Talk:Karamanli dynasty

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do merge an article about an individual with an article about a dynasty. Hmains 03:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced/misattributed additions

Las davas, you have been adding unsourced content or personal research (see WP:OR) without sources or by improperly attributing it to sources that don't support your additions.

• In these edits, the cited source says nothing about any of this information. Chad isn't even mentioned.
• In this addition, which contains some incomprehensible bits ("four polycare") and an unsourced quote, the citation is to a link, not to a book, and doesn't contain sufficient bibliographical information or a page number that would allow verification.
• And these latest edits ([1]) added more unsourced statements.

As I explained to you at Talk:Banu Khazrun, where you did similar things, these edits do not conform with Wikipedia's core policies. Please make sure that any content is supported clearly and specifically by reliable sources, without adding any of your own personal views or commentary. For formatting or grammar difficulties, other editors can help, but the information itself must be clearly verifiable to begin with. R Prazeres (talk) 17:29, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres .....really ? I have sourced a article explaining the Karamanli hmmmm wait uh I think I mentioned it in the colonial empire I will get it Las davas (talk) 17:31, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres ok give me a minute to get my source Las davas (talk) 17:35, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres ok give me a minute to get my source

https://sebhau.edu.ly/journal/index.php/johs/article/download/1505/691 Las davas (talk) 17:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres https://ketabpedia.com/%D8%AA%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%8A%D9%84/%D8%B7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%84%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%BA%D8%B1%D8%A8-%D8%AA%D8%AD%D8%AA-%D8%AD%D9%83%D9%85-%D8%A3%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%84%D9%8A/ Las davas (talk) 17:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

What are these links supposed to support? If your answer to each issue is to keep posting new links, without details, to things you didn't cite in the first place, I'm not going to spend all my time searching through all of them, when I've already searched through the ones you cited before and found nothing.

As it happens, there are accessible scholarly English sources that discuss a military expedition to Chad, but I see no indication so far that northern Chad was "conquered". E.g. Loimeier 2013, p. 70 ([2]), mentions the expeditions and its successes, but not a conquest, even saying: "It thus seems as if the Qaramanli endeavor to cross the Sahara was chiefly motivated by the profits of the slave trade and not by a plan to conquer and administer territories in the south." Unless there is ample evidence that reliable sources say otherwise, we should not be exaggerating the military successes. Please remember that all articles must also be written with a neutral point of view R Prazeres (talk) 17:53, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres first of all the first link explain that after they conquest fezzan they established rule north Chad by and the mentioned also bordering burno which at the time was still a big Empire and later it mentioned settlement of the tribes

secondly the second source is link to a book written by European writer in 1922 which mentioned close narrative to the first one and also describe the French campaign on tripoli in 1728-1729 and this book is source for alot and one of the most important book in libyan history Las davas (talk) 18:36, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres secondly the fact that you rely on English source isn't right you can translate it into a English by simple translation app on your device secondly I. the French campaign I. cited the same book and provided the picture of the drawing but I can give more sources Las davas (talk) 18:40, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres and I will revert in two days Las davas (talk) 19:01, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Do not "revert" anything unless a consensus as been established supporting your changes, as explained by WP:BRD, the regular Wikipedia practice. I invite other experienced editors to comment on the issue, if they like. R Prazeres (talk) 19:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres okay get them I am free . Las davas (talk) 21:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres okay I found something and it is important.

read this Commandeering Empires: Egypt, Tripoli, and Tunis in the Age of Commandeering Empires: Egypt, Tripoli, and Tunis in the Age of Revolution, 1774-1835 Revolution, 1774-1835 Jamalie7 (talk) 18:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Jamalie7, even though you did not provide proper details, I still checked two of the sources you cited for the quotes you wrote here, even just for some of the words in those quotes, and they don't appear there. If you want to provide direct, properly transcribed quotes with specific page numbers, you can do so here. So far, just like Las Davas above, it looks like you claim some sources support your addition when they apparently do not. Do not repeat your edits again unless you have obtained consensus here, something you should already know by now.

