Talk:HMS Surprise (1796)

(First comments)

HMS Surprise (1794) page reads "She was sold out of the Service in 1802."

However, in 1814 Francis Scott Key was held captive aboard the HMS Surprise during the British bombardment of Fort McHenry in Baltimore, when he was inspired to write "The Star-Spangled Banner".

Wikipedia references subsequent vessels named "HMS Surprise", but the next one was reportedly launched in 1856.

So, which HMS Surprise was at the 1814 bombardment? I assume it must be the original vessel launched in 1794, which means it couldn't have been sold out of military service in 1802.

I have not been able to find anything definitive about this.

Mark Rizo 06:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

That would be HMS Surprise (1812) - a 38-gun frigate. I have no information on her besides her year of launch, number of guns, and that she was hulked in 1822. Martocticvs 17:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If she's Surprise (1812), she was launched around 1812. And she was a 38-gun Leda-class frigate like Shannon or Trincomalee.72.224.230.110 (talk) 15:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, if you look up HMS Surprise, you will see that over the centuries at least 13 Royal Navy vessels have born the name HMS Surprise. HMS Surprise (1796), the former Unite was one; HMS Surprise (1812), was another, completely different vessel. The Royal Navy frequently reused names, though it generally, unlike the French Navy, avoided giving the same name to two vessels operating at the same time.Acad Ronin (talk) 16:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I also note that the calculation for English BM is wrong - (129-3/5*31.667)*31.667*31.667/2/94 comes to 587 tuns. The 350 tons may be an actual hold space, a measure in a different, non-applicable system - or an incorrect figure carried from a different ship (Even the smaller Seaford class Rose, which the modern 'replica' is based on, was a 449 BM tunnage ship)2A00:23C7:9385:AD00:6905:B4D2:547:CB29 (talk) 11:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Fixed per Winfield (2008).Acad Ronin (talk) 16:06, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Clarify number of guns

"...converted by the British into a 28-gun sixth-rate, carrying 24 32-pound carronades on her main deck, eight more of the same on her quarter deck and forecastle, as well as 4 six-pound long guns as chasers...."

Not sure if this is a mistake or a convention of classifying ships. If it's correct that a ship carrying (24 + 8) 32-pounders and 4 6-p[ounders would be classed as a 28 gun ship, then a note clarifying this might help? Tt 225 19:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

She may have been officially rated as a 28, but in practise carried more guns - it was not unheard of or even that uncommon. Officially Victory is a 100 gun ship, but she currently carries (as she did at Trafalgar) 104 guns (carronades do not count in the rating of ships either, except where it is the primary armament). It may be a slight quirk of the system that the 24 carronades on her main deck are counted, but the 8 on the quarter deck are not. Martocticvs 21:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, I suspected I was missing something! Tt 225

It was not until February 1817, when a comprehensive re-casting of the whole rating system took effect, that carronades on the quarter deck and forecastle were counted in a vessel's gun-rating. Until that date, they were on counted if they REPLACED long guns in those position.

The Surprise launched in 1812 was a Leda Class frigate, built at Milford Dockyard. This Surprise was ordered on 10 April 1809, laid down in January 1810, launched 25 July 1812, and then sailed round to Plymouth, where she was completed between 9 August and 1 December, and commissioned there in September 1812 under the command of Capt. Sir Thomas John Cochrane, under whom she sailed for the West Indies on 19 December. From June 1814 she was under the command of Capt. George Knight, under whom she took part in the September 1814 bombardment of Fort McHenry, until she paid off into Ordinary (i.e. reserve) at Plymouth in August/September 1815. She was fitted as a convict ship at Plymouth in May/June 1822, and sailed to Cork, where she remained until being sold to break up in October 1837. I have re-written the article on this 1812 Surprise accordingly This class each carried 28 x 18pdrs on the UD, 8 x 9pdrs (and 6 x 32pdr carronades) on the quarter deck, and 2 x 9pdrs (and 2 more 32pdr carronades) on the forecastle. Therefore these frigates were each rated at 38 guns until February 1817, when they were re-rated at 46 nguns.

