typically last a week" shouldn't be a hard rule, especially when most people agree the original title is woefully inadequate. While the close was obviously incorrect, I don't think we need to artificially uphold bureaucratic procedures to change the title, and a consensus emerging after one or two days could be good if it is clear enough. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Chaotic Enby, that's why I said "typically", not "always" or "must". But I've seen discussions like this last weeks sometimes. RM discussions are closed whenever an uninvolved closer sees a consensus but it clearly needs to last at least a few days, not less than two hours. The temperature is high right now and that is not an atmostphere when policy-guided decisions are made. A bad, early closure without sufficient discussion will just lead to a move war, I predict. Liz Read! Talk! 04:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I fully agree with you on this. In any case, it shouldn't have been closed after a few hours (especially by someone that involved), I'd say it's best to wait if a (very) strong consensus emerges after a few days and otherwise let the discussion run its time. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 13:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For every day this RM is not closed, people's bias towards wikipedia increases Abo Yemen✉ 12:12, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mean "peoples perceptions of Wikipedia's bias increases." LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably, I ain't no native speaker of this language Abo Yemen✉ 14:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative titles

[edit]

We would not reach any consensus regarding any title containing 'massacre' as quickly as many of us would like. However, I believe even some of the opponents of this RM would agree that 'incident' seriously dilutes the magnitude of this tragedy and should not persist. As a temporary solution and a compromise, I suggest moving to a different title that contains neither 'massacre' nor 'incident'. Here are my suggestions:

The use of "disaster" is supported by Al Jazeera which quotes an unnamed UN official, as well as Reuters. Thought? -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 11:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC) 12:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Disaster" to me implies a lack of agency, or a much larger scope. Disasters are events that just happen, either without human involvement, or by accident (like the Port Chicago disaster). Or, they are much more massive in scale, like destruction of dams as a weapon of war. Also, the use of "disaster" in the Al Jazeera source you linked is in reference to the looming man-made famine, not this.
The only non-"massacre" titles that I think would be acceptable (unless a WP:COMMONNAME emerges) would be "killings" or "(mass) shooting", possibly with the addition of "and stampede" --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 12:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I don't see how 'disaster' is better than 'incident'. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 12:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely a lot better than massacre, potentially better than incident, even if less supported by RS. The reference to disaster at AJ is not quite accurate, but I would consider disaster to be an adequate common name based on the Reuters use.
Therefore, support (secondary to my opposition to „massacre“. FortunateSons (talk) 12:32, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sameboat: I think it was soon to offer such suggestions. It looks even weird to me during an ongoing move discussion to open a new move section as you did. --Mhhossein talk 20:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose "disaster" - I think it is even worse than incident as it removes agency even more so than incident. However, I weakly support "killings" as an alternative title in the event that some how, some way, the closer finds that massacre does not have enough support for consensus, which I suspect it does at this point. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 22:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AJ has plumped for "Flour massacre" "It has been five days since the Israeli army fired into a crowd of the hungry and the starving at al-Rashid Street in Gaza City, an incident that has been dubbed the Flour Massacre." Selfstudier (talk) 13:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DISASTER specifically cautions against the use of the word "disaster" in titles: "Try to avoid the words disaster, tragedy and crisis because this characterization is too subjective. It is preferable to use specific event names, such as collision, collapse, explosion, outbreak, pandemic, sinking, oil spill, and the like." Other editors have suggested "shootings," "killings," or "shooting and stampede" as a descriptor of the events themselves. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 15:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
we gotta apply this on other articles about the "disasters" committed by hamas too Abo Yemen✉ 15:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unsure of what you mean, or how this connects to the current discussion—are there any such articles with "disaster" in the title? --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 15:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
there are articles about hamas attacks that have the word "Massacre" in their names. What i am saying is that if we're applying this policy here then we should apply it in the other articles too Abo Yemen✉ 16:24, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, deaths is optimal, but I don’t think anyone likes that one. Killings and shootings are both not yet proven to be the primary cause, so… FortunateSons (talk) 15:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter if it is the primary cause if gunfire caused the mass panic those deaths are attributable to the IDF. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Only if the gun fire is the primary or exclusive cause of the stampede, which we don’t know yet, as there is no complete investigation FortunateSons (talk) 22:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, there is generally a difference between an attributable death and a killing, which is a second hurdle here. FortunateSons (talk) 22:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Think there is a pretty obvious consensus to move above anyway, so this is both premature and unnecessary imo. nableezy - 15:54, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, firm consensus above about "massacre". — Mainly 16:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, consensus for massacre has largely been reached. Jebiguess (talk) 17:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Until the above discussion is closed, I don't see the harm in entertaining a discussion on other titles, especially since a sizable proportion of Oppose respondents still believe that the current title is not the best reflection of the events as they occurred. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 22:50, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AP mentions that the gaza health ministry calls it a massacre, but opts to refer to the incident as a stampede. Le monde refers to the incident as a "hunger riot". Tdmurlock (talk) 08:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the AP attributes stampede as the description of the Israeli military. nableezy - 08:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to strike or otherwise retract your comment about the AP article as it's a gross misrepresentation of that source. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 12:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is that a gross misrepresentation of that source? It literally says, Israel said many of the dead were trampled in a chaotic stampede for the food aid and that its troops only fired when they felt endangered by the crowd. User3749 (talk) 16:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The difference between saying "AP opts to refer to the incident as a stampede" and "AP reports that Israel calls the events a stampede" is what makes it a gross misrepresentation. The AP attributes that language to Israel, it does not itself use that language without attribution to describe the event. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 16:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, it looks like I've misinterpreted the comment as saying "attribution of stampede as description of IDF" as a misrepresentation of the source. Saying that AP refers this as a stampede is indeed a gross misrepresentation of the source. User3749 (talk) 06:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel also says in the AP article that their troops fired on the crowd so I would strike your comment. The AP article attributes the stampede claim to the IDF, so please strike that part of your comment. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alternative title in the lead first sentence