Let me also ask you directly: are you connected in any way to Las davas? R Prazeres (talk) 22:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres okay I am gonna give quotes Jamalie7 (talk) 22:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Can you also answer my last question? R Prazeres (talk) 22:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres okay the second sources have alot of quotes so be sure to read okay ? The Sultan of Bornu Muhammad al-Kanimi over the Baqirmis 71 fulfilled his request immediately, and al-Kanmi knew that the spoils of this campaign would make the Pasha not hesitate to fulfill this request, especially since this joint cooperation would increase the strength of the political and economic relations between the two countries 72 and given the need of each of the two parties to the other, whether In terms of economic interests and military assistance that attracted the Pasha, or in terms of military assistance against the enemies that were of interest to Al-Kanemi, Youssef Pasha Al-Qaramanli conducted several military campaigns to Borno at the request of Muhammad Al-Kanemi, which had a role in the emergence of Borno as a political force to be reckoned with among Entire Trans-Saharan Countries 3 7 Yusuf Pasha's first campaign moved towards Brno on May 21, 1817 AD, taking the Tripoli road. Fezzan. Borno, under the leadership of Bey Fezzan Muhammad al-Makni. Abdul Jalil Saif al-Nasr and some residents of the Libyan interior, such as Sokna, participated in this campaign, from which large numbers were launched at the request of Muhammad al-Makni, the most prominent of whom was Muhammad al-Ghazali al-Sukni, who was martyred there in Borno. This campaign penetrated into Kanem, and reached the northern parts of Bagirmi, and was able to enter its capital, Masania 74. Once the first campaign returned to the Eyalet of Tripoli, Yusuf Pasha Muhammad al-Makni again commissioned a second campaign to the same destination, in which he managed this time to enter Kanem and score a great victory. Against the enemies, in association with the armies of Sheikh Muhammad al-Kanimi, who in turn carried him the spoils and gifts to Yusuf Pasha, returning them to the Eyalet of Tripoli on 1820 AD 75. One of the most famous and well-known campaigns was the campaign of the year 1821 AD that Yusuf Pasha directed there at the request of Muhammad al-Kanimi, due to his retreat in front of The Bagramian armies under the command of the new Bey of Fezzan, Mustafa Jamalie7 (talk) 22:45, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres who the guy above he is a tiktoker that is what I know the libyans did one big Libya discord so I know him from there but never really got along he kinda disrespectful sometimes Jamalie7 (talk) 22:47, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres here the one from jstr At approximately the same time the regions to the north began to exercise greater influence over the Toubous and the Aouzou Strip area. From about 1815 onward the growth of the power of the European trading states in the Mediterranean forced the Karamanlis to turn to the south. The Karamanlis' power then reached no further south than Ghadamis, but military raids began against Kanem in 1818. Jamalie7 (talk) 22:42, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres The Eyalet of Tripoli in Sokoto84 was not at the level and strength of its relations with Borno, due to the different political situations prevailing in both Bornu and Sokoto, although they took one character, which is the declaration of the Islamic Jihad and Reform Movement, just as Borno's position in the countries beyond the desert was closer to Tripoli than Sokoto And safer roads and socially closer from Sokoto to the Eyalet of Tripoli due to the settlement of large groups of Arabs from Tripoli since the sixteenth century AD Jamalie7 (talk) 22:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres The likes of Bani Khuzam and Awlad Hamid, as well as the Awlad Suleiman and Al-Hasawneh tribes during the nineteenth century, in addition to the cultural proximity of Bornu to the Eyalet of Tripoli by Sheikh Muhammad Al-Kanmi, who received his first education in Tripoli and the teacher had a prominent role in supporting these relations with Yusuf Pasha, who sought help them against his enemies, who in turn informed the Pasha of this appeal, as we talked about previously 85 and despite Jamalie7 (talk) 22:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

You're going to need to be clearer: which quote is from which source exactly? Because according to your edit, the JSTOR source is this one (The Awlad Sulayman of Libya and Chad: Power and Adaptation in the Sahara and Sahel), but the first quote you provided supposedly from it (this) is not in that article. And then where are all these other quotes from? Even so, none of them so far support any claim of a conquest, which just reaffirms the point I made to Las Davas above about WP:OR: simply winning some battles, or "exercising influence", does not mean any territory was "conquered", and this cannot be used to make that claim on Wikipedia. R Prazeres (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres clear the first reply is from that source and influence usually mean vesselistion and the other quotes are from the source are from Political relations of the Karamanli family with Fezzan and the sub-Saharan regions during the reign of Yusuf Pasha 1795 – 1832 which is quite alot but that basically like one third of what the book said Jamalie7 (talk) 23:07, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I have the article and have searched it repeatedly, that quote is not there. So there's that. The second source is in Arabic. In any case, my last comment above still applies: no evidence of a conquest even if we take all these quotes at face value. On top of that, I've already quoted another reliable source above that specifically says it wasn't a conquest. If such a thing had actually happened, it would not be so difficult to find clear and explicit mention of it in reliable sources. As far as I am concerned, this issue is settled, so don't try to re-add this to the article again. R Prazeres (talk) 23:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres okay so we have to find one in English? Jamalie7 (talk) 23:45, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres okay found an article it's called the aouzou strip: a Legal Historical Analysis and it said this

