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RfC: Representative Democracy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Is the phrase "Israel is a representative democracy..." present in the lead accurate and neutral? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Unless a superscript note is added (for example: representative democracy), I would vote No. I think a superscript note could explain the West Bank is not considered democratic and that the Israeli Government claims some of the West Bank as within its borders. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 21:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion

I understand the feeling of needing to caveat this, as the Palestinian people are generally under the military authority of Israel without participating in their political system, but I don't think that this feeling should be acted upon when it would conflict with presenting the facts from a neutral point of view. Details of the military occupation of the Palestinian territories are already made in the lead before this statement, and consequently I don't think any readers will be misled into thinking that the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank or Gaza Strip somehow participate in the Israeli electoral system. This is especially so when the lead explicitly states that Israeli laws have not been extended to these areas. The evident consensus among political scientists and others in fields pertaining to the classification of governmental systems deem Israel a representative democracy, and contrary viewpoints would be giving undue weight to fringe theories. Sabot Cat (talk) 04:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that the fact that Israel has a democracy (without symptoms of vote rigging within its closed system) should rightly be celebrated. However, the fact that Israel exerts militarily enforced influence over large populations that are not afforded the right to vote requires direct explanation. Israel's democracy is representative of the subsection of people within its controlled territories that it represents. If Israel wanted to be regarded as a representative democracy then it could withdraw influence from Palestinian territories. As it is the statement, at minimum, needs qualification. GregKaye 11:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with GregKaye that the "representative democracy" statement needs qualification. The Israel article contains a great deal of pro-Jewish/anti-Arab WP:TENDENTIOUS editing and needs work to move to a NPOV. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 12:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment I would like to point out WP:OR. Saying that "I don't think Israel is a democracy because of X", as in the two comments above, is by definition a moot argument at Wikipedia. What matters is whether good, respected sources say Israel is a democracy or not.Jeppiz (talk) 14:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment What matters is WP:NPOV and the development of neutral encyclopaedic content that fairly presents all sides of any particular story. Jeppiz, please do not polarise discussion and characterise editors as "saying" that Israel is not a democracy. My view is that the democratic elements of Israel's constitution should be celebrated but that the fact that Israel exerts militarily enforced influence over large populations that are not afforded the right to vote requires direct explanation. GregKaye 15:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not trying to polarize in any way, just to keep the discussion focused. This is not the place to expand on personal views, no matter what those personal views are. The question here is not whether Israel is a democracy or not, the question is whether the article should say it's a democracy or not. And that decision needs to be based on reliable sources, not on our personal opinions about Israel.

Jeppiz (talk) 15:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

to GregKaye. yours:"do not polarise discussion and characterise editors as "saying" that Israel is not a democracy". Editors who are pushing an agenda without a wp:rs quotes, are indeed "saying". This is not the proper way to write in Wikipedia. Ykantor (talk) 16:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

YkantorTo be clear, Jeppiz presented in his/her 14:36, 2 February 2015 edit above: "Saying that "I don't think Israel is a democracy because of X", as in the two comments above, ...". The two comments above this edit contained none of the content the Jeppiz claimed. You have misrepresented my content by I think selectively omitting my starting "please..". I was perfectly in my rights here to politely request "please do not polarise discussion and characterise editors as "saying" that Israel is not a democracy." Jeppiz misrepresented me in the 14:36, 2 Feb edit. You have misrepresented me now. Without requesting distraction from the purpose of the thread what exactly it is that you think was improper? GregKaye 19:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment There are sources for Israel being a representative democracy. Are there sources saying otherwise, and if so - are they prominent enough? “WarKosign” 15:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

comment More sources:

-Democracy index, 2012 ranking list, Israel is included in the category of "Flawed democracies" [1].

-Democracy Ranking, 2013 ranking, Israel's score included in the category "High'" [2] and also [3].

