Talk:Karaylar

Merge

I propose that the article for this talk page become the root for the articles on Kereit, Turkic Karaites, Giray dynasty, and House of Garay etc, all of which were branches from the ancient Dulo clan of Karaylar. Also much of the Qaraei article needs to be moved here and that page should become dedicated to Kara Tatars alone who are only barely connected to the Karaylar. One of the sections in this article needs to talk about the conversion of certain karaylar to Christianity of the Naimans, but there is not much need for a whole separate Kerait article. The current Giray dynasty article is only about a short period in Karaylar history. Meanwhile the Crimean Karaites article is simply and for the most-part erroneous and a repeat of the Karaite Judaism article which has nothing to do with the more islamic Karaite Karaism of the Karaylar anyway. Kaz 21:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Delete or Keep?

User:Toddy1 and User:Неполканов I personally believe this title should be deleted from wikipedia because 1) Karaylar does not appear to be an English term, 2) Karaylar is ambiguous in meaning, 3) Karaylar marginal in use 4) and Karaylar has apparently caused nothing but controversy. But since you both seem to want to keep it in existence I though I should draw your attention here for you to produce your sources first please. You both claim to have problems with the works of User:Kaz (which looking through his contributions I can understand) as much as I have a problem with the works of User:Ancientsteppe and his sock-puppets. (If the two are not the same person.) But I do not understand why you want to preserve all of his works and ideas which apparently was to conflate Muslism and Christians and Jews and Shamanists together under the names of a type of Karaite Jew. Nevertheless, if there are sources which promote the ideas he was promoting please produce them for discussion. As far as I can tell Krymkaraylar call themselves Кърымкъарайлар where Къ would be a Q not a K anyway so what is English language the source for this word "Karaylar" other than Nehemiah Gordon's wall? In other words, if not those of User:Kaz or User:Ancientsteppe I want to know whose idea it is you are promoting here? ThanksYuHuw (talk) 08:32, 21 January 2016 (UTC) If you are sincere, why did you create the article from a redirect at 07:20, 21 January 2016?[reply]

I will revert back to a redirect.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:41, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I explained clearly here and explained why I believe this title should not belong on wikipedia here, but the revert you did not explain so I will restore the disambiguation until you produce some sources User:Toddy1. YuHuw (talk) 08:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Folks, this title is clearly just the Turkish word for Crimean Karaites. That's all. It's not independant word as claimed by article. I didn't find any reference about Nehemiah Gordon promoting it as independent group of people, but even if it is, it just an opinion of one, non mainstream controversal rabbinical figure. My opinion this does not belong to English wikipedia Arthistorian1977 (talk) 08:56, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As for using it as disambiguation page, there is one already - Karaite. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 08:59, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I put the reference from Nehemiah Gordon in for you Arthistorian1977 YuHuw (talk) 09:00, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For consensus I am only asking for some sources that this word is 1 genuinely English. 2 genuinely refers ONLY to Crimean Karaites. That is all I want. Sources, otherwise why not delete the title entirely? If it should be disambiguated then redirect to Karaite (disambiguation) and include comment that the word is Karaylar in Turkic but with a source confirming that please. YuHuw (talk) 09:02, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So to clarify, I believe it should either

1) deleted entirely,

2) or IF it can be proven that this is indeed a genuine English language term redirected to Karaite with a comment on the Karaite page that Karaylar is equivalent to that term,

3) or redirected to the article about Karaite Jews in Crimea IF it can be proven that this is a genuine word referring to Karaite Jews (which is the topic of the Crimean Karaites article)

but apparently the reference by Nehemiah Gordon says otherwise. He specifically uses this word to refer to people who do not consider themselves to have Jewish heritage. I have yet to see any other English language use of the term. Also if it really is only about Crimean Karaites then the Crimean Karaites article must be entirely re-written to remove the Karaite Jewish bias since Nehemiah Gordon clearly illustrates that the people who call themselves Karaylar do not claim any Jewish heritage. Personally, I know that there are genuine Karaite Jews at Yevpatoria in Crimea ([1] [2] who as can be seen in no way do not deny their Jewish heritage but are in close relations with Universal Karaite Judaism based in Israel under Hakham Moshe Firrouz) so the discussion is really rather moot. Karaylar obviously does not refer to the religious group called Kara'im / Qara'im. YuHuw (talk) 09:15, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the Crimean Karaites call themselves Karaylar and do not claim any Jewish heritage but Turkic (Khazarian not Keraite) origin. There are many exceptions in Moscow ,Eupatoria,Feodisia.But all of them (Turkic radicals from Lithuania too) see themselves one ethnic group(Karaim in East European Languages,Xrimean Karaites in English). No one,even in Lithuania, do not see himself Nestorian Christian Неполканов (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Who said they are Nestorians? By analogy, Qara-Tatars are said to descend from the Keraite Nestorians but the Qara-Taars are Muslims now. I have not seen anyone say that Crimean Karaites are Nestorians except Shapshal here [3]. You need to read more carefully. Karaite Jews in Crimea are Karaite Jews. Turkic Karaites are Turkic Karaites. They are clearly distinct from each other as you said yourself here [4] Karaylar are not homogenous. The term is ambiguous. In fact you are clearly illustrating over and again that even the term "Crimean Karaite" is an ambiguous term covering two distinct and irreconcilable communities of people in Crimea.