access to the Sudanic regions south of the desert, and imposed a "modest" tribute on Fazzan. His aim, however, seems to have been largely to strengthen Tripoli's share of the trans-Saharan trade, 77 of which the principal element was the slave trade. 1 7 8 At approximately the same time the regions to the north began to exercise greater influence over the Toubous and the Aouzou Strip area. From about 1815 onward the growth of the power of the European trading states in the Mediterranean forced the Karamanlis to turn to the south. The Karamanlis' power then reached no further south than Ghadamis, 79 but military raids began against Kanem in 1818."0 The Toubous, who had long occupied Kufrah and Fazzan, began migrating south as a result of invasions from the north. Beginning in the eighteenth century, the Zawiyah (or Zowaya) Arabs from the Tripolitanian coast had driven the Toubous from all but the southernmost oases of Fazzan. In 1813, Yusuf Paa Karamanli, the governor of Tripoli, sent an expedition under Muhammad al-Mukni to subject Fazzan to Ottoman rule and govern it. Al-Mukni succeeded in establishing Ottoman rule and even conducted slave raids into Kanem. Jamalie7 (talk) 02:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres i also found an article but I still reading it it says this Karainanli in Tripoli, and they inoved south into the borderlands r e g i ~ n ~ ~ . The Libyan merchants to be found in substantial numbers in Faya (Borkou) and in the "Fezzanese" quarte1 of Abéché came from Fezzan and Cyrenaica ai the tirne the Senoussi Order rnoved its principal centre south into the area and estehlished zawiviis in the borderlands regions. Jamalie7 (talk) 18:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres also it says this The Toubou are amonç the last remnants of the tliree original Saharan populations (the other two being the Tuareg and the Moors). In the 14th Century, the Awlad Muhammad, a Moroccan maraboutic dynesty, wrested control away from the Toubou of a number of oases in ~ e z z a n ~ ~ . During the 18th Century, the Karamanli in Tripoli organized expeditions to recover control of Fezzan; and Toiibou raiding parties into Fezzan were forced back hy the Karamanli, who in turn were repulsed by the Toubou when the Karainanli forces attempted to occupy Tibesti in 1805. Jamalie7 (talk) 18:33, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres and it also says this about senussi lodges or zawiya Zawivas have been well described by several authorities.

For example, John Wright has referred to them as- "... lodges built at tribal centres, or at watering places and junctions on the trade and pilgrim routes, (which) served as inonasteries, schools, hostels, sources of ad ce and mediation and, in due 4 2 course. as administrative centres ." Another description, set out in a note for the British Foreign Office, dated September 1918, prepared by a British authority then posted to Cairo, M.S.

MacDonnell. is this:

"A kind of rnonastery, usually built in the most fertile spot on a trade route, containing school, rest-room for travellers, living accomiliodation for the sheikh and his family, a mosque, water 4 4 &, gencrally, Chapcllc, 9. &.

45 Wright, J.: Lihva. Chad and ihe Ceniral Sahara. London. Hursi & Company, 1989. p. W.

(A copy o f ihis page is aiiached ai Exhibii 16.) supply, and a walled-in enclostir rotection of the animals and personal belongings of travellers .

In a recent book by a French historian, zawivas are given this description:

"Les a. qtii sont autant de points d'appui fixes de la confrérie.

sont de véritables centres urbains où s'organisent les études.

1'2iccueil des cominerfants et des courriers, et la mise en exploitation par les esclaves des terres cultivables environnantes.

