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Talk:Killing of Andy Lopez

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The article states: "....which did not have the orange tip that is a legal requirement for all toy guns.[citation needed]" and repeats "...but did not have the orange tip which [is] a legal requirement for all toy guns)."

The federal import laws strongly suggest that realistic toy guns be made distinct from real guns and suggests orange barrel tip as one way. There is no federal requirement that replica or toy guns in private possession have an orange tip. That may be a requirement in Santa Rosa, or Sonoma County, or California. If so, the laws should be cited. It is simply NOT a legal requirement for all toy guns, so citation of the applicable law (if any) is needed.

[Auto Ordnance makes realistic steel and wood collectors replicas of the Thompson submachinegun and ships their replica guns with orange plugs extending beyond the muzzle to meet local laws that may require it; I bought a Numrich Arms replica of a British Sten Gun which did not have an orange tip. It is not a federal requirement, and is not required by law where I live.] --Naaman Brown (talk) 11:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

15 C.F.R. Part 272 is pretty explicit that all toy firearms built and sold after May 5, 1989 should be clearly and permanently marked. §272.3(b) gives the muzzle tip coloring as one acceptable manner of marking the toy: "A blaze orange ... color ... marking permanently affixed to the exterior surface of the barrel, covering the circumference of the barrel from the muzzle end for a depth of at least 6 millimeters."
The regulation covers (§272.1) devices modelled on real 'modern' firearms that were produced after 1898, which would include both the Thompson (1918) and Sten (1941) guns. It is possible your replica Sten was manufactured prior to 1989, when the law took effect, or may have received a waiver under the provisions of §272.4 ("used only in the theatrical, movie or television industry.") §272.5 indicates this federal law takes precedence over local and state laws with respect to markings. I am not a lawyer, but 15CFR272 seems pretty straightforward with respect to what's required.
Note that §272.1(a) does to exclude 'antique' replica weapons, those devices modeled on real firearms produced prior to 1898. More relevantly, §272.1(b) clearly does exclude B-B, paintball and airsoft-type pellet guns from the marking requirements. This is echoed in 15 U.S.C. 5001(c). Therefore there appears to be no federal requirement for Andy Lopez's airsoft gun to be so marked. --Mliu92 (talk) 21:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why shot?

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The article doesn't make it clear why the officer decided to shoot. It just says that he was holding the toy gun and then, basically, that he was shot. Did he begin to turn? Did he make an aggressive gesture? Ayzmo (talk) 22:08, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate photo

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The photo in the article shows a replica with the orange tip - it has been shown that the replica used in the shooting does not have the orange tip and should be reflected in the side-by-side comparison. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.225.207.97 (talk) 16:50, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 22 January 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. While procedural concerns have been noted, there have not been substantive objections raised as to why these should not follow WP:DEATHS, which while not being a policy/guideline has general community consensus behind it. When considering the comments discussing the merits of the moves, there is a clear consensus in favor of moving. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 03:03, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– Recent RMs show a consensus for using "Killing of" in articles describing a fatal shooting by police. Most recently, Shooting of Amadou Diallo was moved to Killing of Amadou Diallo with no objections. Based on this, and on the convention proposed by :WP:DEATHS, I am presenting the above multi-page move. In all of these incidents:

  • There was a fatal shooting by a member of the police, which meets the definition of a homicide.
  • There was no conviction for murder, nor are there any pending murder charges.
  • There is no overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME argument against the move. 162 etc. (talk) 18:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC) —  Relisting. BD2412 T 04:42, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the Babbitt move, neutral on the rest for now. I know that all three of 162 etc.'s criteria are true for Babbitt, but I haven't looked into the rest. I am supportive in principle of moving pages in accordance with WP:DEATHS. Firefangledfeathers 05:54, 23 January 2022 (UTC) striking and unbolding 04:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I now Support all the moves, except Autumn Steele. I did a rudimentary comparison of Google News search results, and it looks very unlikely that any of the proposed moves have a COMMONNAME at "Killing of" except Steele, which has 193 hits for "Shooting of", no hits at all for "Killing of", and 8 results for "death of". It's not conclusive evidence of a COMMONNAME, so count me as neutral on this specific move. Firefangledfeathers 04:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose bulk move. Take it case by case. Feoffer (talk) 06:11, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose In my experience, "killing" tends to suggest some sort of active, malicious intent involved in the person's death, similar to "murder of". "Shooting of" or "death of" is more passive. In the case of Amadou Diallo, it is widely considered wrongful, so the title would make sense. However, this is not the case for every single person listed. Ashli Babbitt, for example, was in the midst of breaching the Capitol when killed. It is difficult to characterize something done in clear defense of national security as a "killing", though "shooting" would be apt. Per Feoffer, a case by case basis would make much more sense.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 09:13, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it’s certainly overstating to presume “malicious intent” by the word killing. The death of Ashli Babbitt was not passive, nor clearly unintentional, nor accidental, regardless of what outcome was desirable.
    I think the only real consideration is whether someone’s dying is more important than the manner of their death… and in almost all cases, the death is the more important factor. — HTGS (talk) 04:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commnet Both are valid to my mind, shooting does not imply wrongfully, any more than Killing implies it was an accident. But we should have consistency.Slatersteven (talk) 11:08, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural oppose. I know a bulk move might be more efficient, but each one of these cases is unique and I would prefer that each one has its own separate RM discussion. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:42, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really wanted to avoid that. There are a lot of these "Shooting of" articles [1], and almost all are about fatal shootings. This is just the "A"s. I've nominated four of these already, and each has passed, with less and less pushback each time. It would appear that the community usually supports WP:DEATHS in this respect. As was noted at Talk:Killing of Dijon Kizzee during that RM, that a person was killed is more notable than a person was shot.
I wasn't sure about including Ashli Babbitt here, and probably shouldn't have, as it is an admittedly more controversial case. If we can agree to move the rest, I'll strike it from the nomination. 162 etc. (talk) 21:12, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc.: have you considered just bold moving the ones that are uncontroversial? Then if/when any are contested you can have the case by case RM discussions where warranted. I don't think killing of/shooting of articles are amenable to the bulk move discussion format, which is better suited to article families in a single subject area. VQuakr (talk) 15:11, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Currently, moving any article from "Death of" or "Shooting of" to "Killing of" is a controversial move. This is because WP:DEATHS is not a policy, or even a guideline, but an explanatory supplement that doesn't have full community consensus behind it yet. My intention with this RM was to further solidify the community consensus (as it appears that "Killing of" has increasingly wide support, and opinion has shifted towards it since WP:DEATHS was codified in December 2020.) Should this mass move go through, then I'd say it's reasonable and uncontroversial to bold move similar articles. 162 etc. (talk) 17:19, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc.: I know WP:DEATHS isn't policy. That doesn't make a move controversial (unless someone has voiced opposition to "killing of..." in all cases in the past?). If there hasn't been discussion of a move in the past, it's generally reasonable to assume that a bold move isn't reckless. To me that's greatly preferable than bundling a bunch of disparate articles into a RM discussion, and I certainly don't agree that a bundled RM at a low-visibility talk page is a data point in favor of changing something to a guideline. VQuakr (talk) 20:33, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:DEATHS. I strongly urge anyone opposed to these moves go to the talk page of the deaths naming conventions and argue for a change to the current convention and the flow chart. Otherwise all of these moves should be uncontroversial, and probably didn’t even need an RM.
