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Panjang/panjai

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Can anyone confirm the difference between the two spellings? Panjang is the correct Malay spelling so I'm guessing Panjai is the Indonesian spelling but perhaps it's the Iban spelling. If you know, go ahead and update the article... Nil Einne 17:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I remember "panjai" is indeed the Iban version of the Malay "panjang". Iban and Malay are closely related languages, whilst Indonesian and Malay are rather a political exageration of originaly dialect level differences. By now the gap may have become considerable larger though. In the Punan article there is yet another local word used to describe a longhouse: "Luvok".
See this article for the usage in Bahasa Melayu ms:Rumah panjang but note also this one for usage in Indonesian id:Suku Dayak Mualang (search for the string rumah and you will find this: "Rumah Panjai ( rumah panggung yang panjang )" with "panjai" beeing the local version used by this ethnic group and "panjang" the official indonesian version just as it is used some lines further down in the same text). T.woelk 09:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nil Einne Panjai is the Iban word for its malay equilavent of "panjang" or "long" in english.I'm not so sure about the word "Luvok",but I'm pretty sure that "Panjai" is what Iban use to describe "Long" or "Panjang", if there is another word for it;might just be from a different ethnic group of the dayaks,which speaks a totally different dialect than the Ibans :)

Cheers~




English>>long Malay>>panjang Iban>>panjai

it is that simple. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.75.62.14 (talk) 06:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I can confirm that spelling. "Panjai" is the definition for long, as in "rumah panjai" for long house. "Lubok" is a deep section of a river, however most usage such as "Lubok Antu" is the name for a district in Sarawak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.111.1.44 (talk) 10:25, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

REDRAFTING

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Nuju Matthew Timbang

Sebedau aku nulis karangan tenya, I'd like to say that the Article in question needs some serious re-editing. Hopefully, this should be done in a few weeks, time allowing.

Tuai 21:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nuju Tuai

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Yo, thanks for the reminder, but this article is not started by me and I think I need everybody's help in improving this article. This article is clearly written if not coppied, from one of Benedict Sandin's work or from The Sarawak Museum Journal. Some of the facts here are disputed, as it has some derogatory remarks on my people, the Saribas. Thanks & slamat ari Gawai.

ALSO IT DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE ARICULTURE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.105.47 (talk) 20:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This whole page needs editing

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Not only is there a lot of bad grammar and incorrect spellings, but it is very clearly copied from another source, and needs to be resolved.

I'd flag it for editing (not meeting Wikipedia's standards) but I don't know how.

I admit that my grammar is by your standards poor, but I refuse to accept the fact that it was copied. Copied??? This shit is of my own, you cock sucking son of a b**ch!!! If you're so smart, why don't you do something about it rather than exposing your retardness by saying: I'd flag it for editing (not meeting Wikipedia's standards) but I don't know how. The previous section Iban history was copied (by someone else) from a book which is the Sarawak Museum Journal, but I have made massive changes. If you are so upright brave and correct, don't forget to sign your posts using four tildes, which is a Wikipedia standard when you post (in your case, retarded) comments here. F**k you! (Matt McSales 03:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)) You certainly know nuts about the Iban people, their history, way of life and their cultural heritage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.152.12 (talk) 15:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Knowing nuts is better than being like you; not knowing anything, which is as close to stupidity and retardedness. Get a life, loser.Matt McSales (talk) 11:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

manusia (man)

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"The origin of the name Iban is a mystery, although many theories exist. During the British colonial era, the Ibans were called Sea Dayaks. Some believe that the word Iban was an ancient original Iban word for people or man. The modern-day Iban word for people or man is mensia, a slightly modified Malay loan word of the same meaning (manusia) of Sanskrit Roor."

A few points here:

  1. Manusia is hardly sanskrit. It's arabic
  2. Typo 'Sanskrit Roor' should have been 'Sanskrit Root' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Helmihamid (talk • contribs) 06:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually "manusia" IS a Sanskrit loanword (मनुष्य=manusya). Arabic term for "human" is إنسان (insaan). Matahari Pagi (talk) 11:15, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Endorsement of ethnic cleansing?