-Freedom House, (the relevant one), 2014 review, status is "Free" and political rights are categorized as "Best" [4].

any comments? Infantom (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment The article should say that Israel is a democracy because the form of the government of a country is one of the most vital parts of an article about a country. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 00:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment The article should note that the definition of Israel's borders throughout the Israel article is an ever changing line depending on which pro-Jewish/anti-Arab narrative the current paragraph is trying to sell. When discussing the capital, all of Jerusalem is part of Israel. When discussing discussing democracy, suddenly the borders change, and all the sources noting the West Bank is one of the least democratic places in the world are no longer "relevant". Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The western part is in Israel, the eastern is annexed. The difference is that Jerusalem is under Israeli jurisdiction and the west bank isn't. Don't you think there is a reason why Freedom House have two different reviews about "Israel" and the "occupied territories"? Infantom (talk) 19:55, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that it's quite clear that Gaza and the West Bank are not in Israel, since Israel never annexed them. Parts of these territories are controlled/occupied by Israel, parts are controlled by the PNA. Palestinians living on these territories can vote in Palestinian elections, while Israeli settlers cannot.

East Jerusalem and Golan heights were officially annexed by Israel which is disputed internationally. Residents of Golan heights are full citizens and can vote in Israeli elections. East Jerusalem residents are "permanent residents" with limited rights compared to full-blown citizens.

Do you disagree with this description ? Is there a place in this article where the borders are presented differently ? “WarKosign” 20:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

In the view of UN and every other international body outside Israel, the Dome of the Rock and everything east of it is part of the West Bank. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:15, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Does the article say otherwise anywhere ? “WarKosign” 16:25, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does. As I said before, when discussing the capital, all of Jerusalem is part of Israel (including the West Bank parts). When discussing discussing democracy, suddenly the borders change, and all the sources noting the West Bank is one of the least democratic places in the world are no longer "relevant". Is that not clear? Gouncbeatduke (talk) 17:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Lead: "Jerusalem is the country's most populous city and its designated capital, although Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is not recognized internationally"
• Israel#Further conflict and peace treaties: "The position of the majority of UN member states is reflected in numerous resolutions declaring that actions taken by Israel to settle its citizens in the West Bank, and impose its laws and administration on East Jerusalem, are illegal and have no validity".

If there are places where East Jerusalem is described as a part of Israel in WP voice without clarifying that it's only Israel's POV that is not accepted by most of the international community it should be fixed. Please point out such places.“WarKosign” 17:41, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Does anyone know why residents of Golan Heights were afforded full citizenship while residents of East Jerusalem were categorised as "permanent residents"? Again I think that it is great that Israel has a representative democracy but I think it important to note the limits or bounds of the representation of the democracy involved. GregKaye 08:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment Israel is not a democracy; Palestinians living in the West Bank, which is de facto under Israeli control, have no voting rights or right of return. Indeed, a plethora of sources describe it as an apartheid state or an ethnocracy. Care needs to be taken when using words like "democracy" to define Israel. It is the Zionist narrative, factually questionable, that Israel is this peace-loving liberal democracy. I, and, again, a multitude of sources, disagree with the contradictory notion that, firstly, you can define yourself as Jewish and democratic (it's as though Nazi Germany—were it not a dictatorship—could have been defined as "Aryan and Democratic"); and, secondly, that Israel can be considered a democracy whilst still maintaining the longest military occupation in modern times. JDiala (talk) 13:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Do you have sources that support this claim, or are you using original research as an argument ? Reductio ad Hitlerum is not a valid argument either.“WarKosign” 20:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

