Talk:History of the National Hockey League (1967–1992)

3rd para of Twenty-one teams

I used online stats to get the info for that paragraph? I might as well as the online source instead of the books, as most of their careers hadn't finished when they were published? (We're going to have to use mostly online sources for the 1992- section, so I'm probably going to have to "crossover" in that section.) Maxim (☎) 19:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That was my expectation as well. The 1992-present article at least will have easy access to Sports Illustrated and New York Times online archives. We're definitely getting to the point where book sources are no longer as useful. Reso lute 20:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from article

As I did with the 1992-pres. article:

to do: 

-----

==Fall of the Iron Curtain==
Demise of the Soviet Bloc, and the influx of Eastern European players beginning in 1989
Expansion plans - San Jose Sharks added in 1991, new teams planned for 1992-93

==Rules and innovations==
rule changes
growth of the draft

-------

Rough timeline:

==World Hockey Association==
WHA demise and merger with NHL
Legacy, and how the WHA changed the NHL
1972 - 1979 (kinda done? --Maxim )

==Summit Series==
The 1972 Summit Series
1976, 1981, 1984, 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups
Super Series

==Twenty-one teams==
New York Islanders dynasty
Billy Smith first to score goal as goaltender
Edmonton Oilers dynasty (Battle of Alberta)
Wayne Gretzky (trade to LA)

==Fall of the Iron Curtain==
Demise of the Soviet Bloc, and the influx of Eastern European players beginning in 1989
Expansion plans - San Jose Sharks added in 1991, new teams planned for 1992-93

==Rules and innovations==
rule changes
growth of the draft

--Maxim (☎) 00:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Summit Series

I think the section should focus a little less on the play-by-play and more on some of the impacts of the series: proving European players can compete just as well as North Americans; emphasizing the importance of fitness; emphasizing the importance of teamwork over strong individual efforts.-Wafulz (talk) 18:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The article on the Summit Series can go into the details of important plays. This article should cover mainly the impact of the series on Canadian hockey, on Russian hockey, and on international hockey. Perhaps a mention of very well-known events, such as Phil Esposito's emotional outburst on national TV after Game 4, or Henderson's goal in Game 8, could be mentioned here. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, impact on Canadian, Soviet and international hockey would be beyond the scope of this article. Though, a fair bit of the current prose would be as well, I suppose. It certainly can be rewritten to reduce some of the gameplay, though I think Esposito's speech, and the game eight plays are of key importance to the topic. Reso lute 21:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Series' impact specifically on the NHL falls within the scope of the article. I'd be okay with a paragraph or two discussing it.-Wafulz (talk) 17:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, yes I forgot what I was talking about there. The impact on the NHL and the change in how the North American pro hockey establishment perceived Russian hockey. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 19:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

The three NHL history articles should have links to each other. I see why this article starts with 1967, but why does it end in 1992? More later — Rlevse • Talk • 19:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's sectioned off by 25 years; as for the links, there's a navigation template in the lead. Maxim_(talk) 20:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They are also linked in one of the NHL templates at the bottom. The articles are each divided into 25-year blocks, though 1992 is a reasonable cut off time, albeit much more subtle than 1942 (beginning of the Original 6) and 1967 (end of it) are. The time-frame around 1992 saw the first NHL players strike that led to the ouster of Ziegler, and later the hiring of Bettman, who was hired with the intention of bringing the game into a new era. Reso lute 22:38, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Corporate structure and head office move

I'm adding this note to three talk pages: the talk pages for the NHL, the history of the NHL, and the history of the NHL 1967-92. Please post any responses at the third of these locations, as this is the most specific of the three pages.

---

I've just added a short section to the two history pages about John Ziegler's move of the NHL head office from Montreal to New York. It strikes me as an action of considerable symbolic importance, but I've been able to find very little in writing about it, so I can't provide details or a usable cite.

A friend in New York phoned the NHL head office and was told it moved there in 1977 after Ziegler took office. My friend searched the New York Times online at his library using ProQuest and I searched the Globe and Mail the same way. I found that the exact date Ziegler's presidency began was August 26, 1977, and we both found articles from earlier that year speculating that if Ziegler got the job then he was likely to move the HQ out of Montreal, but it wasn't clear where to. Whether because ProQuest searches are not entirely reliable or because nothing further was reported or because we both missed something, neither of us found any further details or confirmation of the move.