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Doesn't the article appear to justify ethnic cleansing and cannibalism? i.e. "Confrontation was the only way of survival....In those days, the way of war was the only way that any Dayak tribe could achieve prosperity and fortune. Dayak warfare was brutal and bloody, to the point of ethnic cleansing." I suggest that it be re-written so as to not be quite so apologetic of war and ethnic cleansing - or cannibalism.203.184.41.226 (talk) 22:13, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This text has since been removed. -- Beland (talk) 13:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources on Sea Dyak (Iban) people

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The natives of Sarawak and British North Borneo; based chiefly on the mss. of the late H. B. Low, Sarawak government service (1896)

https://archive.org/details/nativessarawaka01lowgoog

Iban Sea Dyak

A Sea Dyak dictionary, in alphabetical parts, with examples and quotations shewing the use and meaning of words (1900)

https://archive.org/details/aseadyakdiction00bailgoog

The Sea-Dyaks of Borneo (1917)

https://archive.org/details/cu31924023260197

https://archive.org/details/cu31924023510005

Seventeen years among the Sea Dyaks of Borneo; a record of intimate association with the natives of the Bornean jungles (1911)

https://archive.org/details/seventeenyearsa00gomegoog

https://archive.org/details/seventeenyearsa01gomegoog

https://archive.org/details/seventeenyearsam00gomeuoft

Rajmaan (talk) 14:21, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

pronunciation

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http://dictionary.infoplease.com/iban --Espoo (talk) 09:33, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Necessity to split article due to size

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The entry feels too big and is really straining on the reader. I propose splitting the some of the topics on this entry into separate articles. The example process of creating offshoot entries revolving around Māori people → Māori politics + Māori mythology + Māori traditional textiles etc come to mind here.

Anumengelamun (talk) 02:12, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I second the idea of splitting the article. However there might be a few issues. Some of the sections lack citations. Splitting those sections as an independent article will eventually lead to their deletion if those issues are not being addressed immediately. Which almost makes no difference if those sections are deleted in this article itself in order to reduce the enormous size. But I think it good to give those sections without citation a chance to be improved by wikipedians who are experts in this topic. So either way, you may split the article now but make sure that there's an immediate follow up to improve those newly split articles with more citations, or improve those sections without citation here in this article before splitting them. If there are sections that already have good sources and citations, then you may go ahead with the splitting. Just my 2 cents. Jeblat (talk) 16:59, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the sections need to separate due to the article is too long. The author who wrote the section hope to take note of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.164.168.118 (talk) 15:19, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed to separate the sections as necessary as long as they are hyperlinked. Jo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:1980:8181:778C:E433:E5ED:4954:AE61 (talk) 17:02, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2018

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121.121.14.129 (talk) 04:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
james taka faehrmann is a iban warrior co of hes bush and hes gpa is taka so he is taka he lives in bangsar and goes to alice smith school, he lives near pantaihospital and has 3 btothers , joshua,ryan and alex, his mum is iban but his ad dad is aussie[reply]
 Not done: No notability. — IVORK Discuss 21:43, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Non-English words

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This article uses an excessive number of Iban words, rather than simply leaving the English translation when it would do. I cleaned up formatting instead of dropping them immediately; upon reflection it might be a good idea to make sure they are listed in Wiktionary before removing them. -- Beland (talk) 13:21, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The original Iban words were added as part of reference (which Wikipedia insists to be added) and thus act as evidence of the existence of those points written about. Feel free to add Wiktionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:1980:8181:778C:E433:E5ED:4954:AE61 (talk) 17:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Iban Religion: Supreme Being besides Animism

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There are many sources which point out the belief in a Supreme Being among the Dyaks, most of which are quoted in Pettazzoni, Raffaelle, The All Knowing God, London, 1954, pp. 331-3; and earlier, idem., Dio, 1922, pp. 121-7. Here I will give examples, exhorting those in charge to update their section on the religious beliefs which is very poorly referenced and misleading insofar as it tells the reader that the natives had exclusively animistic beliefs, when they also believed in a Supreme Being.

The Iban are known to recognize Petara, whose name is of hindu origin, and Alata'ala/Hatalla from islamic origin. However, the original name of the Supreme Being is neither hindu or islamic and refers to an original belief of a Supreme Being before external influences: his name is Tupa (Tuppa/Tapa), from the word tumpa ("mold") and meaning "Creator". (Pettazzoni, 1922, 121).

Among other Dyak tribes we also find the belief in a Supreme Being:

The Bahau of Mahakam = Timei Tinggei, who lives in heaven with his wife Uniang Tenangan, is omniscient and pnishes man's sins with bad crops and other disasters.

The Kayan = Laki Tenangan (wife is Doh Tenangan) The Kenyah = Balli Penyalong (wife is Do Penyalong) The Klementan = Balli Utong The Punan = Balli Lutong.

Pettazzoni, 1954, 332 concludes "It is therefore, it would seem, the most primitive inhabitants of Borneo, perhaps the first dwellers on the island, who have the idea of a single Supreme Being, whereas the agricultural peoples have a divine pair which, although not exactly Sky and Earth, already involves a dualistic principle."

The idea that primitive peoples like the Iban had only religious beliefs of animism is a very wrong idea that has been long ago proven mistaken, since it was shown in the 20th century that most of the cultures around the world had native ideas of a Supreme Being. Animism, totemism, ancestor worship, magic, and other forms of reigious worship all coexist with monotheistic and/or polytheistic notions, and Borneo is not an exepetion to this well known fact in the history of religions.