JDiala I do not see that the question extends to whether Israel is a "peace-loving liberal democracy" as recent history is full of examples of democracies that have declared war on other democracies. However I think it is notable that, when you do a search on ethnocracy, Israel is given substantial mention. WarKosign, you are also welcome to research this in our development of encyclopaedic content. I would also be interested to know whether Jewish residents in West Bank areas, such as in their expansive settlements, are afforded votes in neighbouring Israel while other residents of Palestinian territories are not. GregKaye 13:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Apparently Palestinian permanent residents of East Jerusalem can apply for Isreli citizenship at any time, but most of them choose not to. If this is correct, nothing prevents them from voting in Israel. “WarKosign” 19:20, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: Israeli citizens vote in Israeli elections, Palestinian citizens vote in Palestinian elections. The only arrangement out of the ordinary is that some ballot boxes are placed in settlements in the west bank, easing the voting for the settlers (they don't need to go far to vote). “WarKosign” 14:44, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign, People in Palestinian territories pay taxes to Palestinian authorities right? GregKaye 15:37, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: Palestinian citizens pay taxes to Palestinian authorities. When they are employed by Israeli settlers they earn much more therefore pay more taxes. Israeli citizens pay taxes to Israel. Israel normally collects the customs and VAT for the Palestinians and transfers it to the NPA after deducting cost of water and electricity Israel provides. See Taxation in the Palestinian territories for more details. “WarKosign” 17:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@WarKosign: astounding. It is a true example of Settler colonialism and its not that it can be said that the Palestinians are particularly happy about the situation. Even though Israel has achieved peaceful relations with countries such as Jordan and Egypt, individual Palestinians are prepared to act as suicide bombers for a mixture of these and religious reasons. GregKaye 18:56, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: There is a lot to criticize about settlement policy in the West Bank, but calling Israel "not a democracy" or "apartheid" is simply factually incorrect. “WarKosign” 19:28, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Could a superscript note address this? One that explained the West Bank is not considered democratic and that the Israeli Government claims some of the West Bank as within it borders? Gouncbeatduke (talk) 21:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign who are you addressing with regard to your "not a democracy" reference? I don't think that we can necessarily speak in Wikipedia's voice to describe an "apartheid" situation but the analogy has been notably and meaningfully applied by some very prominent people who can be well quoted. GregKaye 22:01, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: This analogy is notable enough to have a dedicated article, which achieves NPOV by listing both support and the objection to the analogy. My reference above was a bit of soapboxing triggered by your questions and comments. “WarKosign” 22:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I have moved everything above to "Threaded Discussion" where I think it belongs. If you disagree, please revert. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:52, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. “WarKosign” 17:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

so do I. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 21:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

-@JDiala: Yours:" a plethora of sources describe it as an apartheid state". If you wish to see why Israel is not an apartheid state , you may read Benjamin Pogrund articles and books. He was fighting Apartheid in South Africa during the bad times, and gained the respect and confidence of leaders such as Nelson Mandela:

-Is Israel an apartheid state? Answers from someone who’d know. In South Africa, Benjamin Pogrund was jailed for opposing the regime. Now, in Israel, he abhors the occupation but insists there’s no comparison]

-Israel has moved to the right, but it is not an apartheid state, by Benjamin Pogrund

-An Israeli and a Palestinian scathed by South Africa apartheid rhetoric, Despite their limited knowledge of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, South Africans have many prejudices that are being fueled by anti-Israel groups, By Benjamin Pogrund and Bassem Eid Ykantor (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@Ykantor: I stated that there are a plethora of sources describing it as an apartheid state. If you wish to go over these sources, which are again plentiful and easy to find, simply look at the Israel and the apartheid analogy article. Other South Africans, most notably Desmond Tutu, believe that the analogy is a legitimate one. I never stated that the analogy is not criticized. It certainly is. This simply means, however, that there is a dispute. Wikipedia, of course, should not take sides in such a dispute. Referring to Israel as a "representative democracy" seems to me to be clearly taking sides. JDiala (talk) 23:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a source that actually speaks about Israel not being a democracy ? Going from "Some critics said that Israel's hafrada is similar to apartheid" to "Israel is not a democracy" is a big leap that needs sources. “WarKosign” 04:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I don't think it is problematic to describe Israel as a representative democracy, but there should be an inline clarification along the lines: although most non-Jewish residents of East Jerusalem are not permitted to vote in national elections. Formerip (talk) 00:08, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, they are permitted. “WarKosign” 04:35, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, most are not permitted. Formerip (talk) 21:18, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Anyone who cares to apply for citizenship is permitted to vote. Unless the sources are wrong and a large number of people who apply are refused. “WarKosign” 21:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

