Talk:Kiss (South Korean group)

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On 8 December 2017, it was proposed that this article be moved from Kiss (South Korean band) to Kiss (South Korean group). The result of the discussion was not moved.

Pictures

Thank you for uploading the pictures. However, these pictures are copyright promotional pictures that are not available on a press site and are therefore not free. Wikipedia prefers free images over fair use ones. On "people" pages, someone can easily take a picture of them and release it on the Net, thus making it free. That's why these pictures don't cut it, unfortunately. It's not me being picky, but it's Wikipedia policy, because it's an organization and must follow strict copyright laws.

By the way, this is mostly for future reference. Although these pictures ARE copyrighted and would normally not be allowed, since the group has broken up and the website gone...I have no idea if these are still violations. SKS2K6 04:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. 25 days old and two relistings later, there is strong opposition to this page move as proposed. There might yet be a better disambiguation for this title, such as Kiss (girl group) or similar, so there is no prejudice toward editors making another attempt to garner consensus. (closed by page mover) Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 02:15, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kiss (South Korean band) → Kiss (South Korean group) – "Band" is usually reserved for music groups where the performers play instruments (see Band (rock and pop); compare TLC (group), Steps (group), Home Free (group), Little Big (group), Xscape (group)). bd2412 T 21:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 04:47, 16 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 20:51, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~Not sure~~ the reason not convinced is that "group" could mean a social organisation, and its very rare to find a group that really has no attached instrumentalists. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:45, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- An alternative would be "girl group", but we do already have many titles for entities like this using the parenthetical "group". Either way, I find "band" problematic. Instrumentalists involved in the production of the music are not considered part of the group in the article, and when K-pop groups like this perform in concert, it is generally to a prerecorded track, not with live instrumentalists. bd2412 T 02:02, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Boy bands are not bands, but they seem to be the exception. — AjaxSmack 01:11, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think there is some alliteration at play there - boy band, but girl group. On the other hand, in hip hop music there is reference to "rap groups" (typically all-male) but not to "rap bands". bd2412 T 01:23, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well maybe but Oppose sorry, the case hasn't been made that this isn't a (band) in en.wp terms. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The "usually reserved" argument is weak. Band tells me that in music, it means a Musical ensemble. Counter examples include: The Hilltoppers (band); Enchanters (Detroit doo-wop band); Ladders (band); Hi-5 (Australian band). In Korean, they seem to be called a "trio". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:37, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @SmokeyJoe: How about Kiss (trio) (or Kiss (South Korean trio) as a target? There is still a substantial preponderance of articles on K-pop singing ensembles having "group" rather than "band" as a disambiguator, which would make this more consistent with other titles on the same type of entity. bd2412 T 14:18, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - I guess, I’m feeling uneasy, that you are turning a preponderance into a rule. I’m normally pro Consistency. Vocal groups are uncommonly called bands, but sometimes are. What if they dance? What if they occasionally pull out a small instrument? Or a borderline instrument like a tamberine, or if they clap? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:01, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - I would prefer KISS (music group), per the translation of the Korean article, which uses "음악 그룹" (music group), occurring six times on the page. "KISS" not "Kiss", because, unlike Kiss (American band), KISS is explicitly an acronym, of "Korea International Super Star". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:24, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - How about Kiss (girl group)? Girl group has a whole section on the emergence of the genre in Asia. bd2412 T 02:37, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - That works. Nice connection to Girl group. Feels dangerously gendered, but that's how it is. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:00, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The "oppose" is per WP:TITLECHANGES. I don't think the rationale is strong enough to justify the move. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:26, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is an unspoken consideration in the fact that there exists a Kiss (band), which is the clear primary topic of bands named "Kiss", which apparently causes some discomfort to people who would like that title to be further disambiguated. The American ensemble often markets itself as a stylized "KISS", so capitalization is no help. Moving the K-Pop flash-in-the-pan clarifies that there is only one entity that is commonly really thought of as a band called Kiss, and one entity that is (or was) something different in the realm of musical ensembles. bd2412 T 02:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am surprised that KISS doesn't redirect to Kiss (band), or that it is not located at KISS. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:00, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

KISS could also refer to KISS principle or other topics as well as the two bands. Also see MOS:ALLCAPS, WP:TITLETM, MOS:TM, and WP:INCDAB. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:40, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BarrelProof, it could. But it doesn't. The "KISS" principle is always referred to using "principle, AND it is an acronym (Keep It Simple Stupid). What's with all the shortcuts, are you trying to bamboozle? Ironic given reference to the principle in the same paragraph. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:34, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I dispute the idea that the "KISS principle" is never referred to without the word "principle". It could easily be at "KISS (slogan)" or "KISS (concept)" or "Keep it simple, stupid" (or even "KISS" if that was not too ambiguous). I believe the four shortcuts I provided are all relevant. I'm not trying to bamboozle anyone – I'm just trying to help identify the relevant policy and guidelines. The first three of those shortcuts are to guidance that discourages the use of all-caps styling for the name of the American band, thus answering your question about why the Kiss (band) article "is not located at KISS". The last one says that if a term (such as "KISS") that is less ambiguous than another term (such as "Kiss") is still ambiguous, it should be redirected to the main associated dab page (in this case, "Kiss (disambiguation)"). —BarrelProof (talk) 04:06, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are more-or-less mistaken on every point. Not you personally, but so many Wikipedians. I have no problem in firmly holding minority opinions if need be. I also think that is it a big mistake for all major search engines to have no case-sensitive option. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:15, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because "South Korean group" can refer to absolutely anything, Political anti group, Group of monkeys, etc etc) - For me "band" although not technically PRECISE it's better than what's proposed, I don't really have any better suggestions other than "Kiss (Trio)" and even that sounds stupid, Better off where it is tbh. –Davey2010 ^{Merry Xmas / Happy New Year} 02:39, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I feel the same way. At the moment, with "South Korean" in the title, there is no confusion with the American band. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:34, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:4L (band) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:19, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]