I suggest that the part on religion be changes in such a way that the reader understands that besides animistic beliefs there were also beliefs in a Supreme Being who punished incest and other sins with the weather, much like other Supreme Beings of the area...

Best regards, Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoriuken17 (talk • contribs) 02:56, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with your suggestion and view. However, the Iban worships the supreme being (cree) under whom there are deities or petaras but not the animals proper that represent the deities on this Earth. In fact, the animals can be eaten as a source of protein and food. By animism, I understand it as worshiping the animals proper to obtain their potent or power, etc.. which is not the case in the Iban religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:1980:8181:778C:E433:E5ED:4954:AE61 (talk) 17:15, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2018

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Footnotes 4 and 5 are dead. I found a link that provides the same information on longhouses - "rumah panjai" here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160403040118/https://ibancustoms.wordpress.com/iban-history-in-brief/. Please help update the link. Kmeiyin (talk) 09:39, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done with this edit. Archive.org is helpful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting Iban culture and Handicrafts

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Agreed to split these subtopics into a separate section as long as with hyperlink. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:1980:8181:778C:E433:E5ED:4954:AE61 (talk) 17:24, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed

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An IP editor (113.211.149.102) has, in good faith, disputed large amounts of this article. They have, unfortunately, inserted a lot of comments in unsuitable places, for example using the "quote" parameter of references so that instead of quoting a relevant bit of reference, the reference has someone's personal opinion of its quality attached to it in quotation marks. They've also inserted unreferenced opinions elsewhere in the text. This editor is clearly very knowledgeable on the subject of the Iban people, which I am not. They have raised serious questions about the accuracy of the article, questions which ought to be addressed. But the job must be done properly, with new, alternative references to support any point of view that is expressed here.

For this reason, I am reverting their work, but inserting a {{disputed}} tag on the article. If you are the editor, and you're annoyed at what I've done, please forgive me, but please also find some references to support the changes you'd like to make. If you're someone else, have a look at the article's history, to see the disputed statements, and please do feel free to improve the article! Elemimele (talk) 08:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Siapa nama

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Siapa nama 61.6.233.186 (talk) 22:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistencies in Iban origin and population

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I've conducted a thorough review of a recent edit by user Menuaibansarawak regarding the history of the Iban people, and I've identified notable inconsistencies that warrant detailed discussion.

1. Conflicting Origin Theories:

  • User Menuaibansarawak divided the section into two theories – one suggesting the Iban originated from Kapuas Hulu (referred to as the "old theory") and another proposing an origin in Niah 40,000 years ago (referred to as the "new theory").
  • However, the supporting reference for the new theory, "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes," actually indicates the Iban's presence in Kapuas Hulu 400 years ago, not the claimed 40,000 years in Niah.

2. Incomplete Information about Niah Cave:

  • The source mentions human presence in Niah Cave 45,000 to 50,000 years ago, where the Iban reside today.
  • However, the same reference does not clarify that the early population of Niah Cave were ethnic Ibans. It's essential to note that the mass migrations to northern Sarawak, around Niah, occurred in the late 19th century, suggesting a distinction between the ancient occupants and the modern Iban population.

3. Kingdom of Panggau Libau Claim:

  • User Menuaibansarawak stated that the Iban originated from the Kingdom of Panggau Libau, asserting it has the longest history in Borneo.
  • However, this claim lacks proper citation, raising concerns about the accuracy and reliability of the information.

4. Discrepancy in Reported Iban Population:

  • User Menuaibansarawak edited the article to state that the Iban population numbers approximately 975,452+ in Sarawak, 24,000+ in Sabah, 13,000+ in Johor, and 10,000+ in Selangor.
  • The user cited the source "Launching of Report on the Key Findings Population and Housing Census of Malaysia 2020."
  • However, upon review, the source only indicates an Iban population of around 753,500 nationwide.