Certaines de ces - deux d'entre elles au moins au Tchad - sont deveves des places fortes pour faire face à la menace extérieure ." 3.47 The role of the & in carryiiig out the mission of the Senoussi was set out in the note of M.S. MacDonnell to the British Foreign Office, referred to above. In this note, he made the point that:

"A reformer of the Mohaininadan religicin must be prepared to assume the reins of temporal power to c a r y through his reforrns.

'ln Islam rule and religion go togetlier'." The note goes on to describe the founded in the oasis of Djaraboub in 1856 as the "mother" m4'. In the organization of the Senoussi Order, the Head of the Order was "absolute in spiritual rnatters and in al1 concerns of the brotherhood". H e made known his wishes through the "Moquaddamms" or notables, who were appointed leaders of sub-divisions- "... who in turn were assisted by the Sheikhs of Zawias to promote the policy of the leader, spread the teaching! collect the dues and foster the trade and industry of the adherents, while actigg at the same time as legislators, judges and referees on al1 tnatters ." 46 "Noie on ihe Political Situation in Tripoli and Qrendica". M.S. MacDonnell. Cüiro, FO 37113805, Sepiemher 1918. p. 1. MacDonncll also added thai:

"Educaiion also was n«l neglccted. Each Zawia contained a school wherc the childrcn of thc lollowers could he educaicd and furnish a supply of tulaha. or students. who were destine* for the eniourage of the Mahdi or as missionaries Io distant lands." Ihid., p. 3. British Archives Annex. p. 126. - 47 Triaud. J.L.: Tchad 1900-1902: Une cuerre Iranco-lihvenne ouhlike, Paris. L'H:irmatian.

1987. pp. 16-17, (A copy of these p a g e s is atlüched al Euhihii 17.) 48 &, para. 3.51, and Man No. 21. hclow. Djarahoub is in the Lihyan descrt ncar thc eastcrn houndary of Lihya with Egpt.

49 Noie of MacD~nnell. 9. &., p. 2, British Archives Annex. p. 127.

3.48 The saine note then describes what was involved in governing nomad tribes and how the Senoussi performed this function through their zawivas:

"A nomad people has three main preoccupations: firstly, security for itself and its belongings; secondly, a siifficiency of food and water for itself, its flocks and herds; and thirdly, but more rarely, facilities for trade.

The leader of the Senoussi Confrateriiity seeins to have realized the potentialities for power in one who could so organize his Order as to give it the greatest influence in furthering these ends.

Zawias were accordingly huilt at al1 the places where the best supply of water was to be obtained, these being in themselves both strategic points fur intertribal wart'are and stages on the great trade routes running from north to soiith and east to West. Having thus created a neutral meeting place for the trihes who hitherto had heen compelled to resort to a trial of armed strength to settle their differences, it was hut a short step tci persuade thein to siibmit their difficulties for solution by an authority which was above and outside tribal disputes. Tribal areas were defined and water and grazing rights agreed upon, while for the traders the Zawias took the place of exchanges where prices could be settled, ventures discussed end einbarked upon, and commodities disposed of; for al1 and sundry the Zawia afforded a secure and profitable meeting place where domestic, tribal, commercial, religious, and legal difficulties could be arranged, and such contact with the outer wor maintained as 8 was politically desirable or coinmercially necessary ." 3.49 The religious purpose of the Order's missionary drive was set out in the letter written by the head of the Senoussi to the people of Ounianga around 1850:

"We wish to ask you to obey what God and his Prophet have ordered, making the five (daily) prayers, keepinç the (fasting) month of Ramadan, giving tithe, making the i-& (pilgrimage) to the sacre home of God (Mecca) and avoiding whüt God hüs 2 1 forbidden ." It was essentially a revivalist movement in Islam. Once the Order became establislied among the tribes in Cyrenaica, its message of Islamic revival was carried across the Central Sahara and into the Eastern and Central Sudan along 5 1 Ziadeh. N.: Senoussi: A Studv ofn Revivalisc Movcment in Islam. Leiden. E.J. Brill, 1958.

pp. 95-96.

the traditional trading routes of the two great Cyrenaican tribes, the Mijabra and the Zuwaya. By winning their confidence, the Senoussi gained access to the communications network of the Sahara, the caravan routes52. The instruments of Senoussi policy were the brothers of the Ordrr (ikhwan) and the zawivas.