Besides the symbolism of the move, there is also a legal issue: corporations can't normally just move from one country to another. (The NHL must be a corporation, because it gets sued on occasion.) Did the move involve reincorporating the NHL, or did it already consist of separate companies in each country and their relationship changed, or what? I haven't found anything at all in writing anywhere that covers the NHL's corporate structure, and that seems like a topic that belongs on the main NHL page.

--208.76.104.133 (talk) 05:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While I was writing this talk page note, someone reverted my added section on the grounds that it was "completely out of scope" for the page. I find that bizarre; it is certainly a notable event and it happened to the NHL during the relevant years. I'm unreverting it.

--208.76.104.133 (talk) 05:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you read up on no original research. Regards. —Krm500 ^{(Communicate!)} 05:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be silly. Newspapers are acceptable Wikipedia sources. I mentioned the phone call because it indicated what year's newspapers to look at. --208.76.104.133 (talk) 23:50, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your statement as being out of scope as of the three sentences, two of them pertained to different time periods (i.e.: the first American team in 1924, which is already stated). Obviously there is no legal issue with a league that opened an office in the US 30 years ago, so that's a dead end. Thus, the only question that remains is whether the league keeping an office in New York is notable. Especially since the league also keeps an office in Toronto. I would also comment on the issue of undue weight. There is no need for an entire section on this. However, if you can find a citable reference from a reliable source, it certainly could be stated as part of an existing section discussing Ziegler. Reso lute 14:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My text had two sentences, of which half of the first sentence pertained to a different time period -- that's historical context, which is appopriate for a historical article. The notability is about location of the league's head office -- it's not even in the country the league is named after, for goodness' sake! As for weight, the section should be expanded to talk about why the move was considered appropriate, i.e. in relation to the league's revenue sources, whether there were tax reasons, that sort of thing.

Bottom line, I'm reverting this again. It is not necessary to have a citable source before adding it; that's what "fact" tags are for, and I'll put one on this time. Uncited material may be removed if challenged, but in this case the evidence I cited above -- both the original and newspaper research -- support the facts as stated.

--208.76.104.133 (talk) 23:50, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted again. 1. Most of your addition is irrelevant to this article (history of American teams in the NHL - that is already stated in the articles that cover the appropriate timeframes), 2. giving an entire section to a simple office move is placing undue weight on a piece of trivia, and 3, you even declare in hidden text that your statement is currently uncitable. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. Simply put, an uncited asssertion may be challenged and removed, and anything that is "uncitable" should not be added. Please find an appropriate source, afterwhich we can figure out how best to state that the league offices moved to New York. Reso lute 00:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a note, I have invited other editors at WP:HOCKEY to add their input. I am happy to add a sentence noting that Ziegler moved the office to New York when he was hired after we find a citation - and if you can give me date range a little more narrow than "after August 1977", I'll even go digging through newspaper archives myself to find it, but a stub section that is mostly irrelevant to this article is not necessary. Reso lute 00:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a cite, but I believe how they got around it was they have a dual head office set up. Toronto is I believe their true head office while New York works as a satelite office. However, for all true purposes New York is the main head office. -Djsasso (talk) 13:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Djsasso's comment moved from Talk:National Hockey League by — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

A single sentence on the main office being moved would be useful, but unless there is a reliable source to back it up, then it is reasonable to keep it out. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On page 2 of his June 9, 2009, Declaration filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the District of Arizona, NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman states the NHL Structure to be as follows:

"The NHL is an unincorporated association, organized as a joint venture to operate a League consisting of thirty Member Clubs, including the Phoenix Coyotes. The NHL's headquarter offices are in New York, New York. The NHL has other offices in Toronto. Ontario and Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Each Member Club operates a professional hockey team in North America. The NHL teams are located in a diverse group of cities throughout the United States and Canada."