But anyone who lives in East Jerusalem, is not Jewish and does not care to do so is not permitted to vote. This applies to the majority of non-Jews in East Jerusalem. Formerip (talk) 22:04, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, only people who care to vote can vote. Voting is a right, not an obligation. Does it work differently where you come from ? “WarKosign” 22:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, voting is normally considered a right but, in East Jerusalem, there are a large number of people, who are not immigrants, who do not have that right. It is not simply that they have the right but don't exercise it. I don't know of any other democracy in which anything similar happens, and it should be mentioned prominently and in close proximity to mentioning that Israel is a democracy. Formerip (talk) 23:02, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

They have the right (to apply for a citizenship and then vote) and many don't exercise it. They had the option to be granted full citizenship in 1967, and they still do. An Israeli citizen who didn't apply to receive an ID card upon reaching majority wouldn't be eligible to vote too.

We are foruming here when the real question is - do you have sources supporting your claim that "residents of East Jerusalem are not permitted to vote" ? It doesn't matter what either of us thinks, what matters is what the sources say. “WarKosign” 23:16, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

-@JDiala: According to Wiki rules, The proof / refutation of the Apartheid claim should be based on wp:rs and not notable figures like Desmond Toto. However, since we are expecting each other to be open minded, we can try to understand the issue by reading anti apartheid veterans articles, including the ex South African, Benjamin Pogrund who was jailed for opposing the regime. Now, in Israel, he abhors the occupation but insists there’s no comparison. Ykantor (talk) 07:47, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Desmond Tutu won the Nobel peace prize for his anti-Apartheid efforts, I think his view is at least as relevant as Pogrund's, and I'm being generous to Pogrund here. But here, too, we're not on a mission to discover whether Israel is or isn't an apartheid regime, we only need to describe the significant views on the subject. And relating to this particular discussion, the apartheid regime is often described as being in the West Bank rather than in Israel, although of course it's run by Israel in the West Bank. --Dailycare (talk) 21:24, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

For me a democratic problem relates to the imposition on Palestine by Israel of the rules regarding settlers. Settlers occupy great swathes to West Bank land and yet pay taxes to and vote in Israel. I can't imagine that the Palestinians are happy about the situation and I think that it goes to show just how non integrated the settlements actually are. GregKaye 17:25, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Greg, I would agree with you but I fear you're constantly missing the point. You seem to treat this as a WP:FORUM to vent your different opinions about issues related to Israel. That is not the purpose of Wikipedia, the only think we discuss at this talk page is how to improve the article. As for this RfC, again, the idea is not to discuss our personal views on whether Israel is a democracy or not, it's to establish what reliable sources have to say about the question.Jeppiz (talk) 17:32, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Considering Ethnic democracy was coined specifically to describe the form of democracy in Israel, I would think this would be the best description. 70.50.123.188 (talk) 23:35, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Jeppiz The RfC here relates to the raised question, "Is the phrase "Israel is a representative democracy..." present in the lead accurate and neutral?" How does my presentation above constitute WP:Forum

To get this in a possible context the lead of the topic Representational democracy cites the United Kingdom as being a form of representational democracy and yet the text "representative d", "representative g", "electoral d", "indirect d" or anything else that might direct to the representational democracy page is not found in the code of the United Kingdom page. A question that might be fairly raised in regard to the neutrality of the use of the presentation of "representational democracy" is whether people really understand what the phrase means. We are not merely stating that "Israel has had a democratically elected government since year X" but we are presenting "Israel is a ..." The question can be raised as to how representational Israel honestly is? I would like to ask a further question about settlements in case anyone knows the answer. If a "Jewish" child (biologically or not but mainly by the disposition of the parents) is born in a settlement in Palestinian territory, how automatic is citizenship. Also, as far as I know, people in the West Bank were not involved in any vote to decide whether East Jerusalem would be drawn into a different political arena.