3.50 With the advance of the French militaiy forces after 1900 from the area of Lake Chad northward toward the borderlands of Borkou, Ennedi and Tibesti, and eastward toward Ouadaï, the Senoussi took on an expanded secular role: the organization of resistance among the indigenous tribes - the Toubou, the Tuareg and the Awlad Sulaiinan - against the armed advance of the French. This required that the zawivas established in Kanem, Borkou and Tibesti be fortified, unlike most of the zawivas elsewhere. Although the zawiviis in these regions were few in number cornpared to regions further to the north, those that were established had a major role to play in al1 aspects of the exercise of Senoussi authority. With the advance of the French, they wrre turned into great blockhouses for the defence of the faith and the organization of resistance. Jamalie7 (talk) 18:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres and this also about senussi and pre senussi settelments 3.52 There was a special affinity between the Senoussi and the remote areas of the Sahara and the Sudan, which were populated by nomadic tribes. In cities, such as Tripoli, its influence was far less than in far-away iireas among unruly nomadic tribes or partly settled peoples whose observance of the Jamalie7 (talk) 18:46, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres oh and this also about senussi The locations of some of the more important zawivas and of the trade routes discussed here and elsewhere are shown on Mao No. 21. The penetration of Fezzan from about 1850 onwards led the Senoussi southwards down the main trade routes to the oases of Kaouar, such as Bilina, which werr essential points of rest and replenishinent in the midst of the desert. By 1866 5 7 there was a & in the Kaouar oasis of Chemidour, just north of Bilrna .

Although the Senoussi did not initially establish a in Tibesti, to the east, there is evidence that the Order came in contact with rnembers of this tribe when the far-ranging Toubou traders visited the oases in Kaouar where zawivas already existed. Nachtigal, who was in Tibesti in 1869, had this to say on the subject:

"Froin Bardai [in Tihesti] is the most easterly part of the Fezzan district of Shergiya, the Wau group of oases. The road thither is well known to the Tu Tibesti people, for their spiritual authority, a Sanusi rnissionaty, lives in one of the oases, and to him they n«t infrequently rnak~~,jlgrimages to satisiy their spiritual needs and get secular advice .

3.55 South of Kaouar along the ciiravan route, Senoussi missionaries were welcomed by some of the Muslims of the decaying Sultanate of Jamalie7 (talk) 18:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me. We've covered this already, your claim is unsupported by reliable sources and doesn't belong on Wikipedia, and spamming more irrelevant quotes won't change that. R Prazeres (talk) 18:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres bro I just trying to help but it seem you won't listen you know how much it took to find those......I had to ask an Algerian for sources Jamalie7 (talk) 19:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Map in lead

Realityishere, if you'd like to add a historical map to the article, you need to provide verifiable details for context, ideally based on reliable sources, otherwise this just looks like WP:OR ("original research"). The policy on original research cautions about the use of primary sources here, for good reason. Since there is already a similar map at Ottoman Tripolitania (the state/territory that this dynasty ruled) that is based on a reliable secondary source and isn't in Arabic, it seems preferable to just provide that map as general context for readers, if one is needed at all.

Note that I've already nominated the map image for deletion at Commons, given that you seem to have pulled it from another source without attribution. If the image is not copyright protected, then you can provide an explanation and the original soruce at the deletion discussion there to clear up the issue.

If you resort to personal attacks again, however, as you've already done multiple times, you'll be reported to administrators. That kind of behaviour will not get you far on Wikipedia. R Prazeres (talk) 02:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

do yourself a favor and stop babbling about an arabic map. Im arabic myself and libyan and i know the history of my ancestors more than you, best of luck “R Prazeres” Realityishere (talk) 10:30, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

And the expansion/map of the karamanli dynasty is not the same as tripolitania there were to head rulers. Your welcome Realityishere (talk) 10:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

, There were two head rulers* Realityishere (talk) 10:33, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Let me just simplify the question: where did you get the map from? Keep in mind that Wikipedia:Verifiability is a core policy of Wikipedia, all edits must conform to it regardless of our personal knowledge or feelings. Can you please take a minute and make sure that you've read and understood it? This is the policy that I'm concerned about when it comes to your current edits here. It's an issue that might be easily resolved, if you just calm down and take a moment to answer this question sincerely, and we can start with that. R Prazeres (talk) 16:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Flag