Also you now say they claim descent from Khazars which seems to contradict what you wrote here [5] where you say that Scientists "really" believe that they are from Asia (the Golden Horde). Unless you are saying that the scientists say they are from Asia (the Golden Horde) but they themselves claim to be from Khazars. Is that because of this [6]? YuHuw (talk) 08:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Even religious Crimeam Karaites does not see himselves Karaite Jews from etnic point of view. They see thereselves belong to one Karaim people (translated to English is Crimean Karaites). Converted to Christianity also see themselves as Crimean Karaites of Christian religion(e.g Sarach that sponsored Crimean Karaites nationalists movement in XX century . There is no disambig of Irish people while there are Catolics Protestans and secular Irish all over the world. The same for Crimean Karaites. PLese learn Shapshal biography, Actually he has Jewish name Seraya Ben Mordechai that burn in family of "Karaite Jews" ,according you definition. In spite of his secularity he was chosen to Karaite Judaism religous post of Hacham of Crimean Karaoites in Lithuania and Poland and led the radical dejudaisation process,continuin by some Karaite authors in these days including his forgery traditions(like Karaites dishes is beef with milk,actually it is Tatar dishes that taken by non relegious Crimean Karaites),The site that you cited here is site of his strongest opponent Gerşom Qiprisçi that blames modern Crimean Karaites to be more radical that Shapshal:>"Нам — современным караимам-просветителям, воскрешающим духовное наследие «Русских Караимов Ветхозаветного Вероисповедания» (то есть караимов всей Восточной Европы, в прошлом бывшей под властью Российской империи) близки идеи караимских просветителей 19-начала XX века — династии Луцких, Султанского, династии Бабовичей, Фирковича, Шишмана об этногенезе караимов Европы в качестве библейско-тюркско-персидской общины — то есть остатка библейского Израиля по мужской линии и прозелитами — перешедшими в караизм из других народов, смешанных с женщинами из среды тюрков-кыпчаков и хазар и персов-татов. В то же время нам абсолютно чужды безграмотные, антинаучные и попросту невежественные идеи-фантазии нынешних пантюркистов-популистов, не знающих по-настоящему, в отличие от их духовного вождя Шапшала, ни одного караимского языка (не только иврита и арабского, на которых созданы тысячи караимских текстов, но даже и тюркского!), и пишущих свои любительские антинаучные статейки в основном по-русски или на другом славянских языках, утверждающих, что современные караимы — это исключительно потомки хазаров-язычников."Хазарский след", сколь заманчивым он бы ни был в конце XIX начале XX века — не объясняет всего сложного комплекса этногенеза караимов, и в особенности караимов Восточной Европы. Не выдерживает эта теория и проверки современной лингвистикой и генетикой. Все тюркские языки и диалекты, которыми пользовались караимы на протяжении своей истории принадлежат к кыпчакской и огузской подгруппам тюркской группы языков, а не к хазарской, а с точки зрения ДНК — караимы Восточной Европы имеют не только тюркские, но и ближневосточные гены."Лекция 7. О караимской самоидентификации. Часть 3 .There he also mentions "Turkic karaite" and "Karaylar" terms relating to selname of this etnic gtoup while blameing non Israeli origin claims of russified modern Karaite leaders« Концепция карайлар — псевдо-пантюркской русскоговорящей группы людей, искусственно созданной полуязычниками-полуатеистами XX века — будет ассоциироваться с непродолжительным этапом тьмы и заблуждения в истории караимов Восточной Европы…В смысле пантюркизма современных караимов Восточной Европы мы имеем дело с настоящим феноменом. Если ещё в Польше и Литве есть ещё отдельные люди способные читать на караимско-татарском языке, понимая его, языке, близком к языку средневекового „Кодекс Куманикус“, то в России и на Украине таких практически нет, разве только те, что усвоили крымскотатарский язык от вернувшихся из изгнания в Узбекистане крымских татар, куда последние были выгнаны Сталиным. Определяя себя в качестве мифических „караев“, а не караимов-тюрков, они, при этом, подчёркивают свою отдельность и обособленность как от иудеев, и даже от караимов Ближнего Востока, так и от самых близких к ним по языку (которого они, правда, в большинстве своём сами не знают!) крымских и литовских татар, карачаевцев, кумыков и прочих кыпчакских по принадлежности к языковой группе народов (именно к кыпчакской, а не к хазарской — ветви тюркских языков» .Gershom himself like most of Crimean Karaites claims for non Judean(similiar Rabbanite Jews) but Israeli origin of Turkic Karaites (караимов-тюрков) mainly in Crimea. Sorry for Rusiian source but 99% of the sourses about the issue are in Russian Your cite above is a good example for that and for internal disputes in side this etnic group . You may translate my cites from there by Google. Неполканов (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not actually interested in what Gersom had to say although I can see from your heavy quotation of Gershom's page that you and your predecessor both respect that man as RS? Is that right? I was simply pointing out that Shapshal connected his people's ancestors to the Nestorians on that page. But you failed to respond to that comment. YuHuw (talk) 23:12, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]