Native99girl (talk) 01:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indonesian? No wonder. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 06:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the articles mention about Iban origin from Niah caves? Do you fucking read it? Or you just make your own statement. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 06:34, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.Concerns about Language:
  • I hope this message finds you well. While discussing recent edits to the Iban people article, I've observed some language that can be perceived as disrespectful.
  • Maintaining a professional and respectful tone is crucial for effective collaboration on Wikipedia. Let's aim to keep our communication constructive and focused on improving the quality of the article.
2.Clarification on Source Content:
  • Additionally, I'd like to bring to your attention that I have read the article you referenced, "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes."
  • The source states that the Iban are believed to have migrated from the headwaters of the Kapuas River in the central highlands of Borneo, with the first wave occurring approximately 400 years ago.
  • I'd like to clarify that, upon reviewing the provided source, there was no mention of an "old theory" or a "modern theory" regarding the Iban's migration. Even the modern theory from the source you provided supports the idea that the Iban migrated from the headwaters of the Kapuas River in the central highlands of Borneo. Let's ensure the article accurately reflects this information.
3. Inconsistency in Edits and Source Absence:
  • I have noted inconsistencies in some of the edits made, such as the information derived from the Malaysian census. Citations are essential for the reliability and verifiability of information on Wikipedia. I kindly request that you provide references for these edits to maintain the credibility of the article.
  • Additionally, in some edits, statements have been introduced without proper sources. It's crucial to include reliable references for all added information to uphold the standards of Wikipedia.
--Native99girl (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the sources does support the Kapuas theory. But the one they search is the origin of Iban in Sarawak. The oldest ever found fossil of Iban is in Sarawak. Why are denying the fact that wa stated in the source? Menuaibansarawak (talk) 06:41, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fossils in Niah Cave:
  • The fossil evidence found in Niah Cave dates back at least 50,000 years, offering insights into ancient human habitation in the region. However, it's crucial to consider the substantial migration of the Iban people to Niah in the 19th century. Therefore, the fossil evidence, while ancient, may not directly represent the Iban ethnically due to the more recent migration history.
1. Genetic Insights from "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes":
  • The autosomal analysis from the source reveals that the Iban are most genetically similar to mainland Southeast Asian groups. There is relatively minor influence from Taiwanese agriculturalists compared to mainland Southeast Asians and Indonesians.
  • It's important to clarify that the mentioned source does not explicitly provide a classic or modern theory about the Iban's origin.
2. Omission of References and Irregularities in Editing
  • During our discussion of edits, a noticeable pattern emerges involving a lack of proper sources in certain instances and inconsistencies in the presented information. For instance, notable examples include the absence of citations in information derived from the Malaysian census and the claim about the Kingdom of Panggau Libau.
  • Addressing these instances is crucial for maintaining the accuracy and reliability of the article on Wikipedia. Your insights into these specific cases would be highly valuable in improving the overall quality of the content.
--Native99girl (talk) 01:13, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You did not answer my question. You said the article support the Kapuas migration, while there is no mention. I'm Iban myself, and I know where our ancestors came from. And there is many theories. Temburong, Kapuas, Batang Lupar, Tampun Juah. All of this is just a oral history. Now we have the Niah theory which conclude that Iban people already live in Sarawak more than 50, 000 years, and we did not migrate from any part after the Taiwan migration. Iban people from Indonesia also said they came from Sarawak. And you would said we came from Kapuas? Typical Indonesian. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 01:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's essential to acknowledge that migration doesn't necessarily erase the historical significance of a location. Even if the Iban people migrated to Niah in the 19th century, the fossil evidence from at least 50,000 years ago still provides insights into the broader history of human habitation in the region. The presence of earlier populations should not be dismissed solely based on more recent migrations.
  • While the autosomal analysis suggests genetic similarities with mainland Southeast Asian groups, it's crucial to consider the dynamic nature of human populations and genetic intermingling over time. Genetic studies may not capture the entire complexity of historical migrations and interactions, and the influence from Taiwanese agriculturalists might be more nuanced than implied.
  • While the source may not explicitly provide a classic or modern theory about the Iban's origin, it's common in scientific research to focus on specific aspects of genetic evidence rather than providing comprehensive origin theories. Genetic studies often contribute to a broader understanding when combined with other archaeological and historical evidence.
  • While the absence of citations is a valid concern for maintaining accuracy, it's crucial to investigate whether the information in question might be widely accepted within the academic community or if it requires additional references. Not all well-established facts necessarily need explicit citations in every instance.
  • Addressing editing irregularities is indeed important for Wikipedia's reliability. However, it's crucial to distinguish between genuine errors and differences in perspectives that may arise from the evolving nature of historical and archaeological research.
Menuaibansarawak (talk) 01:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes, hereinafter called as "Simonson 2011", explicitly states They (Iban people) are believed to have migrated from the headwaters of the Kapuas River in the central highlands of Borneo and down into the coastal plains of present-day Sarawak in several distinct waves, the first of which took place 16 generations, approximately 400 years, ago.