The same language also appears in Articles I and II of the NHL Constitution. Centpacrr (talk) 04:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only real reason I think of Toronto/New York as a co-headquarters situation is that on every single goal that goes upstairs that I have ever seen they say they are going to the head office in Toronto for review. While I agree New York is held up as the head office, perhaps they consider each the head office of their respective countries? -DJSasso (talk) 04:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The office contacted in Toronto from the on-site video replay booth in each arena to review goals is not the "head office" of the NHL, but is the so-called "war room" which is a state of the art video review facility located on the 11th floor at 50 Bay Street adjacent to the Air Canada Centre. This room is a part of the Hockey Operations Department and is managed by Colin Campbell's top deputy, Mike Murphy. Other NHL functions located in Toronto are the statistical offices, central scouting, a couple of PR people, officiating offices, and the like. All NHL "executive" functions, however, are carried out in New York by the more than sixty people that staff the headquarter offices at 1185 Avenue of the Americas including the Commissioner, Deputy Commissioner, COO, league counsel, broadcast offices, marketing departments, licensing operations, PR department, etc. I invite your attention again to Commissioner Bettman's sworn Declaration filed with the US Bankruptcy Court in Arizona noted above in which he unequivocally states that the "NHL's headquarter offices are in New York, New York" with "other" offices in Toronto and Montreal. (All NHL publications also list the New York office first and identify it as the league's "Headquarters.") Centpacrr (talk) 05:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Rules and innovations

"Expansion to 18 teams in 1974 caused the league to realign into two conferences and four divisions, each named after important figures in league history."

As the new divisions often defied geography, naming them was problematical. For a time, the designation was simply "Division I," "Division II," "Division III," and "Division IV," but that must have carried qualitative connotations. By the time the season began, they had installed the names of the notable owners and builders. WHPratt (talk) 18:02, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, interesting. Do you have a source for that? Maxim_(talk) 20:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Only my memory. I'd think that newspaper microfilm would bear this out, but don't have such access at present. WHPratt (talk) 13:26, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I routinely go through microfilm for historical tidbits such as this. If you have a reasonable date range in mind, it is something I could add to my todo pile. That being said, it may be getting a little too much into the minutae for this article. Reso lute 19:40, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest checking opening night of the NHL season for the first year of the four-division setup. I suspect that it will show Adams, Norris, Patrick and Smythe, in which case you'd have to backtrack until the older designation shows up. With ProQuest, a search for a string like "Division IV" might do it (though it might also pick up a lot of high school sports as well). I remember some columnist, probably in The Sporting News, arguing (in jest) that there was no need to invoke the Founding Fathers of Hockey, that the divisions were already named for famous people. Division III, for example, was named for King Richard III, who offered to trade his franchise for a horse, that sort of thing. (I only mention this in support of my memory-based claim: you don't think i'd have imagined a thing like that, right?) WHPratt (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1975?

"that toured North America between 1975 and 1991 in what was known as the Super Series": That article says 1976, so I went with that at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 28, 2015. - Dank (push to talk) 20:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dank: - 1975 was probably a typo, but I will double check in a little while when I can access a couple books. Reso lute 20:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Expansion era"?

The opening sentence read in conjunction with the article title implies that the entire period 1967–92 was known as the "expansion era", but the rest of the lede suggests that only 1967-79 an era of expansion. Does anybody outside Wikipedia think the "expansion era" ended in 1992? Google Books evidence is not convincing; it shows a couple of books using the same end date as Wikipedia, but published after this article, so I wouldn't rule out WP:CIRC. While it's easy to divide the NHL into "pre-expansion era" and "post-expansion era", the latter means "the era after the 1967 expansion", not "the era during which the NHL was expanding". Expansion has proceeded intermittently since 1967. It seems particularly arbitrary to include the San Jose expansion in 1991 but leave out the Tampa Bay / Ottawa expansion the following year. There may be good reasons for choosing 1992 as a cut-off date for a split into eras, but expansion is not one of them. jnestorius^(talk) 16:21, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. We don't want to use any handy term to refer to an era if many readers aren't on board with the particular term ... it isn't helpful or necessary to invite battles over semantics. Looking forward to replies on this before April 28, when this article will hit the Main Page. - Dank (push to talk) 16:46, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to remember my motivations from six years ago, but the title may have been chosen as a convenience, since the period of this article's scope starts with a major expansion and ends with the league beginning another. The period of stability from 1979-1990 was relatively short. I am fine with modifying it, however. Hell, I think current MOS also says not to bold the title unless it matches the article title. Reso lute 20:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and the title was not meant to imply the expansion era ended in 1992. The end point for this article was chosen semi-arbitrarily so as to match the time frame of the first two articles. There is a logical breakpoint, however, as that was within the time frame when the league was transitioning from the Ziegler era to Bettman (who, naturally, leads off the fourth article). Reso lute 20:53, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion era section is highlighted as featured article on Wikipedia homepage today - congratulations! Garchy (talk) 14:00, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

" the title was not meant to imply the expansion era ended in 1992" -- well, too bad, that's what it does. jnestorius^(talk) 16:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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