@R Prazeres hey I am the guy who added the flag. I believe I cited a website that state this us the flag . so ? Hello 09761 (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Hello 09761, the website looks to me a like someone's personal webpage, which is not a reliable source. By "reliable source", I mean a published scholarly source or other high-quality source (e.g. a book or article by an academic historian), which is required by Wikipedia's policies (Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and the more general policy Wikipedia:Verifiability). This ensures that the content of articles is, in turn, reliable. Unfortunately, when it comes to historical states and dynasties (many of which did not have one official flag or had many flags over time), there are tons of flag images on the internet and even on Wiki Commons (where anyone can upload anything) that are not supported by any reliable source, and this is a recurring problem for Wikipedia. If you can find confirmation of this flag's existence and use by this dynasty in a reliable source, then please post it here and we can confirm if it's appropriate for the article. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 17:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres i once read an Arabic book which said it was basically all dark red flag but I'm not sure about. Hello 09761 (talk) 17:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Well there's no rush, if you find anything again in the future, feel free to post it here. Like I mentioned, it's not unlikely that more than one flag or more than one variation of it existed too. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 17:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres maybe the flags were to different units ? becuase the red one was mentioned in a border conflict with Egypt and the green with green crescent and white and red and hexagram are mentioned in naval conflicts ? Hello 09761 (talk) 17:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know, but that's why we need reliable sources to confirm things either way. If we can't confirm the information, then unfortunately it has to stay off Wikipedia for now. R Prazeres (talk) 17:41, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres okay i will but may I ask you something ? Hello 09761 (talk) 17:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

You can always ask. Also, please stop linking my username in your responses, because it sends me a separate notification every time, which is unnecessary when you already have my attention. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 17:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

okay. it not about the flag thing but it's about two books I read and both seem interesting one is Commandeering Empires: Egypt, Tripoli, and Tunis in the Age of Commandeering Empires: Egypt, Tripoli, and Tunis in the Age of Revolution, 1774-1835 Revolution, 1774-1835 which is really good it got recommended to me from a friends. in page 228 it say this: North African Imperialism, Expanded In Tripoli, plans for the pasha’s southern expansion into Bornu first materialized in 1817, after al-Makkani’s firm seizure of Fezzan from the Awlad Mohammed sultans. Yusuf Pasha decided to take advantage of the political instability in Bornu after the Fulani Jihad and the chaos of the invasions which were followed by growing rebellion in Kanem and Baghirmi which, with the support of the Wadai Sultanate, was attempting to break free from the Bornu Empire.

The Tripolitan governor made no secret of his desire to expand his reach southwards into the western Sudan.In his work on the history of Tripoli, Folayan wrote off Yusuf Pasha’s rationale behind targeting his attentions specifically on Bornu, south of the Kaouar [Kawar] salt oases in what is now northeastern Niger Hello 09761 (talk) 17:57, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

and then In this book Echoes of Empire Identity, Memory and Colonial Legacies page 23 and page 24: Gambia and the Guinea Coast, but their prospects improved as Tripoli began to project its own power into the Sahara. In 1788, the African Association recruited a long-time English resident of North Africa, Simon Lucas, to cross the Sahara from Tripoli, but reports of warfare along the caravan route convinced him that the undertaking was too risky. Friedrich Hornemann, another explorer sponsored by the African Association, retreated for a time to the safety of Tripoli when his efforts to reach West Africa from Cairo in 1798 stalled in Fezzan. He launched his second attempt from Tripoli in 1800, but his death from dysentery cut it short. When the Napoleonic Wars came to an end, Tripoli became the point of departure for several Colonial Off i ce-sponsored expeditions. The fi rst ended prematurely with the death of one of the two explorers. The second, however, was a huge success. In 1822–5, Dixon Denham and Hugh Clapperton reached Bornu and the Hausa states. They traveled under the protection of Yusuf Karamanli, and Denham claimed that he and his companions were as a consequence able to travel from Tripoli to Bornu with as little risk as if they had been going from London to Edinburgh.11 Soon thereafter Alexander Laing set off from Tripoli in search of Timbuktu, the holy grail of West African explorers, becoming the fi rst European to enter that fabled city in 1826. The loss of Fezzan to rebel Arabs and Berbers in 1831 and the civil war that followed Yusuf Karamanli’s fall from power in 1832 closed the route from Tripoli for a time, though it did reopen after the Ottomans restored their own suzerainty in 1835. One benef i ciary was Heinrich Barth, a German scientist who joined a British-sponsored expedition that set out from Tripoli for the interior in 1850. While the other members of the expedition died, Barth survived and slogged on, travelling across much of West Africa over the next fi ve years and returning to Europe to publish the most detailed and informed account of the region ever written by an explorer.12 Why did Yusuf Karamanli permit the British to launch these expeditions from Tripoli’s shores? They brought benef i ts for himself and his state. He negotiated a fee of £25,000 from the British government to permit the Denham and Clapperton expedition to enter the interior. The British consul who negotiated the deal explained to his superiors that the money would be used to help Karamanli conquer the interior states of Bornu and Sudan, which would in turn ‘enable Him to relinquish the Slave Trade’.13 Karamanli did indeed have imperial ambitions, but he had no intention of relinquishing the trade in slaves. He used the British funds to fi nance an army that accompanied Denham and Clapperton across the Sahara and launched a campaign of conquest, sending captives as slave labourers for the fi elds of Fezzan and to North African slave markets. Tripoli conducted this operation under the pretence of protecting the explorers from the very peoples who were its targets.14 When Alexander Laing arrived in Tripoli in 1825 to launch his expedition in search of Timbuktu, Karamanli prevented him from setting out until the British Hello 09761 (talk) 17:59, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