70.50.123.188 I don't think that we can speak in Wikipedia's voice so as to describe Israel as an Ethnic democracy although it may be fair to quote Sammy Smooha's views/concussions at an appropriate point of the article. I think it is fairer to prominently say how Israel does fit in with democracy before saying how it doesn't.

"Electoral democracy" redirects to Representative Democracy and I think that this may be a terminology that may be more "representative" of the situation in Israel. Israel does have an electorate and elections and yet questions/objections can be raised in regard to how representative it is.

• "ethnic democracy" Israel gets "About 16,100 results" on Web

"ethnic democracy" Israel gets "About 2,830 results" in books

"ethnic democracy" Israel gets "About 1,760 results" in Scholar

• "representational democracy" Israel gets "About 20,600 results" on Web

"representational democracy" Israel gets "About 262 results" in books

"representational democracy" Israel gets "About 267 results" in Scholar

• "electoral democracy" Israel gets "About 114,000 results" on Web

"electoral democracy" Israel gets "About 1,460 results" in books

"electoral democracy" Israel gets "About 2,420 results" in Scholar

GregKaye 10:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2015

Under "Politics", electoral threshold is now 3.25% 212.235.77.210 (talk) 12:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- Sam ^Sing! 12:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Here is a good source.

Done

“WarKosign” 13:51, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Area

The article currently says 20,770 / 22,072 km2

I am editing to the former of the two numbers as per the figure at List of countries and dependencies by area and Geography of Israel.

GregKaye 21:58, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: This source gives the area as "8,630 sq. miles (22,145 sq.km.)".

The map appears to include the Golan Heights which can explain the difference in the area. “WarKosign” 22:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I would dispute, if a group like the Palestinian government gave a unilateral account of the area of a Jewish State as at (for instance) the extent drawn on partition plan maps, that this figure should not be presented as the area of Israel unless it was internationally accepted. In the same way, unless the Israeli government figures are internationally accepted, I don't think that we can present them in the standard infobox way. I think that any claims that are made can be make clearly in the text. GregKaye 22:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

There is a big difference, the UN partition map was never approved nor de-facto implemented, while Golan Heights are de-facto administered by Israel and it doesn't look like there will be any negotiations with Syria/ISIL anytime soon. Israel#Geography and climate has 3 area numbers: recognized, unrecognized, controlled (including West Bank and maybe Gaza).

I checked List of territorial disputes looking for examples. Russia gives the area without Crimea, with a caption "Crimea not included". Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is only recognized by Turkey, yet is considered to have an area. Cyprus list the territories including those controlled by Northern Cyprus. “WarKosign” 08:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign What I said was, "I would dispute, if a group like the Palestinian government gave a unilateral account of the area of a Jewish State as at (for instance) the extent drawn on partition plan maps". If that had happened then this would have a lot more international credibility than a border that is unilaterally claimed by Israel alone. GregKaye 11:29, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

The Russia article uses a an "|area_footnote" parameter in its usage of "infobox country". I have added the coding to the Israel article: "|area_label = Not including: Gaza, Golan Heights, West Bank/East Jerusalem" as I personally think that this works better due to the length of the text. GregKaye 12:08, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks ok to me. “WarKosign” 12:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

The new "Not included..." part doesn't really belong there, it's better to restore the previous "20,770 / 22,072" , but to also add a footnote that the latter includes the annexed areas. Yuvn86 (talk) 16:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Israeli girl

An Israeli girl in a park near Tel Aviv.

