Talk:Harry S. Truman
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This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.
General Concerns and Questions Q1: Should Truman's middle initial be written with a period after it? (Yes.)
A1: ![]() Q2: (Additional information on A1)
These formal style guides have been consulted:
Surprisingly, for a man of Truman's stature and given the nature of the events that he was involved in, the use of the period is the most discussed topic. See the talk page for current discussions and see the links at the top of the talk page for archived discussions. Simply changing the "S." within the article will be reverted, as it will no longer match the article title. To propose that the article be renamed, follow the instructions at requesting potentially controversial moves. Create the discussions as noted and give logical and compelling reasons for changing the article title along with supporting evidence. The supporting article Bibliography of Harry S. Truman must also be considered. As of the November 7, 2008 version,[5] there are only five instances where this could be changed:
You cannot change the "S." where it is used in a quote or as a proper name. As of the November 7, 2008 version,[6]:
Q3: Are there any cases where the "S" without the period should be used? (Yes.)
A3: Yes, but only in two cases. Proper names used in the article are:
Q4: Wasn't Truman in the KKK? (No.)
A4: According to biographer David McCullough, Truman paid a small membership fee in an effort to gain political support from members, but there is no reliable evidence that he was ever inducted or active. See details on this list of KKK members in US politics. |
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Why is there a period after his middle name?
[edit]S (just the letter) was Truman's middle name. His grandparents couldn't agree on which of their last names (both began with the letter "S") would be used, so he was simply given the middle name S. Bill S. (talk) 06:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- This exact question has been asked many times which is why we answered it at the top of this page in the FAQ. Binksternet (talk) 08:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2023
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This sentence needs a citation: "It was long thought that his retirement years were financially difficult for Truman, resulting in Congress establishing a pension for former presidents, but evidence eventually emerged that he amassed considerable wealth, some of it while still president."
I suggest three:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/the-truman-show.html
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/07/28/opinion/harry-truman-conned-us-all/ Booch221 (talk) 19:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
- While those are useful citations, and thank you, the sentence is cited to the next citation. If several sentences in a row are cited to the same source, we don't have to add citations to every sentence.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Correction to source
[edit]The information about Harry Truman practicing the piano two hours a day beginning at 5:00 in the morning was on page 61 of the David McCullough book about him. Mattbeat1981 (talk) 19:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2024
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---
His Decisive Contribution to the Vote Victory on November 29
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Press_Release_Announcing_United_States_De_Facto_Recognition_of_the_State_of_Israel_-_NARA_-_200612.tif/lossy-page1-220px-Press_Release_Announcing_United_States_De_Facto_Recognition_of_the_State_of_Israel_-_NARA_-_200612.tif.jpg)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Truman_receives_menorah.jpg/250px-Truman_receives_menorah.jpg)
Truman expressed interest in the Middle East and supported the Jewish struggle in the Land of Israel. As a senator, Truman promised Jewish leaders his support for Zionism, and at a rally in Chicago in 1943 called for the establishment of a national home for Holocaust survivors and the remaining Jews.
Ahead of the vote at the UN General Assembly on November 29, Truman decided that the United States would vote in favor of the Partition Plan. Truman did everything in his power to ensure that the majority proposal of UNSCOP would be accepted at the UN. Due to the fact that Secretary of State Marshall and senior officials Loy Henderson and others opposed US support, Truman took two main steps to ensure the partition plan's approval at the UN.
On one hand, he supported the end of the mandate and the partition plan, publicly stating that the US would support the vote because it was a just and moral decision. On the other hand, to avoid accusations of bias from the Arab bloc, he claimed that he ordered government officials not to "twist arms" and to refrain from interfering with the decisions of countries that would oppose. However, in practice, Truman managed to control the happenings at the State Department, closely monitored the Zionists' chances of success, and when he realized 72 hours before the UN vote that the opponents of the partition plan were gaining the upper hand and the Zionists were about to lose, he acted very aggressively. He himself mobilized the White House staff and gave them a "license to kill" to ensure that delegations and country representatives understood that they would face consequences if they voted against the partition plan at the UN Assembly. From an article published in June 2024 analyzing the events of the month leading up to the vote among White House staff, the Secretary of State's office, and the Zionist Agency delegation in New York, the following picture emerges: Truman appointed General John H. Hilldring as the President's Coordinator for Occupied Territories Affairs, effectively gaining control over all activities in the UN corridors and the discussions preceding the vote. The President's office, in consultation with Dr. Chaim Weizmann, appointed the world-renowned economist Robert Nathan as General Hilldring's assistant. Nathan effectively served as the White House representative in the Zionist delegation to the UN and, together with his boss General Hilldring, tried his best to help the delegation members Moshe Sharett, David Horowitz, Abba Hillel Silver, and others to meet and persuade country representatives to support the partition plan. Nathan himself actively participated in the meetings of the American Section of the Zionist Agency, which discussed ways to win the vote. On "Black Wednesday" - two and a half days before the crucial vote, the members of the Jewish Agency delegation realized that the chances of winning the vote they had managed to postpone from Thanksgiving Eve were slim. During the holiday and until Saturday when the vote was held, Truman applied pressure on every delegation and leader who publicly stated that they would vote against the partition plan. Dave Niles, the President's personal assistant, forced the US ambassador to the UN and his staff to act against the State Department's policy and do everything to ensure the vote passed at the UN General Assembly. Robert Nathan and Bernard Baruch called leaders on behalf of the President and threatened that if they voted against the proposal, it would harm the US President and their country would suffer economically - they would be denied aid, or investments that could help develop the country would be postponed. Truman himself feigned ignorance and in response to several complaints received by the Secretary of State from country representatives, published a memo stating, "Someone threatened in my name, and I was not aware of it at all."