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Opposition to Citing Al Jazeera, which is state-owned by Qatar, in the lead

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Al Jazeera is not a reliable, independent source on this topic--it is state-owned by the government of Qatar, which has a conflict of interest in the conflict; Qatar is helping arbitrate diplomatic negotiations and is the current residence of the top leadership of Hamas.

"The attack was portrayed by Al-Jazeera as part of a broader pattern of Israeli attacks on people seeking humanitarian aid."

The same would apply to citing Voice of America, as the United States is also helping arbitrate diplomatic negotiations and provides military aid to Israel. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:28, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Al Jazeera is considered generally reliable despite being state-owned. Salmoonlight (talk) 00:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Salmoonlight. WP:RSPSOURCES has them as a generally reliable source. Their coverage of the conflict seems professional and accurate so far. Occasionally their bias slips through, for example in live news reports they always refer to the "occupied" West Bank. But overall I am very impressed with their professionalism. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, referring to the West Bank as occupied isn't "letting bias slip through" given that it objectively is being occupied by israel, and is recognized as such by the entire international community. Dylanvt (talk) 20:34, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That page says “Some editors say that Al Jazeera, particularly its Arabic-language media, is a partisan source with respect to the Arab–Israeli conflict.” Blaylockjam10 (talk) 07:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Partisan doesn't mean unreliable. A partisan source may pick and choose what they cover and use charged language, but they can still be reliable in that what facts they do publish are real --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 08:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC is also state-owned media, which also has a conflict of interest in the conflict, both due to the UK being in a military alliance with the US, and due to its historical involvement in Palestine. Despite this, it is used as a source in the article and generally considered RS. KetchupSalt (talk) 10:36, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should be acknowledged that the UK and US are democracies with a large measure of freedom of speech whereas Qatar is a monarchy with far less freedom of speech. Regardless, as Al-Jazeera is currently listed as generally reliable, there's nothing to be done here. JM (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
US and UK media have a far more shameful record of cheerleading wars built on falsehoods against the Middle East. That holding an election every few years means obe's foreign policy is moral and media is fair is a laughable article of Israeli propaganda, and one very easily refutable. Also, the NY Times, the BBC, and CNN have lately been dealing with a number of staffer revolts based on the perception, held by their own reporters, that they're biased for Israel. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 04:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Al Jazeera has actually been a far more serious source for the entire duration of this conflict than almost the entire coterie of war propaganda-pushing Western media outlets combined. Alongside the death of the illusion of international law, we have also seen the death of the illusion of Western editorial standards on impartiality. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:56, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, and it reflects a structural issue that is not resolvable here. Coretheapple (talk) 19:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Al Jazeera has bias but they’re reliable and they’re the only news source that actually reports from within Gaza itself, so in many cases Al Jazeera is the only source to verify such stories The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:05, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the more accurate description is that Al Jazeera is reporting without the "supervision" by the IDF. That being said I don't question another state-owned media, ie BBC's neutrality, but the materials they are allowed to carried away from Gaza are seriously censored by the IDF, unlike Al Jazeera. And I don't think any experienced Wikipedia editors here should ever treat IDF and the Israeli government as reliable sources, anything related to Palestine. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 05:45, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although the BBC has in fact been criticised for its partiality. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from the outlet's GREL status at RSP and the fact that we expect media outlets to be bias, and that this just means we have a rounded balance of sources, even the indirect aspersion here is spurious – the fact that Qatar is handling negotiations is actually a testament to it being seen as a workably neutral party by both sides. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:05, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure about Qatar’s neutrality because according to this Wikipedia page, Qatar does not formally recognize Israel International recognition of Israel#UN member states Wafflefrites (talk) 18:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't really matter. AJ is GREL - that's all that really matters. These discussions about bias are a red herring: all sources have bias, not least with respect to this conflict. We build pages by combining partial sources to produce an end result that approximates NPOV. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree that editors follow Wikipedia’s reliable sources list. I was responding to the last part of your sentence at 06:05, 10 March 2024 regarding Qatar’s neutrality “the fact that Qatar is handling negotiations is actually a testament to it being seen as a workably neutral party by both sides.” Wafflefrites (talk) 19:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization

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In the very first sentence, is the capitalization correct? It's called "flour massacre" (all lowercase) but that somehow seems weird. Maybe "Flour massacre" or "Flour Massacre" instead? JDiala (talk) 22:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be capitalized per CNN: More than 100 people were killed in the incident in northern Gaza, which has become known as the “Flour Massacre,” as Israeli troops opened fire near civilians gathering around food aid trucks, triggering panic. nableezy - 22:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever we decide in this section, let's first change the article title to match our new consensus, and then change all the article prose. The article title should be the source of truth for the prose, in my opinion. Keeping in mind one quirk: the software forces the first letter to be capitalized in titles.
Checking {{Massacres against Palestinians}}, looks like every single massacre has a lowercase "m". They also happen to have uppercase first words, but that's because most of them are proper nouns. This article is a bit odd because the first word ("flour") is not a place like in the other massacres.
Anyway, with that in mind, I think the status quo of all lowercase ("flour massacre") makes sense. My second choice would be "Flour massacre". I don't think "Flour Massacre" makes sense because there's over a dozen other Palestinian massacre articles that do not capitalize the "m", hinting that there's a WP:AT/WP:MOS policy somewhere or a WP:SILENT consensus somewhere that massacre should not be capitalized in article titles. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It really depends on what the discourse surrounding it labels it as. "Flour Massacre" could be a full, proper name for the event, much like Boston Massacre and I assume others, if that's how reliable sources refer to it. --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 12:22, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Gimmethegepgun here in that usage is the primary indicator of what it'll be referred to, but when usage is unclear or yet to be made clear, I feel like we can still make a clear judgment based on what each of the three capitalization styles means. There seem to me to be two different questions to ask here; first, whether or not to capitalize massacre and second, whether or not to capitalize flour. On the first, we should capitalize both words if the event has commonly been referred to by the name of "flour massacre," which would indicate that it's becoming a proper noun and thus deserves capitalization. (Here, the use of "the" vs. "a" is important, but primarily that the use of "a" would indicate no capitalization, not that the use of "the" is indicative of any single usage, as I could forsee it being used in both cases.) If, on the other hand, this is an event involving flour or Flour (which I will get to later) that we know to be a massacre, then a lowercase massacre would be the better choice.
If we were to decide that a lowercase massacre would be the appropriate choice, then the follow-up question would be whether or not to capitalize flour. Seeing as this is referring to the object and food stuff of flour and not a proper noun of Flour, I see no reason to capitalize flour and not massacre (other than in the title or at the start of sentences).
In my opinion between "flour massacre" and "Flour Massacre", I think both have drawbacks, with "flour massacre" being indicative more of a type of event than an individual event, but "Flour Massacre" is slightly hasty at this point and we don't know how this event will come to be discussed down the line. AnOpenBook (talk) 03:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But we have a source specifically saying it is known as capital f Flour capital m Massacre. nableezy - 04:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move review for recent page name move