Incidentally, the earlier Surprise covered by this article should undoubtedly be listed as HMS Surprise (1796), as she was L'Unite up until that date. If we start listing prizes under their original date of launch rather than the date they were commissioned into the British Navy, we shall end up with real confusion. I have changed the date in the 'head' article for "HMS Surprise", but would be grateful if someone could re-title this article to re-establish the link. Rif Winfield 10:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the name of this article is not consistent with the method for naming articles about captured ships. It should either be French ship L'Unité (1794) or HMS Surprise (1796) - and as the article is named HMS Surprise at the moment, it should become the latter - either way, the current title is incorrect. Martocticvs 15:11, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Good! Ideally, we should be having two separate articles, one under each of these heading - accessed through 'French corvettes' and 'sail frigates of the RN' respectively. So can you change the date of this article to 1796, please, Martocticvs? Rif Winfield 16:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

According to this, the ship in British service was given a main battery of 8 pdrs. However, I had always thought that 8 pdrs. were used solely by continental navies, as the British used 9 pdrs. Was this a mistake?Keegsshipguy 02:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC) The French 8Livre and English 9lb are nearly identical in diameter and shot, it wouldn't matter in any case as the plan to arm with 9lb guns 4lb guns and 12lb carronades was altered before she was commissioned and she was instead fitted with 32lb carronades in her main battery and 18lb carronades on her castles. (With a pair of 4lb chase guns to conform to a requirement to have at least a pair of guns).2A00:23C7:9385:AD00:6905:B4D2:547:CB29 (talk) 11:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

HMS Unite

The Unite in service in 1805 was, according to Robert Gardiner's Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars, was a different ship; a 38-gun frigate that was originally HMS Imperieuse (1793). I'll be removing the incorrect information.Keegsshipguy (talk) 02:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Split?

The HMS Surprise in the Patrick O'Brian novels redirects to the "Surprise in fiction" section here: As it isn't, in fact, the same ship (different rating, different history) is it worth splitting out the content and moving it to HMS Surprise (O'Brian novels)? I've taken the liberty of changing the links to Surprise in the book articles to this title anyway, as it is incorrect to link to this ship page without qualification. Swanny18 (talk) 02:29, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Separate article for the fictional ship seems appropriate to me. --Prairieplant (talk) 07:39, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Depends how far we want to go with having articles about fictional vessels. Though a huge fan of those books and the shipboard environment O'Brian describes, I'm not sure I see the utility of an article devoted to Aubrey's barky. That doesn't mean I'm sure there shouldn't be one; I just think we should consider whether it's warranted, and consider the precedent it might set. We could end up seeing people arguing for having articles on less significant fictional vessels. I'm having a Wikimare right now about edit wars over how to categorize the various shuttles of the various starships in the Federation fleet. And, oh God, if that's already happened, please don't tell me... Eric ^talk 14:49, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

@Prairieplant:; Eric: Thanks for your comments!

Eric: I take your point about precedents (though it's heartening that most of the titles in Category:Star Trek spacecraft are actually redirects): I'm just minded that we distinguish between ships that actually existed and ships named in the O'Brian novels (or explain the connection if there is one); maybe a list page is the answer... Swanny18 (talk) 00:40, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Swanny18: Yes, good idea, a list page might be the right approach. Eric ^talk 03:44, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

HMS Surprize?

Period sources indicate the ship's name was Surprize, and not Surprise. Here's the Naval Chronicle and a period etching. Should we change the name of the article? https://militarymaps.rct.uk/french-revolutionary-wars-1792-1802/porto-cavallo-1799?language=en https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Naval_Chronicle_Volume_2_July_Decemb/j117SeBeJg4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=surprize