Israel's most famous girl (Bar Refaeli) in an Israeli TV commercial on Israel's Channel 2 for the largest Israeli food company {Strauss (company)} in a park near Tel Aviv. Stop editing it out and saying it's not from Israel. There is even an exclusive Hebrew article for this photo (he:הקרב על המילקי#הסרטון השלישי) on the Israeli Wikipedia. Dr. Feldinger (talk) 21:03, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Would it be in order to modify the caption to reflect who this girl is, with a wikilink to her article ?“WarKosign” 21:06, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The caption doesn't really add anything to the article as it keeps referring to her like she's a random little girl. Also, Bar Rafaeli is a grown-woman so even though she's an adorable munchkin in that photo, I'm not sure what all it actually adds to the article as it's just a close-up of her face and you can't see anything of the park. Also, everything User:Dr. Feldinger is all well and good, but someone would have to actually be familiar with the commercial and the park to get all that from the photo with that caption. Assume WP:NOCLUE here.... Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 19 Shevat 5775 21:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Just added an alt-caption with more details, even though the file name already says "Bar Refaeli_3.jpg" by itself. Dr. Feldinger (talk) 21:27, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Not everyone will click the file name and not everyone will read their address bar. As I said, it's also just a picture of her face and you can't tell where she is unless there's actually a description. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 19 Shevat 5775 21:34, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

What does the picture add to the reader's understanding about the State of Israel? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:30, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Malik Shabazz: What does the girl at State of Palestine#Demographics add ?

I do not see many other articles with such photos, though. Mexico#Demographics has several images showing diverse ethnic groups. “WarKosign” 21:35, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

What Israeli children look like, because that's the only picture of an Israeli child in the whole article even though they make over 30% of Israel's population. You also have pictures of children in the State of Palestine page, and I'm not suspicious why you (Malik Shabazz, an Arabic name) haven't deleted any of those and why it bothers you so much for the page of Israel. Dr. Feldinger (talk) 21:36, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

On the note about pictures of people, why are there only pictures of Ashkenazi Jews even though Sephardim, Mizrahim and Arabs are all a very significant portion of the population? Maybe a compilation of kids from all four groups in photos that are not close-ups? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 19 Shevat 5775 21:41, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, surely it should be possible to find such a picture. The relative absence of Sephardim who (in the broader sense) is the largest group in Israel is rather conspicuous.Jeppiz (talk) 21:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Is this girl somehow "typical" of "what Israeli children look like", or of some demographic within Israel? If not I cannot see what the point of her picture being here is. Paul B (talk) 21:45, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Is there girl at State of Palestine#Demographics typical ?

Here is an image of a playground in Tel Aviv area I took a few months ago. I can crop to see more of the kids and less of the playground as well. “WarKosign” 21:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Possibly rather more so, but justifying one utterly irrelevant image by referring to another one is absurd. This child could be from anywhere. Nothing in it tells us anything about "israeli" children. It's just silly. And I guess it's part of some childish tit-for-tat editing nonsense that disfigures articles in this area. Paul B (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

According to Bar Refaeli's Wikipedia page, Refaeli has a grandparent from Italy, thus Sephardic as well as Ashkenazi. She also said that in an interview for Israel's Channel 10 (Guy Pines). She represents the majority of Israeli children, the Jewish ones which are more likely to see in Israel (83%). I support this picture for the sake of showing a girl, instead of a boy. Dr. Feldinger (talk) 21:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

A professional model she says she represents "the majority of Israeli children"? How nonsensical is that? Paul B (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)A grandparent from Italy does not automatically make her sphardit. There are also many ashkenazim in Italy (seems to be a North-South thing like most things in Italy). Is the 83% the percentage of Jews or the percentage of Jewish children one is likely to see? I don't really get what you're saying, I'm afraid. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 19 Shevat 5775 21:59, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Paul Barlow, So you are the one to decide how Israelis look like? That's racist. As an Israeli of both Ashkenazi and Sephardic heritage i can say she has an All-Israeli look for a child. She is Israeli-born and both her parents are also Israeli-born, according to her Wikipedia page (Bar Refaeli). Dr. Feldinger (talk) 21:55, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Objecting to the inclusion of an utterly useless and irrelevant image is not "racist". You are the one who want a blue-eyed blonde to represent the people of Israel. I haven't promoted any race. Paul B (talk) 22:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