The Acquaintance with Ed Jacobson and Its Contribution to the Vote Victory on November 29
[edit]Truman's relationship with Eddie Jacobson, greatly contributed to the President's understanding of the Zionist issue in general, and representatives of American Jewry made wise use of these connections to create a direct and open line with Truman. The two were true friends from the day they met in World War I and fought together in the artillery battalion until their deaths. Jacobson and Truman were partners in a hat store, went bankrupt during the Great Depression, and their friendship remained stable both when Truman was elected as a judge, after he was elected as a senator, and throughout his political career from his appointment as Vice President to his inauguration after Roosevelt's death. About a year before the vote, attorney A.G. Granoff, who worked in the B'nai B'rith organization, connected representatives of the Jewish lobby with his close friend Ed Jacobson. Granoff himself knew Harry Truman well and helped him and his friend Jacobson throughout the legal saga after the two went bankrupt. According to Granoff's testimony, during the discussions that took place at the UN from August until the vote on November 29, the two met with President Truman eight times. In these meetings, the two arrived at the White House without scheduling an official meeting to convey messages and information to Truman about what was happening, and the latter never refused to meet with them. [[#ref_Noam N. Tepper, Exposing Truman's true contribution to the victory on November 29, 1947, Academia, Pages 1-10|^]] Truman publicly denied his intervention and contribution to the victory in the crucial UN vote. In a meeting held a few days after the vote with Jorge Garcia-Granados, Guatemala's ambassador to the UN, Truman told him privately that he personally supported the partition decision "because it was just and moral," but ordered his officials not to twist arms. The only time he allowed himself to talk about his contribution was in a meeting held in his office at the White House where he hosted his two close friends Ed Jacobson and attorney Granoff. The two arrived on December 8, 1947, from Kansas just to thank him for his assistance. In this meeting held in the Purple Room, the US President admitted to his friend and partner that "I, and only I, caused several delegations to support the partition vote at the UN." [[#ref_Noam N. Tepper, Truman and his contribution to the victory in the November 29, 1947 vote, Academia website, Pages 1-10|^]]
--- NoamNTepper (talk) 06:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit semi-protected}}
template. This is not a minor change to be made using the Edit Request template. Additionally, this strikes me as less encylopedic than the present text. PianoDan (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
The section on the atomic bomb gives undue weight to the views of U.S. and its supporters.
[edit]Add this topic per User:Wehwalt. ——🦝 The Interaccoonale Will be the raccoon race (talk・contribs) 01:26, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Can you give examples of this? Wehwalt (talk) 01:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- This biography is the exact place for giving context to Truman's decision to drop the bombs, or at least his decision not to call off the dropping of the bombs. A global viewpoint would be more appropriate at the article about the bombs. Binksternet (talk) 02:02, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- If so, William Shockley's opinion and U.S. Army's document should not be included.
