Talk:Ivan Šarić

Requested move 6 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Merge can be discussed outside or the RM or done per WP:BRD at editorial discretion. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 16:34, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ivan Šarić → Ivan Saric – English Wikipedia fonts cannot distinguish between Ivan Saric and Ivan Šarić, thus having two separate disambiguation pages — one for each form — is counterintuitive. All variations of this name should be listed within a single dab page. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 00:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're not really proposing a page move here, but rather a merge.--Srleffler (talk) 01:59, 8 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I added link to Ivan Sarić to this page under see also, so I think Ivan Saric could safely be redirected here. I'm opposed to move, because none of the people listed is really called "Ivan Saric" No such user (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@Roman Spinner:, what fonts are these that can't distinguish these two? Surely there are no fonts that hide a diacritic, esp. one as large as a caron? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 21:10, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Joy: As a more-detailed explanation, the point I was trying to make is that the sole name I am able to type on my 26-letter English-language keyboard (without resorting to special keyboard functions) is Ivan Saric. Thus, it is unhelpful to users of English Wikipedia to have separate disambiguation pages which use (in their main title headers) letters which, as far as the English-language alphabet is concerned, are the same. Although commingling of differently-spelled surnames is not recommended for names which use English-language fonts, the alternative here would be to use an example from one of the dab pages which combine slightly different names (Brown and Browne or Green and Greene) and combine all forms of Ivan Saric under one dab page header. Another example of such a combination is the Phil Reid dab page which combines Phil, Philip and Phillip Reid, Read and Reed. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:38, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Typing in search queries is hardly the only way for users to find things on Wikipedia - it's a pretty common use case that people will find terms unknown to them and then simply copy&paste them into a search form. I don't quite agree with the premise that these letters are entirely the same - the diacritical marks can give them different meaning, even for people who can't discern that meaning offhand. If it was an English word, the marks would indicate something relatively trivial, but since it is not an English word (that much should be apparent to native speakers), it's not clear to the readers whether it's trivial or not.

I'm not convinced Phil Reid is necessarily a properly formed disambiguation page, because it's unclear that all those names are truly interchangeable or that each of those persons is indeed identifiable using all those forms. It sounds like disambiguation was used there more as a typo aid rather than to address true ambiguity. It's even moot that every single name and surname there is a variant of specifically "Phil" and "Reid", as we have separate articles on all of those surnames, and "Phil" is actually a redirect.

In any event, the same logic doesn't necessarily apply here - we don't have any reference for the claim that Šarić and Sarić are actually variants of the same surname. Without evidence to the contrary, just based on the knowledge of that language and the basics of Slavonic surname formation patterns I would assume that they have different roots -- "Sara" (the Biblical name) and "šara" (lit. pattern, mottle). --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:25, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I indicated in my previous comment, "commingling of differently-spelled surnames is not recommended for names which use English-language fonts" and submitted examples of such commingling as Green/Greene, Brown/Browne or Reed/Read/Reid as evidence that its various forms still nevertheless exist. However, even though we have such examples of surnames which have different spellings but same pronunciations, those are not analogous to this case since, as far as English Wikipedia is concerned, all of the "Saric" name variations are spelled S-A-R-I-C since these all contain the same letters of the English alphabet. It is therefore counterintuitive to have separate disambiguation pages for variations which use letters corresponding only to those same five letters of the English alphabet.

If you feel that I am incorrect in this reasoning, we can solicit views from other Wikipedians by submitting one of the two dab pages for deletion at WP:AfD. I am leaning towards deletion of the Ivan Saric dab page since all of those listed on both dab pages use diacritics. Ivan Saric would thus become a redirect to the dab page with diacritics. If you would, however, prefer the deletion of the page with diacritics in its main title header and redirecting that header to Ivan Saric, that would be also acceptable. I will wait 24 hours before appending the AfD banner. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 01:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

as far as English Wikipedia is concerned - sorry but -- citation needed -- where did you find this rule that titles of articles on the English Wikipedia are meant to have only letters of the English alphabet? Did you somehow miss the countless articles using foreign letters such as Ångström, Peña, Eyjafjallajökull, ...? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]