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Please see Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 March#Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incident. In case you have not seen the notice near the top of the page. starship.paint (RUN) 03:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UN reference and quote is not ideal. Should be replaced with secondary reference (if exists) and summary of quote.

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@Edenaviv5. Re [18]. I disagree. If it is not mentioned in secondary sources such as newspapers, then it is WP:UNDUE and should be removed. If it is mentioned in secondary sources, then it is WP:DUE and we should reference the secondary source instead. Direct quotations instead of summarizing is also not great. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with Novem Linguae. starship.paint (RUN) 09:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Novem Linguae
If the issue is whether the UN should be quoted in regard to this international concern, then that's different from what I was addressing. Take out the quote if you want to, or mark the need for summary.
I am specifically concerned with the citation for the quote. I am operating from the place where the quote exists in the article and that, "To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted." (From WP:RS/QUOTE) -- In this case, the quotation is first published in a press release from the UN, and thus that press release is its most reliable source. Edenaviv5 (talk) 22:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The secondary source needed tag that I added and that was reverted was my polite way of saying that this needs a better, secondary source, otherwise it is WP:UNDUE. The other option was to delete the sentence entirely. The ideal fix here is to find a secondary source (newspaper article) that says approximately the same thing, and summarize it without a quote, and cite it. Lots of people say lots of things about this incident. We use secondary sources to filter that and figure out what's actually important. If we use primary sources without filtering them through secondary sources, then everything that anybody says on Twitter is suddenly okay to include in the article. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The primary may be OK not really fond of press releases tho, the specific quote definitely wouldn't be, unless supported by secondary.
Here are secondaries I found on a quick look, for what Paula Gaviria said, Israel’s ‘wholesale disregard’ for Gazans’ rights is on level unseen in recent history, says UN expert (the quote is in this one) and
UN expert condemns Israel’s dehumanisation of displaced Palestinians Selfstudier (talk) 11:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CNN Investigation

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CNN published a new article earlier today that I do not yet see cited here. They conclude:

"CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos from the night and testimonies from eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on Israel’s version of events. The evidence, reviewed by forensic and ballistic experts, indicated that automatic gunfire began before the IDF said the convoy had started crossing through the checkpoint and that shots were fired within close range of crowds that had gathered for food."

Snuish (talk) 16:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll incorporate this into the article. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"IDF"

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the term "IDF" is used several times in the article, without clarifying what it stands for. please edit replace the first instance of "IDF" with "Israeli Defense Forces (IDF)". Daddyelectrolux (talk) 15:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 16:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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