Simonson 2011 did mentioned Niah Cave was inhabited 50.000 years ago, but it never said those are people are Iban people. And if we look up the source material of Simonson 2011 (which is Prehistoric Foragers and Farmers in South-east Asia: Renewed Investigations at Niah Cave, Sarawak), It never even mentioned anything about Iban people. Furthermore Simonson 2011 states current ISEA inhabitant, including borneo, is “Mongoloid” Austronesians who migrated into this region approximately 4,000 years ago, which suggest Iban people are coming from this group and further confirmed by genetic evidence. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:54, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While Simonson 2011 provides valuable insights into the genetic evidence related to the Iban people, it's crucial to note that the study primarily focuses on the Southeast Asian ancestry of the Iban. The mention of the headwaters of the Kapuas River and their migration 400 years ago doesn't necessarily contradict the broader context of the Iban's genetic roots in Southeast Asia. Additionally, while Niah Cave's inhabitance is acknowledged, the study doesn't explicitly link it to the Iban. Moreover, the reference to "Mongoloid" Austronesians migrating 4,000 years ago aligns with the understanding that the Iban people are part of this broader Austronesian group. Genetic evidence supporting this connection reinforces the notion that the Iban share a common ancestry with the broader Southeast Asian population. In essence, the genetic evidence highlighted in Simonson 2011 supports the Southeast Asian origin of the Iban, and the absence of explicit mention in earlier time periods or specific locations doesn't necessarily contradict their prevailing genetic ties to the region. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 02:59, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While Simpson 2011 does discuss the belief that the Iban people migrated from the headwaters of the Kapuas River in Indonesia, it's important to clarify that the study's genetic evidence doesn't definitively prove this origin. Genetic research can provide insights into relatedness and migration patterns, but it may not pinpoint specific locations with absolute certainty. DNA research, while valuable, often reveals broader genetic connections and population movements rather than pinpointing a singular origin. The claim that DNA research "proves" the Iban came specifically from Kapuas, Indonesia, might oversimplify the complexity of population dynamics and the limitations of genetic studies in identifying precise migration routes. In conclusion, while genetic evidence supports the Southeast Asian ancestry of the Iban people, asserting a specific origin from Kapuas, Indonesia, based solely on DNA research may not be as conclusive as suggested. The migratory patterns of populations are complex, and genetic data provides a broader context rather than definitive proof of a singular origin. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 03:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1. Contradictory Statement on Kapuas Migrations:
  • Menuaibansarawak mentioned that there was no source on Kapuas migrations, yet the article clearly stated that Ibans migrated from Kapuas, as per the quoted source Ckfasdf.
2. Quoting Article and Disapproving Researcher:
  • Menuaibansarawak statement pointed out an irony: quoting the article while simultaneously disapproving the researcher. The clarification on the purpose of quoting the article is needed to reconcile this apparent contradiction.
  • Moreover, it's crucial to recognize that adhering to Wikipedia's standard practice involves citing essential research to substantiate claims. This underscores the need for careful consideration when expressing disagreement with our own sources to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia's commitment to reliable information. Adhering to these principles ensures the continued trustworthiness of the information presented on the platform.
  • Considering this, it raises a question about the purpose of using the article when there is disagreement with the researcher's statement. Understanding the rationale behind utilizing the article in this context will contribute to maintaining transparency and consistency in the article.
3. Academic Views on Iban Migration
  • Native myths and legends, along with linguistic and material culture studies by Asmah Haji Omar (1981), Rahim Aman (1997), Chong Shin, and James T. Collins (2019), in conjunction with material culture studies conducted by M. Heppell (2020), further support the historical migration of Ibans from the Kapuas River.
  • Additionally, studies from Benedict Sandin, a Malaysian ethnologist, and historian of Iban origin, also reinforce the idea of Iban migration from the Kapuas River. determines that the period of Iban migrations from the Kapuas Hulu Range commenced from the 1750s.[1]
--Native99girl (talk) 04:38, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The mentioned source, Ckfasdf, appears to be unclear or incomplete, making it challenging to verify the claim about Ibans migrating from Kapuas. Without a reliable source, it's essential to question the accuracy of such statements and seek more substantial evidence to support the migration claim. Quoting an article while disapproving of the researcher's statement may indeed create confusion. Clarifying the specific reasons for quoting the article, despite disagreement with the researcher, is crucial for maintaining transparency and ensuring that information presented aligns with the principles of verifiability and reliable sourcing on platforms like Wikipedia. While citing native myths, linguistic studies, and material culture studies by various researchers, it's important to critically assess the reliability and objectivity of these sources. Academic views on Iban migration may vary, and a comprehensive analysis of diverse perspectives, including potential biases in the sources, should be considered for a well-rounded understanding of the historical migration of Ibans from the Kapuas River. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 04:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Purpose of Source Quoting on Wikipedia
1. Importantly, the perspective cited by Ckfasdf is derived from your own source, "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes." However, it's crucial to note that we have earlier incorporated various academic studies above, providing a comprehensive understanding that supports the assertion of Iban origins in the Kapuas Hulu region.
2. It is crucial to avoid making explicit accusations of incompleteness against researchers without providing supporting references.
3. Quoting sources on Wikipedia serves the primary purpose of providing a verifiable and credible basis for the information presented, aligning with Wikipedia's commitment to verifiability and reliable sourcing.
