Talk:Guthrie's Memorial, Isle of Man

Discussion in 2008

Guthrie's Memorial/TT Course Template Box.

This point on the Snaefell mountain course or Mountain Course is preceed by the 26th Milestone and the next following point on the course is Guthrie's Bridge or the 27th Milestone as the Mountain Course runs clockwise. The title of the course is Snaefell Mountain Course or Mountain Course rather than Isle of Man TT Course as there has been more than one TT 'course' and also the Tourist Trophy racing on the Isle of Man for cars predates the races for motor-cycles.

Also the position on the map is also inaccurate and with Guthrie's Memorial the point is actually several miles from its actual position. Perhaps you would like to correct this as with other points on the Snaefell mountain course. Would someone alter the title of the Template Box as I have been unable to do so.

(11thmilestone (talk) 12:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC))[reply]

If there are particular facts that you feel are inaccurate, then you should correct them. However, large-scale reversion of unrelated changes is vandalism, and you should desist from such actions.

Wikipedia's Manual of Style says that the most common name should be used to refer to things: the TT Course is vastly, vastly more regularly referred to as the 'TT Course' - it's the current one, even though there were obviously other incarnations at earlier times. 'Snaefell Mountain Course' is a much more niche term. Mauls (talk) 21:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Isle of Man Centenary TT - ACU/MMCC Official Race Guide on page 67 refers to a map of the circuit and it decribed as the "Mountain Course" and the same publication refers to practice on the "Mountain Course." Also, the Race Guide for the 1972 Isle of Man TT Races descibes the results for the Isle of Man TT Races 1907-1910 as the "Short Course" and the TT races 1911 ownwards as the "Mountain Course." The current term is "Mountain Course" and refers to the Isle of Man TT Races and also the Manx Grand Prix which shares the same circuit. To describe the term "Snaefell Mountain Course" or "Mountain Course" as an obsolete term or 'niche term' would be incorrect and perhaps you should provided documentary evidence to your assertions inline with Wikiedia policy and aslo be careful of incorrect descriptions about the Isle of Man TT Races in either media, maps or other doucmentary evidence.

It is perhaps helpful for the reader of the article(s) to understand the difference between the Isle of Man TT Races as an event and also the "TT Course," as you refer to it, as a race circuit which is also used by the Manx Grand Prix as a seperate event. As the Wikipedia article Snaefell Mountain Course is a technical description of the course and the other documented course names such as Guthrie's Memorial, 11th Milestone and Handley's Corner etc, can be seen to be aslo technical description in accordance with Wikipedia policy WP:TITLE, the most common name used be used for the actual title of the article, with more technically exact names used at the start. In this case then the article Snaefell Mountain Course the intial description should be "Snaefell Mountain Course" instead of "(Snaefell) Mountain Course."

With the TT Course info box now found with TT course names such as Guthrie's Memorial the title should also be "Mountain Course." The enclosed map show some but not all of the Isle of Man Parish boundries and Guthries's memorial is in the parish of Lezayre and the maps shows it in the parish of Maughold. Also, the map shows the position of Guthrie's Memorial several miles from its actual position and the following and preceeding course positions are still incorrect.

Despite the assertion, "the most common name for the course, by a long margin, is 'TT Course'...." it now appears that there is a policy to change all references to "Mountain Course" to "Snaefell Mountain Course" a term previously described as incorrect or a little used 'niche term.' Large-scale reversion of unrelated changes is vandalism, and you should desist from such actions. It is also unhelpful to make changes of this type as it is makes it difficult to edit articles about the Isle of Man TT Races or start new articles about the ".... other incarnations at earlier times..." If there is a random policy to change description to "Snaefell Mountain Course," again, perhaps you should provided documentary evidence to your assertions inline with Wikiedia policy and aslo be careful of incorrect descriptions of the the Isle of Man TT Races or Manx Grand Prix in either media, maps or other doucmentary evidence. (Agljones (talk) 13:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Missplaced references removed from article

I removed two references from the article which had been placed after the first two words in the article ( "Guthrie's Memorial" ). The references may well have good information, but references are to be used to support statements. If they aren't used to support any statements in the article, yet one wishes to recommend them to readers or future editors, then a different way to include them is by including them a "Further reading" section. Or they can just be noted on the Talk page, as being available for future editors to use, perhaps. The references removed are this^[1] and this.^[2]

References

^ Isle of Man Green Final page 3 29th April 1939 "Jim Guthrie Memorial"
^ TT 100 The Official Authorised History of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Racing page 25 by Mick Duckworth (2007) Lily Publications Ltd ISBN 1 899602 67 4 – "....The entry to Guthrie's is three kinks taken as one - and fast. It took me years get them right, so you have a good squirt at the right hander....It has a bump in the middle and you avoid running wide coming out where the camber will hide-side you.... The Mountain Course. A lap of the legendary circuit accompanied by the record holder John McGuinness.