consul-general contributed 8,000 Spanish dollars, supplemented by a second ‘Secret Present’ of 1,000 dollars.15 In return for this payment, Laing received a letter of credit and a promise of safe passage across the Sahara. This was useful so far as it went, but Karamanli’s inf l uence did not extend into the vicinity of Timbuktu Hello 09761 (talk) 18:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres are those two reliable source and should I add the things written or not ? Hello 09761 (talk) 18:01, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

What exactly are you trying to add? R Prazeres (talk) 18:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

honestly I thought maybe something like yusuf expeditions into sub Saharan africa. but I still don't know but are those reliable sources or not ? Hello 09761 (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

There are plenty of reliable sources that discuss Yusuf's expeditions south, and those seem fine. However, I notice this seems to be a direct continuation of a previous discussion above by a blocked editor trying to repeatedly push unsupported claims about a "conquest" of Chad. If that's not you and you don't plan on doing the same thing, then you can add content, so long as it is directly based on reliable sources, with citations, and as long as you avoid adding any of your own interpretation to it (see WP:OR). I'm even happy to add that material myself at a later time, but only once the ongoing disruption by another editor is dealt with. R Prazeres (talk) 18:16, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres oh thanks but may I ask on the first source I didn't understand it completely i understood that Yusuf took the civil war in bornu and invaded few parts and held some territories in kawar i think that is my understanding could you clear that for me sorry for being annoying. Hello 09761 (talk) 18:20, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll have to read more about it from the book directly and see what the author says, but I don't have time to do that right now. If you know of an accessible online copy of the book, that would help. Nevermind, it's a thesis, not a book, so I have it. A published book would be preferable but I'll still read it when I have a chance. R Prazeres (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres mister may I ask i found a book that say there was a war between the French and senussi in chad over Tebisti which won by the senussi. its called the history of the senussi movement in africa Hello 09761 (talk) 16:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I've already added a summary subsection of the trans-Saharan campaigns based on reliable sources. No mention of the French was made in the references I consulted. If you want to add anything, please cite the source clearly and, preferably, provide a direct quote to make sure you are not adding WP:OR. R Prazeres (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres so he conquered parts of sub saharan Africa? Hello 09761 (talk) 05:13, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres oh and isn't awlad Sulaiman tribe the tribe origin of buggara Arabs who settled in northren Niger Chad and Nigeria? Hello 09761 (talk) 05:16, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Persistent sockpuppetry on this page

I'd just like to make a general note that we have now had at least three iterations of confirmed sockpuppet accounts (currently blocked) who have been active on the article since March 2023 and who pushed the same WP:OR over and over again in the discussions above. Please also note that endlessly listing sources and quotes that do not support the proposed changes, and repeatedly pinging the same editor over and over again, does not help to solicit the consensus needed to accept any proposed changes. Finally, if this kind of disruption and misleading behaviour continues or gets worse, a request may be made for page protection, which will prevent new accounts and IPs from editing altogether. R Prazeres (talk) 17:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)