Talk:Krakornica

WP:SCOPE

I added the first modern demographic listing of the village (1878). It can't be removed as "unneeded" because it falls under the scope of the article. .--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Kluche why are you removing my edit exactly? Please state relevant policies to support its exclusion. Alltan (talk) 16:41, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Alltan I've already stated it twice - WP:NOTEVERYTHING, it's absurd to give names and surnames of people and names of random songs in an article about a village; and the fact that the mentioned research by Osmani is not cited. As long as the relevant paper is not cited, I'm against the inclusion of this paragraph. Kluche (talk) 16:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

It is cited, a few pages down (pg.133) in the references of the study. Osmani 2007 = Osmani-Selimi, Edibe, Lirika popullore në trevat e Tetovës dhe të Gostivarit II, Tetovë, 2007. Alltan (talk) 17:07, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Alltan I meant it wasn't cited in the article. I suggest you cite it as a seperate citation, and possibly shortening the current one, since just having the song copy-pasted isn't all that WP:RS or useful. Thanks. Kluche (talk) 17:53, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

There is not Wikirule which tells us to do any of that. Thanks for the thought. Alltan (talk) 19:19, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

There is however, a rule which states that you need to translate the cited quote from a source if it's not in English - WP:NONENG. I suggest you do that, as I resonably presume you have knowledge in Albanian. Kluche (talk) 19:24, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

From Google Translate: "A rose on a thorn A rose on a thorn Why is the summer river coming to us, ooo ih! Summer comes and goes, Mulleza never rests. The wine is pouring and I'm leaving. The bottle doesn't match, ooo ih! Summer pours and goes, Shyshja never rests. Trandalin in cacha Three jarana paç! I promised you ooo ih! Sung: Grozda Nikolovska, born in 1932 in the village of Krakornica, Upper Reka. Recorded by: Edibe Selimi – Osmani (Osmani 2007)....The subjects who sang these songs, such as Igne Qiprovski, Ilinka Jankulloska, Grozda Nikolovska, Naza Nikolloska, Svetllana Jankullovska, Bllagorodna Ilioska, from Upper Reka, are Albanians of the Orthodox faith, who kept their native Albanian language, but converted their personal names to those of Slavic origin." Alltan (talk) 19:29, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

If you read WP:NOENG closely, it states that it's preffered if it's not a machine translation. Fortunetly, one of the translators from Albanian to English for the English Wikipedia, Maleschreiber has been active in this conversation, so I hope that he'll be able to verify the translation. Regards. Kluche (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I did read it, and I used the translation from GTranslate because it is accurate. Take care. Alltan (talk) 19:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

If it's accurate then added to the source. Regards. Kluche (talk) 19:51, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I can't because you have revert warred the source to say something it doesn't say. Alltan (talk) 20:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, I haven't touched the reference/source or the formating of the reference/source. Kluche (talk) 20:13, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The quote doesn't support your rendition of the edit, you should revert yourself so I can put the quote in. Alltan (talk) 20:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Alltan, I decided to be WP:BOLD since no one provided any argument against what I've been stating - stating the name of the song and the person from whom Osmani got it (including related information about the person) is absolutly irrelevant according to WP:NOTEVERYTHING. I trimmed that content, which is the edit you are disputing. I'll use this opprotunity to state that I intend on moving the content in question in to a more suitable category called "Culture". Meanwhile, you yourself added that source, not completly following WP:V i.e WP:NOENG. Kluche (talk) 20:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I have followed it as much as any editor should. You asked for the quote translation, I provided it.

Now, which part of WP:NOTEVERYTHING are you using to remove the material I have put in? Can you please quote the excerpt directly. Alltan (talk) 20:35, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:NOENG, the translated quote should be provided immediatly in the citation.

I'll quote the exact excerpt of WP:NOTEVERYTHING, per your request: Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject. Kluche (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Adding the fact that Albanian is still spoken in by natives of the village is not an exposition, it's quite due if anything. I do however agree the part about Orthodox faith and Macedonian names is fine to go. Please reinstate part of your edit.

Something like is acceptable as it shows people from the village still could speak the language during the studies conclusion: In 2007 author Edibe Selimi-Osmani recorded a number of folk songs of the Upper Reka region. Among these the song "Trandafil në ferrë" (rose amongst the thorns) is recorded from the Krakornica native and Albanian speaker Grozda Nikolovska. Alltan (talk) 20:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Firstly I'd like to note that this conversation might be looking like WP:HORSETRADING i.e you're stating that you will not amend the citation so it fufills WP:NOENG unless I revert my edit.

I've given my arguments as to why my edit should stay and why the song name and the name and surname of Nikolovska should not be included. I've quoted the exact excerpt of a policy from which I base my arguments, per your request.

I'd like to also point out that you stated that the source does not say that Nikolovska lives in Krakornica (right here), yet now you effectivly claim that people in Krakornica could speak Albanian until at least 2007 due to Nikolovska. Kluche (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with horse trading. Its' all about properly formulating sources. In the way you have put the text, it can be viewed as source falsifcation because Osmani the quote doesn't say she recorded Albanian songs and because it is omitting the identity of the person who interpreted the song for the study.

Besides, the excerpt you have quoted says nothing about not having song names or names of noted individuals in bibliography in articles. If we included all the names of the villagers in the article, perhaps an argument for that can be made, but in this case WP:NOTEVERYTHING does not apply. You should therefore reinstate the previous version of the edit or otherwise the version I suggested above.

Secondly read carefully, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say people in the village spoke Albanian, I said people from the village did. The source itself says she was born there in 1932 and doesn't say anything about her living anywhere else. Alltan (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

This reply might suggest WP:HORSETRADING.

The song is an Albanian language song, which the source states.

WP:NOTEVERYTHING absolutly applies here. Content on Wikipedia should be a summary, not every detail is to be included - this includes the name of the song and the name and surname of the source of the song/singer. Hell, is one song from one barely inhabited village even noteworthy? I've assumed WP:GF and have accepted your view that it is. But the name and the name and surname of the source of the song is beyond irrelevant. I'll reffer to WP:UCS.

The source states that she was born there. It doesn't say that she still does or doesn't live there. Kluche (talk) 21:39, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

That the inclusion of such information in the article is 'absurd' is your own subjective opinion. One could argue that such information is useful as it provides the reader with more context and understanding of the demographic history of the village. As for the actual source itself not being cited, why exactly does this matter? Selimi-Osmani is cited by Murati (the quote can be viewed in the article/citation) who is an academic, I'm pretty sure he did not falsify the former's claims or work. If there is reason to believe so please do share. The use of Murati in conveying Selimi-Osmani's arguments in such a manner is well within the guidelines. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 17:14, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Information is included or excluded based on WP:WEIGHT. For small (former) settlements, ethnographic works are usually included because they tend to be the only sources which depict local society and from a bibliographic perspective, readers are encouraged to explore them for more details.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:41, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Lezhjani1444, I cited a relvant Wikipedia guideline backing up my opinion.

I stated that Osmani's work is mentioned in the text, but not as a seperate reference/citation. Kluche (talk) 17:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be, as long as the edit text is found in the citation, it passes RS. Alltan (talk) 19:19, 16 April 2023 (UTC)