--Native99girl (talk) 05:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of source quoting on Wikipedia, as described in the provided statement, is generally accurate. However, it's important to note that the specific case mentioned, where Ckfasdf's perspective is derived from a source, "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian," should be critically evaluated. It's crucial to ensure that the quoted source is reliable and directly supports the information being presented. Moreover, the statement rightly emphasizes the need to avoid explicit accusations of incompleteness against researchers. While questioning research or presenting alternative viewpoints is acceptable, making unsupported accusations can be counterproductive. Quoting sources on Wikipedia indeed serves the primary purpose of providing verifiable and credible information. However, the credibility of the sources themselves, especially in the context of conflicting perspectives, should be carefully assessed to maintain the highest standards of accuracy and reliability. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 05:08, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim by Ckfasdf, referencing "Simonson 2011," that the Iban people migrated from the headwaters of the Kapuas River is not substantiated by the provided information. Simonson 2011 does not explicitly link the inhabitants of Niah Cave, mentioned as residing 50,000 years ago, to the Iban people. The source material for Simonson 2011, "Prehistoric Foragers and Farmers in South-east Asia: Renewed Investigations at Niah Cave, Sarawak," does not contain any mention of the Iban people. Additionally, Simonson 2011 categorizes the current inhabitants of the Insular Southeast Asia (ISEA) region, including Borneo, as "Mongoloid" Austronesians who migrated around 4,000 years ago. This suggests a broader ancestral group rather than specifically identifying the Iban people. Genetic evidence supports the notion that the Iban people are part of this Austronesian migration. In summary, the information presented does not provide clear support for the assertion that the Iban people originated from the Kapuas River, as the referenced sources do not explicitly make that connection. The claim that "the research said Iban was believed to have come from Kapuas" is not adequately supported by the provided information. While the source, "Simonson 2011," mentions the Iban people's migration, it does not explicitly state that they originated from the Kapuas River. The connection between the Iban people and the Kapuas River is not conclusively established in the referenced material. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 05:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting Your Own Source:
The perspective attributed to Ckfasdf originates from "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes," a source associated with your contributions. Specifically, the introduction states, "The Iban are believed to have migrated from the headwaters of the Kapuas River approximately 400 years ago."
Dual Sourcing in Discussion:
Ckfasdf referenced two sources in the discussion, and notably, the initial source "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes" quoted is the source your contribution in the article.
Other Academic Views on Iban Migration:
Native myths and legends, alongside linguistic and material culture studies by Asmah Haji Omar (1981), Rahim Aman (1997), Chong Shin, and James T. Collins (2019), in conjunction with material culture studies conducted by M. Heppell (2020), further support the historical migration of Ibans from the Kapuas River. Additionally, studies from Benedict Sandin, a Malaysian ethnologist, and historian of Iban origin, also reinforce the idea of Iban migration from the Kapuas River, determining that the period of Iban migrations from the Kapuas Hulu Range commenced from the 1750s.
--Native99girl (talk) 05:27, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the perspective attributed to Ckfasdf originates from "Ancestry of the Iban Is Predominantly Southeast Asian: Genetic Evidence from Autosomal, Mitochondrial, and Y Chromosomes," it's essential to recognize the potential bias when quoting a source associated with contributors. Verifying claims from multiple, independent sources helps ensure a more objective and comprehensive understanding.In the context of dual sourcing in the discussion, relying heavily on a source associated with your contributions may raise concerns about potential bias. Diversifying sources from different authors and institutions enhances the credibility of the information presented. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 05:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Addressing Accusations of Bias Against Academic Contributors:
Menuaibansarawak, while I appreciate the engagement in this discussion, it's important to clarify that accusations of bias against respected linguistic, historians and research contributors should be approached with care. The individuals mentioned, including Benedict Sandin, Asmah Haji Omar, Rahim Aman, Chong Shin, M. Heppell and James T. Collins, are reputable scholars with credible backgrounds, and some are Ibans and Sarawakians themselves.
Making unfounded claims of bias without concrete evidence can undermine the integrity of academic discussions. It's crucial to focus on the academic merit of the sources and engage in a respectful discourse that considers the expertise and regional knowledge of the contributors.
Let's maintain a constructive dialogue and address any concerns through a careful examination of academic evidence. Native99girl (talk) 05:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While acknowledging the importance of respectful discourse, it's essential to emphasize the need for a balanced evaluation of academic contributions. Recognizing the credibility and expertise of scholars like Benedict Sandin, Asmah Haji Omar, Rahim Aman, Chong Shin, M. Heppell, and James T. Collins is crucial. However, a constructive dialogue should also include an open examination of diverse perspectives to avoid potential biases.
Engaging in academic discussions requires a commitment to unbiased exploration of evidence and arguments. Rather than dismissing concerns outright, it's beneficial to encourage a thorough and transparent examination of the academic merit and potential biases in all sources, fostering a more robust understanding of the historical migration of Ibans from the Kapuas River. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 06:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Benedict Sandin on his book The Sea Dayaks of Borneo before white Rajah rule explains origin of Iban people and it's migration to Sarawak. It's actually quite interesting, you may want to read that book. And, it seems Iban people migrates to Sarawak during Brooke's rule. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:03, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's fascinating how historical perspectives can vary. Different sources may offer conflicting information, making it crucial to consider various viewpoints when exploring the history of a community or region. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the academic recommendation Ckfasdf, especially from the late Benedict Sandin, the highly respected historian and former curator of the Sarawak Museum. I intend to delve into the suggested book to gain a deeper understanding of Iban history. Thank you. Native99girl (talk) 06:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Iban as a koine language in Sarawak". 1 May 2023.