- It is reasonable to focus on Truman's views in his own article, but the section also includes the views of his many colleagues and supporters, but very few views of his opponents. I would suggest organize this section like this: the history should appears first, followed by Truman's own views, because this is his own article, so it can have a relatively higher weight. Finally, give the views of his supporters and opponents, and this part should be in a reasonable weight. ——🦝 The Interaccoonale Will be the raccoon race (talk・contribs) 02:20, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I see it, we give Truman's views, and a brief summary of the arguments of the supporters and opposers. Are there specific sources/quotations you think should be in there? Wehwalt (talk) 12:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- William Shockley's opinion and U.S. Army's document are given in detail in the article. It is not "a brief summary". But the opposing opinion only took up one sentence. ——🦝 The Interaccoonale Will be the raccoon race (talk・contribs) 13:49, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do you have any particular sources in mind for the opposing view? Wehwalt (talk) 14:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- William Shockley's opinion and U.S. Army's document are given in detail in the article. It is not "a brief summary". But the opposing opinion only took up one sentence. ——🦝 The Interaccoonale Will be the raccoon race (talk・contribs) 13:49, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I see it, we give Truman's views, and a brief summary of the arguments of the supporters and opposers. Are there specific sources/quotations you think should be in there? Wehwalt (talk) 12:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
unsupported claims of Truman guilt
[edit]I dropped these text added by Maurnxiao that lacks reliable sources. The one source he provides never mentions Truman in any w and it makes no mention of 1,500,000 dead civilians. Now Maurnxiao has restored his claims and makes his personal opinion that " He personally authorised the vast bombing campaign that slaughtered possibly more than a million civilians and had ultimate authority ov er the actions of America's military in 1st ROK, so the Bodo League massacre belongs here." The source he cites says the opposite--it says that the South Koreans were sovereign in their own country and made the decisions. The source does not claim evidence of approval by the US military and no evidence that Truman ever knew about them. Rjensen (talk) 02:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- False. The 1st ROK was was American puppet state carved up after the division of Korea with the Soviets. Eventually the two were meant to unify but the lunacy of Rhee SyngMan, underscored by the massacres perpetrated during his rule, made the process more difficult. And I providedsources showing American authorization of some of the executions. The story was buried by the Korean US-backed military dictatorships that ruled the country basically until 1992. I provided a source that showed Truman authorizing bombing of North Korea, and a historian describing the campaign as a genocide. Maurnxiao (talk) 03:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The problem is that Maurnxiao does not provide reliable sources, and he misreads what he does have. For US guilt he depends on the daughter of an executed civilians: his source states: "the 57-year-old woman believes South Koreans alone are not to blame. "Although we can't present concrete evidence, we bereaved families believe the United States has some responsibility for this," she told the AP" He does not mention that in the same BBC source we have a much better authority: "Frank Winslow, a military adviser at Daejeon .... "The Koreans were sovereign. To me, there was never any question that the Koreans were in charge," he said in a telephone interview." The US treated Rhee as the final decision maker. Rhee repeatedly rejected US advice during the war--he was not a puppet. For example the US ambassador Muccio insisted that Rhee stay in Seoul early in war (June 25) and he refused. Ambassador Mussio told Rhee NOT to massacre pro-North Korean civilians and Rhee ignored it. Truman and UN did indeed authorize bombing of North Korea--Maurnxiao decides that bombing is "genocide" and invents the notion of 1,5 million civilians killed by US--which reliable source states that? Rjensen (talk) 03:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is an outrageous bit of historical revisionism that pretends US military officers are impartial sources and that claims I made up the genocide claim – I specifically cited a historian. The death toll in North Korea is freely available information which you are choosing to ignore. Your own articles bring up American sources estimating the North Korean death toll at around a million and a half. The notion that I made it up is appalling. Maurnxiao (talk) 03:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- First of all--the lead section summarizes the text and does not att new ideas. The changes have to be made first in the section on Korea (section 6.3.2 below). New changes have to be based on scholarship on Truman which is extensive on Korean war. Maurnxiao should read up on Truman if he wants to contribute to the main Wikipedia article on Truman. A good review of the scholarship by Matray appears in https://doi.org/10.1002/9781118300718.ch26 Rjensen (talk) 07:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is an outrageous bit of historical revisionism that pretends US military officers are impartial sources and that claims I made up the genocide claim – I specifically cited a historian. The death toll in North Korea is freely available information which you are choosing to ignore. Your own articles bring up American sources estimating the North Korean death toll at around a million and a half. The notion that I made it up is appalling. Maurnxiao (talk) 03:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The problem is that Maurnxiao does not provide reliable sources, and he misreads what he does have. For US guilt he depends on the daughter of an executed civilians: his source states: "the 57-year-old woman believes South Koreans alone are not to blame. "Although we can't present concrete evidence, we bereaved families believe the United States has some responsibility for this," she told the AP" He does not mention that in the same BBC source we have a much better authority: "Frank Winslow, a military adviser at Daejeon .... "The Koreans were sovereign. To me, there was never any question that the Koreans were in charge," he said in a telephone interview." The US treated Rhee as the final decision maker. Rhee repeatedly rejected US advice during the war--he was not a puppet. For example the US ambassador Muccio insisted that Rhee stay in Seoul early in war (June 25) and he refused. Ambassador Mussio told Rhee NOT to massacre pro-North Korean civilians and Rhee ignored it. Truman and UN did indeed authorize bombing of North Korea--Maurnxiao decides that bombing is "genocide" and invents the notion of 1,5 million civilians killed by US--which reliable source states that? Rjensen (talk) 03:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
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