Misplacement of references as was done here appears in many Isle of Man articles. --do ncr am 04:39, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of text suggesting significant differences between SMC and other IoM race courses

I have just removed text suggesting significant differences between the Snaefell Mountain Course (SMC) and other Isle of Man courses, because that implication is apparently incorrect.

Explanation: In the lede of this article and 30-50 other articles on "named corners", there have been statements suggesting the Snaefell Mountain Course is one of several racing courses on the IoM, including the Highland Course and the Four Inch Course (FIC), which presumably are or were different courses. Based on their repetition and assuming good faith, I believed the implication of all these statements, although I did not myself understand exactly how the courses are different. AFAIK there is no map at any IoM article showing any two or more of the courses to compare them. It has seemed to me that the reader was perhaps supposed to read all 30-50 named corners articles and figure out, from whether each one is stated to be on some/all of the courses or not, where the differences are. Towards helping readers, at List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course I began to make an effort to clarify which corners of the SMC corners were/are included in the other courses, all in one place. However, I've recently been informed by an editor in this diff with edit summary "Removing confused non-relevant section. removing poor written English (Four-Inch Course and Snaefell Mountain Course are the same course" that at least the FIC is the SAME as the SMC.

That is essentially the case, I understand now. Per the Four Inch Course article (permalink to latest version, the FIC is virtually the same as SMC. This is despite the implications of the named corner articles and the fact that the FIC and SMC have different articles. The FIC article's first four sentences seem to imply that the FIC is a different topic than the SMC, then the 5th sentence says it is the same, and later in the article it is clarified that the current SMC course is slightly different than the original FIC due to a small change of route of the SMC in 1920 that added .25 miles additional distance. The change involved turning differently at Cronk-ny-Mona and must have dropped one or more corners and added one or more others, but is nonetheless minor.

Also, I basically understand that any "other" race courses are not very different. (Sure, apparently very early on the motor-cycles could not climb hills that autos could, so motor-cycles went a different way on part of the course, for a few years, still not a major difference.) SO...I have now removed the following text passage from this article:

The Cutting S-bend corner was part of the Highland Course and Four Inch Course used for the Gordon Bennett Trial and Tourist Trophy automobile car races held in the Isle of Man between 1904 and 1922. Also, Guthrie's Memorial is part of the Snaefell Mountain Course used since 1911 for the Isle of Man TT and 1923 for the Manx Grand Prix Races.

Its placement in the lede of the article, especially, suggested it was important to make the distinction between the Highland, FIC, and SMC courses. It is better to state simply that this corner is part of the SMC, and allow the reader to learn at the SMC article about early history of its use, and about any small differences amongst early versions of the SMC. --do ncr am 14:47, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a ridiculous and facetious assertion. The auto racing course and racing was a very large part of the development of the TT Races. Removing the paragraph removes the link to the auto races and also the TT Races which the reader has to go to the third section to find the information. Use common sense that the article has to provide the same information for a reader looking at just only one article and not necessarily wanting to look at all the articles to find the information or having to look at article history or talkpages. It is a case of providing constancy and addressing problems of article notability. The auto racing Highlands course was a substantially different course. The motorcyles transferred to two different courses before technical developments allowed them to the same course used by the autos. The auto Four-Inch course led to the development of the Snaefell Course.11thmilestone 11thmilestone (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

Present title

I am not convinced this article should be titled as Guthrie's Memorial instead of what I would expect - Guthrie Memorial

The familiar, informal contraction would be Guthrie's, as Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man could be referred to as Kate's, Sarah's Cottage, Isle of Man could be referred to as Sarah's, and Governor's Bridge, Isle of Man could be referred to as Governor's.

Renaming of article(s)

This article was renamed in April 2015 (diff) from Guthrie's Memorial to Guthrie's Memorial, Isle of Man.

There is no other article named as "Guthrie's Memorial". Wikipedia Manual of style advises using WP:COMMONNAME (where there is no need for disambiguation). It's not common usage to include ", Isle of Man" on the back of Guthrie's Memorial. This appears to me as an attempt to rename articles - with no Talk page discussion - as a way of using Wikipedia to promote the Isle of Man name without justification.

I will now start to collate other articles that did not need renaming for disambiguation purposes, starting with:

Kate's Cottage renamed as Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man in March 2015 (diff) (no other article named as "Kate's Cottage" on Wikipedia)
Creg-ny-Baa renamed as Creg-ny-Baa, Isle of Man in March 2015 (diff) (no other article named as "Creg-ny-Baa" on Wikipedia)
--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 02:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Isle of Man Green Final page 3 29th April 1939 "Jim Guthrie Memorial"

[2] TT 100 The Official Authorised History of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Racing page 25 by Mick Duckworth (2007) Lily Publications Ltd ISBN 1 899602 67 4 – "....The entry to Guthrie's is three kinks taken as one - and fast. It took me years get them right, so you have a good squirt at the right hander....It has a bump in the middle and you avoid running wide coming out where the camber will hide-side you.... The Mountain Course. A lap of the legendary circuit accompanied by the record holder John McGuinness.

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