That's original research, I'm afraid. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 19 Shevat 5775 22:02, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Flinders Petrie, as a Super-Jew who even uses the Hebrew calender (which most Israeli don't) for his timestamps you should tell us if she looks like a kid from your family. Dr. Feldinger (talk) 22:09, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Afraid I'm only half-Jewish and so my opinion wouldn't mean much and would still be original research anyway. The Hebrew calendar's from when I was religious. I am now agnostic (which would put me in the same category as most Israelis were I not, in fact, American). Sorry, mate. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 19 Shevat 5775 22:16, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

So are you an American or Israeli? You have confused me, brother. Dr. Feldinger (talk) 22:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

American, though I don't quite see how this relates to our current discussion or improvement of the article. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 19 Shevat 5775 22:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

For some reason, I can't see this discussion on the Talk page because of PaulB's edits. It's only viewable through Source Edit. Paul B (talk) 22:34, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

It's solved now. It's because I was removing the ref tags. It also creates edit conflicts leading to weird anomalies like the above edit by Dr. Feldinger being apparently written by me. Paul B (talk) 22:36, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Warko, your park photo is low-res, and even if you crop it in order to enlarge it, it still would be blurry. If you can take a picture of another kid who represents the vast majority of children in Israel: A secular Jewish girl of both Ashkenazi and Sephardic heritage (just like Bar Refaeli in my picture). Well, in that case- be my guest. Dr. Feldinger (talk) 22:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

When I first saw this image in the article I thought it was someone's joke, since it was obvious from the face and the file name that it was a young Bar Rafaeli but the caption just said "girl". It's amazing that some people think it enhances the article. As a mere "girl" it means nothing, and the "park" she is supposedly in is not visible, so the contribution to the article is exactly zero. It's also terribly composed (oh that shoulder). Basically, it looks silly and is silly. Since Bar Rafaeli is now a well-known Israeli, it would actually be fine to feature an adult Bar Rafaeli with a caption like "Israeli model Bar Rafaeli". Alternatively, show us an actual Israeli park with children playing; at least it would mean something. Zero^talk 23:39, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Request Could someone maybe hat all this? I was hoping we could talk about diversifying the article photos. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 20 Shevat 5775 00:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

[Offensive text removed by Zero0000]

here is record of the removal/removed text which, while conveying opinion that I don't necessarily agree with, doesn't, to my judgement, seem to be offensive. GregKaye 11:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I restored the above statement. Per WP:TPO "Cautiously editing or removing another editor's comments is sometimes allowed, but normally you should stop if there is any objection". Why does anyone object to the user stating their (possibly incorrect/biased/offensive) opinion ? “WarKosign” 07:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

If you are going to cite a Wikipedia guideline, you should read it first. "Some examples of appropriately editing others' comments: ... Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks". Calling other editors sexists and antisemites is not only a personal attack but a blockable offence. Zero^talk 08:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

For it to be a personal attack, it has to attack a specific person. This talk page contains the term "anti-arab" 14 times, yet you find a single mention of antisemitism offensive ? “WarKosign” 08:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It's directed at every editor who disagrees with him. Everyone who does not want this joke of an image is either a sexist or an antisemite. Paul B (talk) 10:37, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I totally agree with Paul B that this isolated image is pointless. An image such as this may have relevance in an article such as Girl or Child but what is it doing as an isolated image in a content on the Demographics of Israel? Paul B also asked the relevant question: Is this girl somehow "typical" of "what Israeli children look like", or of some demographic within Israel? In my experience. An image search (for what that's worth) on "Israeli girl" OR "Israeli girls" OR "Israeli woman" shows, if anything, a prevalence of dark hair and eyes which seems to reflect my own experience. However the shots are largely either of girls and women wearing either army fatigues or bikinis if that which wasn't so much my experience.