I would like to bring attention to a recent edit by the user @Menuaibansarawak, who removed three academic sources from the Wikipedia article on the Iban people. They replaced this information with a claim that the Iban originate from the Kapuas Hulu Range along the Sarawakian border. However, upon reviewing the provided reference (https://study.com/academy/lesson/iban-history-culture-religion-people.html), it states in the first paragraph that "the name Sea Dayak is erroneous, as they originate upriver from the sea, in Kalimantan." This suggests that the user’s edits may misrepresent the original source, which could impact the article's accuracy and reliability. It’s important to ensure that we maintain scholarly integrity in our citations.--Native99girl (talk) 07:10, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kalimantan referred as Borneo. Kalimantan is an Indonesian term for Borneo. Not specifically Indonesia, it can be Brunei, Malaysia or Indonesia. Unless the sources stated that it is the Indonesian Borneo or West Kalimantan or Indonesian Kalimantan. And as for Kapuas, it is not limited to West Kalimantan, Kapuas Mountain Range is located in Kapit, Sarawak. And for sure it is bordering the West Kalimantan. For better clarification, search on the Google Maps of Kapuas Mountain Range located in Kapit, Sarawak bordering the West Kalimantan. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And make sure to read the sources from beginning to the end. There is details about Iban origin when you scroll down. It is good to read something carefully for clarification. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 07:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your clarification, Menuaibansarawak. However, I’d like to emphasize that the article from Study.com makes a clear distinction between "Borneo" and "Kalimantan." In the first paragraph, it states, "They are found throughout Borneo, particularly in Sarawak," which explicitly refers to the entire island, not just the Indonesian part. The term "Kalimantan" specifically denotes Indonesian Borneo, and this distinction is crucial for the accuracy of our article.
Furthermore, the article mentions that the name "Sea Dayak" is erroneous because the Iban originate upriver from the sea, specifically in Kalimantan. This reinforces the idea that in this context, Kalimantan refers to the Indonesian region.
For additional context, reputable dictionaries like Collins, Dictionary.com, and Britannica confirm that in English usage, "Kalimantan" generally refers to the Indonesian part of Borneo. This distinction is vital for maintaining the scholarly integrity of our citations. In Bahasa Indonesia, "Kalimantan" refers to the entire island of Borneo, but in English, it specifically denotes the Indonesian region. Even the English Wikipedia confirms this distinction with separate articles for Borneo and Kalimantan, the latter focusing on Indonesian Borneo. You can find more information by clicking on the highlighted links to see the definitions in the English dictionaries and the Wikipedia articles.
Moreover, the sources you removed align with this understanding. They state that according to native myths and legends, the Iban historically came from the Kapuas River in Kalimantan (Indonesian Borneo) and gradually migrated to Sarawak due to tribal issues. This ancient Iban legend is supported by modern linguistic studies by Asmah Haji Omar (1981), Rahim Aman (1997), Chong Shin and James T. Collins (2019), and material cultures examined by M. Heppell (2020), all of which trace the Iban language and culture back to the upper Kapuas.
I believe it’s important to include these perspectives to ensure a comprehensive and accurate representation of the Iban people's origins.--Native99girl (talk) 22:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1. Borneo and Kalimantan: In this case, you're emphasizing that while "Kalimantan" in Bahasa Indonesia refers to the entire island of Borneo, in English, it generally refers specifically to the Indonesian portion of the island. You would argue that it's important not to conflate the two. Referring to the Iban's origins as being from "Kalimantan" without clarifying that this means Indonesian Borneo in this context can lead to confusion, especially in an English-language article. The correct term should be "Borneo," which encompasses 0both the Malaysian and Indonesian parts of the island. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 23:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2. Iban Origins: You would argue that, while there is evidence of the Iban's origins being tied to upriver areas in Indonesian Borneo (Kalimantan), over-emphasizing this without considering their significant presence in Sarawak and throughout Borneo could skew the representation. The migration patterns are complex, and it's crucial to present a balanced view that doesn't overly focus on their Indonesian origins at the expense of their historical and cultural ties to the broader Borneo region, including Sarawak. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 23:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3. Scholarly Integrity: In this case, you're suggesting that some sources, while credible, might not fully capture the nuanced history of the Iban people across Borneo. You're advocating for a more holistic approach that includes the Iban's presence throughout the island, not just from the Kalimantan region. By removing or adjusting some sources that overemphasize the Kalimantan origin narrative, you're aiming to provide a more balanced view. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 23:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have not previously encountered a misunderstanding of the terms Borneo and Kalimantan as being synonymous. To clarify, Borneo refers to the entire island, which is geographically shared by Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia, while Kalimantan specifically refers to the Indonesian portion of the island. To illustrate the importance of this distinction, consider the confusion that would arise if one were to state that "Sarawak is located in Kalimantan," which would be factually incorrect. I recommend reviewing authoritative English-language dictionaries and the corresponding Wikipedia articles on Borneo and Kalimantan to gain a clearer understanding of how these terms are used in English contexts.
