Talk:Judeo-Marathi

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Article dev.

Ok, can anyone else contribute to this article? I've already contributed the sum total of my knowledge on this subject. Gringo300 13:06, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'll contribute a bit. More when time permits. Tomer ^TALK 07:49, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

I've done some research on Indian languages in general (in this case I mean Indian as in India, of course, but i've also done some research on American Indian languages).

I really don't know enough about "standard" Marathi to know how different Judeo-Marathi is from it.

One of my life goals is to learn to speak, read, and write as many languages as possible.

Let's just say I'm not a big fan of the English-only movement... well, actually, it's more like I despise it with every fiber of my being.

Gringo300 03:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A good number of translations from Hebrew were copied (in manuscript) printed in Marathi particularly in Pune, in the latter half of the 19th century. These include famous translations of the Passover Haggadah. There are two bibliographies on Jewish printers in India (which include the Jewish [Judeo-?] Marathi works):

Yaari, Abraham, 1899-1966. Ha-Defus ha-`Ivri be-artsot ha-mizrah. Yerushala[y]im, ha-Hevrah le-Hotsa'at sefarim `al yad ha-Universitah ha-`Ivrit, 697-700 [1936-40].

Astren, Fred. The Jewish printed book in India : imprints of the Blumenthal Rare Book and Manuscript Library. Berkeley, Calif. : Judah L. Magnes Museum, 1992.

However, the lists of imprints are still not complete.

Finally, if it is possible to distinguish/classify a Judeo-Marathi from other Marathi varieties, then it needs to be added to the "Jewish Languages" right column under "Other Indo-European".

jerchower

Hoax...

Well i've lived at Alibag, India the town that had been historically populated by Bene Israelis, even today there are many Bene Israelis living in and around the town, i dont think their Marathi is any different from the dialect spoken by the local non-jewish populance. 50-60 Hebrew additions hardly constitutes a separate language. File:England flag large.png अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 00:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like I'm going to have to do some more research on the Marathi language. Gringo300 09:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my knowledge, the description “a form of Marathi” is the most precise one. It is indeed not a separate language, but deserves an article as a particular type of Marathi. -- Olve 21:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With the minor change into “... a form of Marathi ...”, the issue of possible hoax should be dealt with. I propose that someone remove the {{hoax}} tag now. -- Olve 21:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not a Hoax

Just go to the Ethnologue: http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=MRT for the Marathi entry! Imperial78

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Redirect discussion

The article was redirected to Marathi in April after a proposal was made by @Saimdusan. I've undone the revision and decided to contest it here.

The current convention among scholars of Jewish language varieties is to use the term "Judeo-X" to describe a language variety. "Judeo-X" terms are not used to describe linguistically distinct languages or dialects, but rather a sociolinguistic designation to describe and compare the ways Jewish communities adopt and use local languages (see Benjamin and Benor, 2019, page 3). This convention is used by scholars who study Jewish language varieties and by other pages on Wikipedia (see List of Jewish diaspora languages). While the page is in need of work (something I'm happy to contribute to) it certainly does not merit deletion. So, I oppose any deletion or redirect. _{too_much}curiosity (talk) 07:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct in saying that Judaeo-x is a term with currency in the literature and is used to refer to language varieties that show varying levels of distance from related non-Jewish speech forms (so yes, how different the sociolect or dialect in question is from equivalent non-Jewish speech varieties is irrelevant to the validity of the term).

However, my contention in proposing the article for deletion was not that Jewish sociolectal variation does not merit coverage on Wikipedia or that the term Judaeo-Marathi would be invalid if such a sociolect only presented minor variation from the speech of Marathi-speaking Hindus.

Rather, the issue is whether this particular variety is actually attested or described in any pertinent literature.

The only two sources given by the article as it stands are 1) an entry for a manuscript in a library catalogue and 2) a defunct journalistic text that does not discuss anything about the alleged language variety at all. Not only are these texts not valid sources for the claims being made on the face of it (a library catalogue entry and a news story on MSN are hardly linguistics literature), but they also do not contain many of the claims made in the article (such as "Judeo-Marathi is written in the Devanagari script" or "it is characterized by a number of loanwords from Hebrew and Aramaic").

The only valid source on the usage of Marathi-speaking Jews I have found is the following, which would indicate that this variety is at best unattested, if it indeed ever existed at all.

"There is no evidence that the Marathi used by Jews was any different from that of their non-Jewish neighbors."

Rubin, AD, Kahn, L. 2020, Jewish Languages from A to Z, Taylor & Francis.

As it stands, the article is a case of original research and does not relay anything found in valid sources. You are welcome to try to dig up sources that could attest to this language variety actually existing, but given that we have been waiting for 3 years and I have also come up empty-handed, I am not convinced that anything will surface.

I believe the best course of action is to delete the article entirely so that we are not spreading misinformation. saɪm duʃan Talk|Contribs 08:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to clarify that while I do have certain personal misgivings about the Judaeo-x terminology for unrelated language varieties that show disparate levels of distinctiveness from related gentile speech forms, it does exist in the literature and it is not my place (and certainly not within the context of Wikipedia) to change it. Rather, my argument here is based on whether this particular article accurately reflects its sources, or whether there are any sources at all on the language use of Marathi-speaking Jews that would indicate any differences from other religious groups, not whether the terminology would hypothetically be valid (as it would be) if this sociolect actually existed. saɪm duʃan Talk|Contribs 10:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying! I think you correctly identified a gap: Judeo-Marathi is not directly described in any secondary literature. That being said, Judeo-Marathi is referenced by several sources (such as Hary and Bunin Benor and Rubin and Kahn) and, as you mentioned, there is a manuscript in the British library containing Judeo-Marathi written in Hebrew script. Even Ruben, the author of the source you cite, uses the term "Judeo-Marathi" a number of times ([1], [2]).

The article needs to be cleaned up, but I think it should remain given the references to Judeo-Marathi in other texts. The current article is certainly misleading, but I wouldn't consider the inclusion of an article called "Judeo-Marathi" to be disinformation if it correctly represents the current literature. I will clean it up now. Let me know what you think after I clean it up. _{too_much}curiosity (talk) 01:30, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]