I do not consider the picture of the single child as being representative of the demographics of Israel any more than I consider Bar Refaeli to be representative of the cross section of Israeli population but this is in no means meant as a comment not to acknowledge the many "attractive"/"beautiful" people in the country. However, if a question were posted to ask "where is this girl from?" I doubt that there would be any special connection to Israel. The picture adds nothing. GregKaye 11:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps you are right, but shouldn't the same logic be applied to the girl at State of Palestine#Demographics ? Paul Barlow is correct, it is childish tit-for-tat, yet the editors concentrate on removing this image and not the other. “WarKosign” 12:17, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign good call. I have removed the girl fluff image from the SoPal. article. GregKaye 12:24, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

In connection to this topic it may be possible to add content somewhere in regard to Israeli tastes. One Haaretz article asked Why are Israel's top models blonde and European looking? with content in the article that then presented the question: "Where did all the brunettes go, and how is it that “Israeli beauty” is exemplified only by the blue-eyed, blonde model Bar Refaeli?" GregKaye 12:24, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment I don't find an up-close image of a child relevant to Israel, and I doubt others do, unless they are trying to promote some sort of POV. Ariel ^✡ 20:01, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe that both of the offending munchkins have been removed from their respective pages. I think both pages should have compilation images to show how diverse Israelis and Palestinians are in terms of appearance. (I've mistaken a Palestinian girl for an Ashkenazit on more than one occasion.) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 20 Shevat 5775 20:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Similar compilations of photos of notable although perhaps not representative Israelis, Israeli Jews, Jews and Palestinian people in the infoboxes of the articles: Israelis, Israeli Jews, Jews and Palestinian people. What I find totally irrelevant is the use of cutesy or facebook type images to in political articles. Not saying that this is done intentionally but I don't think that peoples non sexual paedophilia etc. should be exploited in these ways IMO. This is not a dig at the Bar Refaeli image which I consider to be a mild example of this phenomena. I have recently attempted to raise issue on this at Talk:Israel Defense Forces#This isn't Facebook and, elsewhere, have removed an image of a cute apparently Palestinian girl waving a Palestinian flag here. There is already a general correlation between successful/notable people and good looks in general and I think that the Groups of people articles mentioned may fill a lot of the need mentioned. GregKaye 11:09, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I kind of get the thing about looks and success. I've been on both sides and for a long time was ignored as a result of not being considered attractive. Nowadays, well, polar opposite and we'll leave it at that. You're right that the cutesy images don't add much of anything and in some cases were likely chosen simply because they look pretty or support a political view. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 04:56, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Benjamin Netanyahu and Shimon Peres at the celebration of Independence Day in 2012

What about this picture? It features Israelis of all ages, sexes and appearances, has two of the most prominent leaders in Israeli history (none of whom pictured in the article), and it's taking place on Israeli Independence Day. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 23:03, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

An excellent find, Triggerhippie4! It's relevant and informative for the multiple reasons you said, and it highlights the important martial aspect of Israeli society in a neutral way. I think it's a very good picture add and a step towards diversifying the article.Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 04:56, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

If I may jump in, that looks like an okay picture to me. Probably necessary to say which figures is which, but still not too bad for a picture. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 04:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

PointsofNoReturn, you may do no such thing without express written consent from no less than three admins filled out in triplicate, and the personal acquiescence of the High Hamster (Oger haGadol) of Wikipedia himself. Them's the rules I just made up lacking any authority whatsoever.Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 04:56, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

What is the point of the use of the proposed picture? GregKaye 19:25, 13 February 2015 (UTC)