I do not dispute the Iban people’s significant presence in Sarawak; however, it is essential to recognize that their origins in the upriver regions of Kalimantan are firmly supported by scholarly research, including sources that have been removed. There has been no undue emphasis on this issue, but rather the inclusion of factual information backed by credible academic sources. Prominent scholars, including the late Benedict Saidin, a well-regarded Sarawakian/Iban historian, and other sources, support the theory that the Iban originated in the Kapuas region of Kalimantan.
In order to resolve this matter effectively, I suggest we invite several experienced editors with expertise in the history and cultures, to review the sources in question and provide an objective evaluation. This approach would help ensure that the article is accurate, well-rounded, and reflective of scholarly consensus. Native99girl (talk) 06:09, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give any book written by Benedict Sandin? As for my research, he said Iban came from Middle East and migrate ru Sumatra. After few years, he postulated that Iban migrate to Borneo via Kapuas. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 06:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
During our conversation in January, @Ckfasdf provided a link to Benedict Sandin's book, but it appears that the link is no longer accessible at this time. Native99girl (talk) 06:52, 14 October 2024
@Native99girl:Yes, InternetArchive was down since few days ago. But you can still find the above mentioned book elsewhere such as here. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And in that book mentioned that Iban came from Middle East then migrate to Kapuas via Sumatra. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 07:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the help @Ckfasdf. On page 2 of the book, Saidin notes that the concept of the Middle East is more symbolic than literal. Native99girl (talk) 08:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And which part of the Benedict Sandin states that Iban came from Kapuas, Indonesia. Wasn't it written Iban came from Middle East the migrate to Kapuas? Menuaibansarawak (talk) 08:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your input. However, I encourage you to take another look at the book. On page 4, Saidin specifies that the Undup River and the Kumpang—both tributaries of the Batang Ai—were among the earliest areas settled by Ibans migrating from what is now Indonesian Borneo, likely due to their proximity to the lower Kapuas. Native99girl (talk) 08:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But they never said that Iban came from Kapuas right? Don't make your own theory or conclusion based you read. Menuaibansarawak (talk) 08:55, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to highlight the research conducted by Prof. Madya Dr. Chong Shin, a respected scholar, as presented in his work titled Iban as a Koine Language in Sarawak in page 104, which cites Benedict Sandin’s findings. Dr. Chong discusses how Sandin, using oral sources, has documented the migration of the Iban from the Kapuas watershed to Sarawak.
Furthermore, I have presented various books, dictionaries, and journals to support my points. I believe it would be beneficial to consider multiple perspectives on which version of the Iban migration should be highlighted. It seems we are going back and forth, where you present arguments and I provide facts. However, even in your sources, it is noted that the Iban originated from Kalimantan. Perhaps we should consider appointing a middleman or mediator to help us find the most academically accurate version of this topic. Native99girl (talk) 09:09, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, Benedict Sandin seems to omit the story of the Iban people's origin from the Middle East because he focuses on more recent, verifiable migration histories and their ties to specific locations in and around Sarawak. There are mentions that the idea of Middle Eastern origins is not entirely dismissed, but it is not emphasized in his narrative. Instead, Sandin seems to prefer tracing the Iban's ancestry through migrations closer to Southeast Asia and what is more supported by local traditions, artifacts, and oral histories.
One key point is that Sandin's approach, as discussed in the text, may aim to emphasize tangible historical events that are backed by archaeological evidence or oral traditions that have been passed down with consistency. This omission of the Middle Eastern origin story might be because it's considered less relevant or harder to validate within the framework of Sarawak's local history and cultural context.
Afterall, Sandin explicitly mentioned on page 4 that it is clear that the movements originating in the Kapuas were the most important, and they will be the major subject of this paper.
Ckfasdf (talk) 01:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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