I will support anyone who wants a sensible change to the convention, or even a change to how strictly the convention should be applied, but we can’t have a convention that we don’t apply fairly to every page. None of these pages carry compelling reasons to be excepted from the current standard. — HTGS (talk) 02:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because shooting is more informative than just killing.Maria Gemmi (talk) 11:05, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME, including Babbit's article. Google ngram results indicate that "killing of" is more common in print media than "shooting of". This suggests that readers will be more likely to reach the article they are looking for when the articles start with "killing".--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:11, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural close / Oppose bulk move. Take it case by case. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:50, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:DEATHS, which is clear on this. If someone was killed, but wasn't murdered, it's "Killing of" and if they were shot and didn't die it's "Shooting of" (look at the bottom of the page). This bulk move discussion seems like an efficient way to deal with all of these non-conforming names or articles, and I don't know why there would be a procedural problem. I should add that the criteria chosen by the starter of this discussion are well-defined and that all of the listed cases fit them. twsabin 10:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:DEATHS is an explanatory supplement, not PAG. VQuakr (talk) 14:50, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:DEATHS. These types of discussions are pretty much settled law at this point, the precedent is to strong to steer away from. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 01:07, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support According to the Brady gun control group, about 2/3 of Americans who are shot end up surviving and about 1/3 die. "Killing" therefore contains more unambiguous encyclopedic content than "shooting". Presumably, the figures are somewhat similar in other countries. Wartime fatality rates are even lower because the shots are usually fired from much longer distances and are therefore less accurate. Cullen328 (talk) 04:30, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:DEATHS. The whole point of the long discussion and RFC that led to the creation of WP:DEATHS is to not have individual RMs about every title. It's not a good use of editor time to do that. WP:DEATHS sets the default. IMO, moving titles to their WP:DEATHS default shouldn't even require an RM, it's an uncontroversial technical move. If any title, now or in the future, develops a WP:COMMONNAME, it can be moved to that common name from its WP:DEATHS default. But the default is what WP:DEATHS says, which, for an article about a homicide (such as a fatal shooting), is "Killing of...". Levivich 14:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm assuming you're referring to WT:Article titles/Archive 58#RfC: Shooting or Death or Killing or Murder? that was closed as no consensus. WP:DEATHS shouldn't be treated as if it were policy when it explicitly, intentionally isn't. VQuakr (talk) 15:07, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "that was closed as no consensus" is a blatant lie untrue. Levivich 16:00, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Levivich: WP:AGF, please. Maybe we are talking about a different RfC? Can you please link the one that you are referring to? The closure statement on the one I linked above notes While is not the level of support that is necessary to create a guideline (officially a no consensus outcome), there is enough of a consensus to create an explanatory supplement, so in that one there's obviously no lie, blatant or otherwise, to describe it as no consensus in response to a !vote that treated WP:DEATHS as if it were a guideline. VQuakr (talk) 20:09, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Describing that as "no consensus" was not honest because of the "consensus to create an explanatory supplement" part. Levivich 20:53, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    My post was both clear and accurate. You're referring to WP:DEATHS as something we should follow and to the RfC as if it were closed conclusively, when in reality the explanatory supplement is just a suggestion that doesn't necessarily have broad acceptance and the flow diagram doesn't mesh well with our actual policy at WP:TITLE. Sort of ironic since I do agree that most of these can simply be moved without discussion. But if a RM discussion is warranted, it should not be bundled with others just because the title string is similar. VQuakr (talk) 22:43, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:DEATHS is an explanatory supplement; the RfC found no consensus for promoting it to a guideline. It is absolutely bizarre for you to claim that's untrue when everyone is one click away from verifying this as fact. VQuakr (talk) 23:15, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not because I disagree with the move, but because I see the potential for lots of arguing about it after the fact. This is the kind of thing people have strong opinions about. I know it's a bit of a "make work" thing, but investing the time now to do each of these as a separate RM is likely to save lots of time later. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:34, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose bulk moving these. Should be evaluated case by case, or consensus reached at the MOS first. VQuakr (talk) 14:48, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:DEATHS and precedent. Consistency in article naming is desirable here, and we have existing conventions. Some reasons for preferring "shooting" over "killing" are given, but Cullen328 gives a clear reason that "killing" is better than "shooting". We need not waste time with dozens and dozens of unnecessary RMs. — Bilorv (talk) 23:47, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support That's what the articles should be called according to the explanatory supplement for naming conventions, WP:DEATHS. It says that shooting of should only be used if the person survives. If anyone wishes to disagrees, they should get the supplement changed. It violates neutrality that we should have an article called the Killing of Trayvon Martin, while others are called death of or shooting of. We are saying that one assailant was less guilty than another. TFD (talk) 01:06, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose WP:DEATHS is an explanatory supplement and cannot be relied on to be conclusive. Anyway it says "A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source" and that does not seem to apply in some of these articles. For example, in the case of Shooting of Anthony Grainger the reference to the manner of death speculates what an official report would later find. There may well be a prior official authority or a later statement about the official report but neither seem to be mentioned in the article. So the flowchart (and therefore WP:DEATHS?) do not apply in the article's present state. I understand the nominator's wish to avoid individual discussions and a simple solution is not to bother with making individual nominations. Just move on. There are far better things to do. Thincat (talk) 10:50, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose mass move. Though, generally, mass moves are legitimate, they are intended for cases where the nature of the subject is identical across all articles. But a "shooting" is not always correct to be denoted as a "killing". -The Gnome (talk) 13:39, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: if WP:DEATHS was a guideline, I would heartily say yes; but since it's an explanatory supplement, it's best to discuss each on a case-by-case basis. For many of these, shooting of X is a much more WP:COMMONNAME than killing of X. Pilaz (talk) 22:27, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can you give an example of one where there is a common name of "shooting of"? Levivich 14:05, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • [2], [3], [4],[5], among many others. Pilaz (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        Nope. The first one is an opinion piece; the second is a DOJ press release, the fourth is Lawfareblog, leaving only the third as an actual example of RS media coverage. It takes more than one news article to show WP:COMMONNAME. COMMONNAME doesn't mean "someone is using the name". A COMMONNAME is a "single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic" that is "determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources". So it's going to take a "significant majority" of independent RS to show that "shooting of" is "demonstrably the most frequently used". It's not easy and it takes more than one link (or even four links). Levivich 16:24, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Needs case-by-case analysis. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can you give an example of one that is different from the others in a meaningful way? Levivich 14:05, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Well I gave an example above but perhaps it was TLDR. Thincat (talk) 14:17, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't see the difference you pointed to, that one of the articles doesn't include an official determination, as a meaningful difference. Fatal shootings are "killings". These are all people shot to death by police, per nom. There is no denying that these are all "killings". That's just irrefutable because of the definition of the word. To show one of these is different in a meaningful way, one would have to show (with evidence) that at least one of them has a common name other than "killing of", or at least one ended in a murder conviction, or wasn't fatal. A "meaningful" difference is a difference that would affect the title. The only way to show that a bundle is improper is to show that at least two of the articles, if analyzed alone, would result in two different outcomes--that calls the propriety of the bundle into question. So which one of these articles should not be named "Killing", and why? Which of these people was not actually killed? If the answer is "none", then there's no reason not to bundle. Levivich 15:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I didn't suppose you would agree with me. My focus on official was because of the wording in WP:DEATHS but I don't think it is a good explanatory supplement either. Thincat (talk) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      The wording of WP:DEATHS is that editors should take the following points into consideration ... A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority .... It doesn't say an official determination is some kind of prerequisite to calling it a "killing", it just says we should take it into consideration. It also doesn't say that the article must include the determination, only that one should be made before we rely on it. Here it is, the official report, which concludes that Grainger was shot and killed by police. So we have an official determiantion of manner of death, and here is a secondary source reporting it. Grainger's article satisfies WP:DEATHS.
      As I say: to show we need a case-by-case analysis, one must show that at least one of the articles in this bundle would, if analyzed individually, have a different outcome than the others. Grainger is not such an article. Levivich 16:55, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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